Can we just take a step back and look at the roster?

[impactplaya]

their is a abundance of talent on this roster.
I think Lazor got exposed for being very ridgid in his play calling and the offense suffered.
if Eifert isnt resigned then I worry about the depth at TE.
we need a 4th reciever to step up and be a key contributor on 3rd down and the red zone.
that 4th WR has bring something unique to the table.
I believe Taylor Callahan can offer fresh innovative schemes to the offense
The oline is better buy subtraction if anything.

defensively health is paramount. Id like to see Dunlap.actually get more than 7.5 sacks a year.
Somebody needs to take the heat off Geno and turn into a pocket destroyer.
LBers need a dymanic playmaker ala Odell Thurman.
secondary doesnt bother me. they finished the year strong.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(03-15-2019, 02:07 PM)Bengals731 Wrote: b]Defense
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year.

If this is the strongest group , they didn’t show it last year. I don’t disagree with you but they didn’t play great last year. Lawson getting hurt was unfortunate but he was struggling before the injury. Dunlap didn’t get enough pressure on the QB and Atkins struggled in the second half of the season. Hard for some CBs to cover that long every play, We need pass rushers. A good pass rush makes everyone look better , a bad one makes them look worse. We need to take a pass rusher at 11..

1. Yes he did (by far, he did).
2. No he didn't (sacks weren't there, everything else was).

Stop looking at sacks and look at the full body of work.

Not to mention that both are among the best at their positions, for stopping the run.

John Copeland and Geathers are NEVER brought up as being good DEs for their teams, strictly based on the fact that they didn't have gawdy sack numbers.

Yet, when it came to stopping the run, they were among the best at their position.

Its not a 1 dimensional game.

[NKURyan]

(03-15-2019, 02:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The main cast (Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlop, Burfict, Dre, Geno etc) were also parts of rosters that won 6, and then 7 games the two years prior.  It's hard to argue an anomaly with those results. Not to mention much of that same core has seen ZERO postzeason success in EIGHT seasons.

While I will agree that talks of 0-16,  or comparisons made to expansion rosters are unfair, I fail to see how any of this is supposse to inspire confidence.

Those guys were ALSO parts of rosters that won 12, 10, 11, 10, and 9 games. I guess that doesn't count for anything, though? I'd say it's hard to argue that these guys haven't had more success than failures in the league, but that won't stop people from trying. But sure, after 3 years of losing I guess they're all bums and we should just get rid of them all.

The only one of those guys you mentioned that's not still putting up the same numbers as they did back when the Bengals were winning is Vontaze. Maybe it's the rest of the guys around and behind them?

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2019, 02:42 PM)lone bengal Wrote: My point with Dalton was you almost need an all star team around him like 2015 to make it to the Super Bowl which is the ultimate goal and that a franchise qb hides some of those weakness on the roster.

If the only way your team makes it to the Super Bowl is if your QB has a 106+ passer rating then you have a lot of problems with your team.  Aaron Rodgers has had a 97+ passer rating each of the last two seasons yet he is 10-12-1 as a starter.

A team with a decent defense and running game should not have to have the leagues top rated passer in order to win, and Dalton has had decent years other than 2015.  While Rodgers has had a losing record over the last two seasons Blake Bortles has won 2 playoff games.

QB is far from the biggest problem with this team.  If we start spending all of our resources on trying to get a better QB then the team will get worse instead of better.

[fredtoast]

I agree that Dunlap and Atkins were not the main problem, but our D-line looked horrible at times last year.

Lawson and Hubbard both look like great picks, but I'd really love to bring in a better DT.

[*ochocincos*]

This team isn't really worse than last year's team given they basically have the same roster. Sure, Uzomah is the main TE now but he was essentially that last year due to injuries. RG should (hopefully) be upgraded with Miller over Redmond. Defense is basically the same except swap out Dennard for Webb.

There's still potentially 1-2 more FAs that could be signed and then the draft. If they nail the draft, they could get a few immediate upgrades. I don't really see the FA activity this year affecting the draft. LB and OL still the biggest needs. A TE (and maybe nickel DT) should also factor into draft plans.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2019, 05:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This team isn't really worse than last year's team given they basically have the same roster. Sure, Uzomah is the main TE now but he was essentially that last year due to injuries. RG should (hopefully) be upgraded with Miller over Redmond. Defense is basically the same except swap out Dennard for Webb.

There's still potentially 1-2 more FAs that could be signed and then the draft. If they nail the draft, they could get a few immediate upgrades. I don't really see the FA activity this year affecting the draft. LB and OL still the biggest needs. A TE (and maybe nickel DT) should also factor into draft plans.

A lot of people will dismiss this as "homer talk" but I think the 2019 version of Price will be like adding a totally different player if he can stay healthy and work out all offseason.  He was barely cleared in time to start training camp last year.  That had to really hurt his performance as a rookie

[ezekiel23]

Bare in mind,they were plagued with injuries last year.Ever lost our starting quarterback.Improving the offensive line,And Drafting Devin White,would make me more optimistic though.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-15-2019, 02:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tbh, I never thought our "roster" was bad. We just had a couple position groups (o-line and LB's) that were so terrible that it sank the team. Fix those and I'd say Zac Taylor has no excuses not to win in 2019. Signing John Miller was a solid start. The Hart signing is puzzling though.

We obviously won't be switching him to Guard, and it's hard to see them paying $7 million for a backup Tackle, so I'd say we won't be drafting a Tackle at 11. So unless Price, Glenn and Hart show improvement, this still looks like a group capable of allowing 50 sacks and lots of pressure.

That said, maybe we actually will take a Tackle at 11. The market is crazy right now and we had to have a backup plan in case that Tackle isn't there in the draft. That's an expensive insurance policy, but it's not like we had much choice. Theoretically.

It's also possible we signed Hart because we're going QB at 11.

II think we signed Hart because we are going LB with #11

[Shouldamapads]

Andy Dalton has only been good when he's been protected, but it is not different for any other QB.

We need a solid line period.

Second, the defense was torched repeatedly on third down because the LBs couldn't cover anyone.

We're not drafting QBs, we need OL and LBs.

Are there some bones to build from, yes. Can a Superbowl be had without at least some decent FA help? I have my doubts.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-15-2019, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A lot of people will dismiss this as "homer talk" but I think the 2019 version of Price will be like adding a totally different player if he can stay healthy and work out all offseason.  He was barely cleared in time to start training camp last year.  That had to really hurt his performance as a rookie

Yes, I mentioned this in the John Miller thread.  Having a healthy and fully prepared Billy Price should make a significant difference in how the OL looks.  Also, with John Miller being a pretty good run blocker, that makes defenses have to respect the possibility of running on 3rd and 3 or less.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-15-2019, 06:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, I mentioned this in the John Miller thread.  Having a healthy and fully prepared Billy Price should make a significant difference in how the OL looks.  Also, with John Miller being a pretty good run blocker, that makes defenses have to respect the possibility of running on 3rd and 3 or less.

I suggest you replace Billy Price with Cedric Ogbuehi in your sentence and realize how much that sounds like people heading into the 2016 season.


- - - - - -

John Miller was rated the 43rd best run-blocking guard by PFF. I don't know if I would call that pretty good.

While he only allowed 1 sack last year in pass blocking, he allowed 30 pressures.

He's an upgrade for sure, but only because Redmond was so terrible.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-15-2019, 06:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I suggest you replace Billy Price with Cedric Ogbuehi in your sentence and realize how much that sounds like people heading into the 2016 season.


- - - - - -

John Miller was rated the 43rd best run-blocking guard by PFF. I don't know if I would call that pretty good.

While he only allowed 1 sack last year in pass blocking, he allowed 30 pressures.

He's an upgrade for sure, but only because Redmond was so terrible.

Hey, I was going off of the quote in the John Miller thread, where his run blocking grade was 76.something and his pass blocking grade was 56.8ish.  Now, I really don't put two shits worth of stock into PFF numbers, as no one can seem to explain how they come to those numbers.  However, as long as we're using them as out point of reference, how many Guards qualified for ratings last year?

[*jason*]

(03-15-2019, 02:35 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: To me, this is where Erickson could excel.  And, for the love of Pete, get more use out of Bernard this year!

I'm convinced the Gio is a borderline pro bowler if he plays for NE. I think he's the most underutilized guy on the damn team.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2019, 06:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I suggest you replace Billy Price with Cedric Ogbuehi in your sentence and realize how much that sounds like people heading into the 2016 season.

Ogbuehi has nothing to do with this.

Do you really think it makes no difference if a rookie O-lineman is able to lift and workout for an entire offseason?  Seems like you are ignoring logic in order to get your whine on.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-15-2019, 05:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree that Dunlap and Atkins were not the main problem, but our D-line looked horrible at times last year.

Lawson and Hubbard both look like great picks, but I'd really love to bring in a better DT.

Glasgow was showing a lot of promise until the injury. I'm anxious to see if it was a flash in the pan or not ?

[Brownshoe]

(03-15-2019, 02:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Has he ever played LT? If he's capable of swinging to both spots, that would obviously increase his value as a backup. $7 million is still high for a backup though. IIRC, he has the 7th biggest cap figure among RT's for 2019. Obviously, that screams starter money.

Harts cap hit is about 5 mil a year. They reported his numbers wrong at first 

[SunsetBengal]

(03-15-2019, 06:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I suggest you replace Billy Price with Cedric Ogbuehi in your sentence and realize how much that sounds like people heading into the 2016 season.


- - - - - -

John Miller was rated the 43rd best run-blocking guard by PFF. I don't know if I would call that pretty good.

While he only allowed 1 sack last year in pass blocking, he allowed 30 pressures.

He's an upgrade for sure, but only because Redmond was so terrible.

I missed the quote, due to your overhearing sig line, in my last response..

So, in your mind, Billy Price = Cedric Ogbuehi?  Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.  Billy Price made his reputation on being physically aggressive, I've never seen or read a word on Ogbuehi that would claim the same.  A destroyed knee vs. a freak torn pec, are two entirely different situations.  

If Billy Price comes out this year and flounders?  I'll give you all the credit for "calling it", but right now?  I'm not buying it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-15-2019, 01:45 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Mixed in with all of the anger and frustration over free agency I'm seeing phrases like "worst in the NFL", "expansion team", and "tank", but can we just actually look at our roster for a second and reflect on this? Because I think that people are vastly exaggerating just how bad this roster actually is...

Offense -
QB: Andy Dalton*, 21 TDs to 11 INTs last year, was on pace for 3700 yards, has had a good-to-great career here despite naysayers
WR1: AJ Green*, was on pace for 81 catches and 1200 yards last season, Hall of Fame caliber player
WR2: Tyler Boyd*, 76 catches, 1028 yards, despite missing 2 games last year
RB1: Joe Mixon*, 1168 yards, averaging 4.9 a carry, led the AFC in rushing. Also had 43 catches for almost 300 yards.
RB2: Gio Bernard*, shifty runner and good receiver, averaged over 4.6 a carry in starts last season.
TE: CJ Uzomah*, not great, but still had 43 receptions for 439 yards while playing hurt (18th in the league in yards). The rest of our TEs are not sorted out yet, but I think they'll bring back Tyler Eifert*, and wee know what he can do if healthy. I'll take those 2.
OL: Cordy Glenn and Clint Boling* were fine. Billy Price* struggled as a rookie, so you give him a little leeway there. Alex Redmond* and Bobby Hart were not good. Hopkins played well as a backup last year, and Westerman has his fans while buried in the depth chart.

Defense -
DL: Still IMO the strongest position group on the team - you've got Atkins* and Dunlap*, and then young guys who have shown potential like Hubbard*, Willis*, and Lawson*. Andrew Billings* was graded as the most improved player on the team last year and played well. Glasgow* and Washington appear to provide solid depth at DT.
Secondary: William Jackson* is really, really good, and if last year was a disappointment it's primarily because of how high expectations were going in. Tyler Bates* had a great rookie year. Shawn Williams* is solid. Dre Kirkpatrick* is... well, let's go with serviceable. There's isn't much behind any of these guys.
Linebacker: If DL is the strongest position group, then this is by far the weakest. Vontaze Burfict* appears to be a shell of himself if he can even stay on the field. Nick Vigil* appears to be average, not necessarily someone you'd want starting. Preston Brown was hurt all of last year and has detractors, but he has led the NFL in tackles before as well. They don't have much behind these three, either.

So what does this tell me?
1) That no team with that much talent at the offensive skill positions is going to be the "worst in the league" or "expansion" level.
2) That since every player marked with a * was drafted by this front office, they're nowhere near as clueless as people like to pretend.
3) That the primary needs to address are linebacker, the right side of the OL, and TE (assuming they don't re-sign Eifert). I think these are what they grab with their first few picks.
4) That if you're planning to address those in the draft, the main focus in free agency should be depth, particularly in the secondary and wide receiver.

What the responses will be:
1) "Yeah, but these guys won 6 games last year." Would you say that is solely a product of the talent (many of whom got hurt, remember)?
2) "If those defensive guys are so good, why did they finish dead last in the league last year in defense?" Mostly coaching, IMO, and you can see that since they improved as soon as they ditched their DC. I believe the old expression that players and units generally "play to the back of their cards", so to speak, so I'll chalk it up as an outlier for now.
3) "Do you really think these guys have a shot next year?" Maybe, depending on if certain things fall the right way. I'm not writing them off just yet.
4) "Homer!" Do you really deny the talent this team has at the offensive skill positions and defensive lines? I've acknowledged where they need help, but it's not exactly everywhere on the field either. They have some real strengths out there.

AJ went out really early in the NO game, iirc. Like the first drive wasn’t it? So with 46 rec 694 yds 6 TD through 8 games he was actually more on pace for 90 rec 1400 yds 12 TD.

[NKURyan]

(03-16-2019, 12:52 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: AJ went out really early in the NO game, iirc. Like the first drive wasn’t it? So with 46 rec 694 yds 6 TD through 8 games he was actually more on pace for 90 rec 1400 yds 12 TD.

I couldn't remember... I just counted his games started as full games to keep the math a bit simpler.