Bengals history of making lemonade out of lemons

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-09-2019, 08:33 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Case Keenum may have been their 3rd stringer, but he also had starting experience in the league and was even then probably better than most teams backup QB. Since then, Minnesota has spent quite a bit of money on the position and they took a step backwards.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but we'll never know. All I'm saying is that he hasn't exactly lit the world on fire yet.

I also think it would be pretty hard for a coach to do better than Lewis did with the 2015 team, even if it ultimately left a very bitter taste in our mouths.. I put a lot of the blame for the playoff loss on Marvin's shoulders, but at the same time he had an AJ McCarron-led team leading a heavily favored Steelers team with minutes left to play, and I think that does count for something.

The Steelers team was only heavily favored because they were going against Marvin in the playoffs. They had one of the worst passing defenses in the league in '15.

Honestly, as much of a letdown that '15 team was, the '13 was just as much of one against a bad Chargers team.

Mark Sanchez, TJ Yates, Matt Schaub.... those aren't Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees. Should done more. A potential big string of seasons squandered.

[Bryan]

(04-09-2019, 08:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The Steelers team was only heavily favored because they were going against Marvin in the playoffs. They had one of the worst passing defenses in the league in '15.

Honestly, as much of a letdown that '15 team was, the '13 was just as much of one against a bad Chargers team.

Mark Sanchez, TJ Yates, Matt Schaub.... those aren't Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers/Drew Brees. Should done more. A potential big string of seasons squandered.

Freakin TJ Yates. Is that dude even still in the league?

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2019, 07:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They won a postseason game in 2017 with their 3rd string QB in Case Keenum. 

Thanks to the luckiest catch in playoff history.

In his other two postseason games the Vikes blew a two-score lead in the fourth quarter and then got blown out by 31.

[fredtoast]

(04-09-2019, 08:56 PM)Bryan Wrote: Freakin TJ Yates. Is that dude even still in the league?

Yates career record as a starter

2-0 versus Bengals

3-7 versus rest of league

[Bryan]

(04-09-2019, 09:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yates career record as a starter

2-0 versus Bengals

3-7 versus rest of league

That's just sad

[Shake n Blake]

(04-09-2019, 09:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yates career record as a starter

2-0 versus Bengals

3-7 versus rest of league

...and it's not like his team really carried him to those wins, either. He played a very active role in getting the W's.

20-19 win - 300 yards - 2 TDs - 85.4 rating
10-6 win - 69 yards - 1 TD - 96.4 rating (came off the bench and threw a TD to take the lead permanently)
31-10 win - 159 yards - 1 TD - 97.7 rating (playoff game)

Yates vs Bengals - 4 TDs to 1 INT - 90.3 rating - 3 wins, 0 losses (counting the one off the bench)
Yates vs everyone else - 7 TDs to 13 INTs - 62.8 rating - 4 wins, 8 losses (counting all games with 10+ attempts)

[NKURyan]

(04-09-2019, 08:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The Steelers team was only heavily favored because they were going against Marvin in the playoffs. They had one of the worst passing defenses in the league in '15.

...which is mitigated when you've got AJ McCarron playing QB for the Bengals instead of an MVP-caliber Andy Dalton. Knock Mark Sanchez and Matt Schaub if you want, both of those guys are better QBs than McCarron was.

That said, I'm not disagreeing with your point. The Bengals absolutely should've won a few of those games. Hell, outside of the Houston games I was at all of them lol. All I'm saying is, I'm not sure too many other coaches would've pulled off a win against Pittsburgh in '15 without Dalton, and even fewer would've gotten a playoff win with the few guys they had left in the Indy game in '14 (which would've been coached by Zimmer under your suggestion).

2012 and 2013 were the two games Marvin absolutely should have won. 2009 is debatable in my eyes, because I'm not sure that team was really all that good to begin with.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-10-2019, 01:26 AM)NKURyan Wrote: ...which is mitigated when you've got AJ McCarron playing QB for the Bengals instead of an MVP-caliber Andy Dalton. Knock Mark Sanchez and Matt Schaub if you want, both of those guys are better QBs than McCarron was.

That said, I'm not disagreeing with your point. The Bengals absolutely should've won a few of those games. Hell, outside of the Houston games I was at all of them lol. All I'm saying is, I'm not sure too many other coaches would've pulled off a win against Pittsburgh in '15 without Dalton, and even fewer would've gotten a playoff win with the few guys they had left in the Indy game in '14 (which would've been coached by Zimmer under your suggestion).

2012 and 2013 were the two games Marvin absolutely should have won. 2009 is debatable in my eyes, because I'm not sure that team was really all that good to begin with.

Everyone brings up McCarron, but we lost to TJ Yates and Mark Sanchez (and yes, Sanchez is just as bad and Yates is actually worse). They also forget that the Steelers were without Ben for a stretch (which played heavily in our comeback) and they were rotating guys named Todman and Toussaint (?) at RB (Bell and DeAngelo Williams were out). Both players had huge games somehow.

Everyone brings up how many of our receivers were hurt against Indy, but forgets that the Colts were playing their 4th string RB (Boom Herron). They got a huge game out of some guy that we cut from our practice squad. Boom Herron outplayed Jeremy Hill. A guy who had 1100 yards on 5.1 YPC that year. Is that making lemonade out of lemons? 

- We should've won in 2005 even with Jon Kitna. We had a 17-7 lead. We fell apart in the 2nd half, which was a common theme in the playoffs.

- We should've won in 2009. Were the 9-7 Jets more talented than us? A team led by Mark Sanchez? No defensive stars outside of Revis? We were at home, too.

- We at least should've been competitive in 2011 against TJ Yates. 

- 2012 I excuse somewhat, because it was a road game against a solid QB and we did keep it close.

- 2013 was a disgrace.

- 2014 should've been more competitive than it was. Missing some WR's doesn't excuse away our defense giving up 376 yards passing (Luck's 3rd best total that year), giving up 141 yards to Boom Herron, or not getting anything out of Jeremy Hill (who was having his best year).

- 2015 was an odd one. I want to partially excuse it because we were starting McCarron, but (1) we were at home, (2) the Steelers got 183 yards out of their 3rd and 4th string RB's, (3) Ben was hurt for 3 series and (4) we had the lead only to lose in embarrassing fashion. 

Obviously we can't win them all, but I'd say we should've had at least 2-3 of these.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-09-2019, 08:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks to the luckiest catch in playoff history.

In his other two postseason games the Vikes blew a two-score lead in the fourth quarter and then got blown out by 31.

As a fan, would you rather;  Win by the luckiest catch in playoff history, or lose by the luckiest catch in playoff history?

Side note:  I'm not even sure that is the luckiest catch in Playoff history.  I'm sure that if you talk to Patriots fans, they'd likely mention that one led to their demise in the Super Bowl, a few years ago. (vs. Giants)

Or, we can scroll back even further in history and ask Oakland Raiders fans about the "immaculate" reception.

[NKURyan]

(04-10-2019, 11:16 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Everyone brings up McCarron, but we lost to TJ Yates and Mark Sanchez (and yes, Sanchez is just as bad and Yates is actually worse). They also forget that the Steelers were without Ben for a stretch (which played heavily in our comeback) and they were rotating guys named Todman and Toussaint (?) at RB (Bell and DeAngelo Williams were out). Both players had huge games somehow.

Everyone brings up how many of our receivers were hurt against Indy, but forgets that the Colts were playing their 4th string RB (Boom Herron). They got a huge game out of some guy that we cut from our practice squad. Boom Herron outplayed Jeremy Hill. A guy who had 1100 yards on 5.1 YPC that year. Is that making lemonade out of lemons? 

- We should've won in 2005 even with Jon Kitna. We had a 17-7 lead. We fell apart in the 2nd half, which was a common theme in the playoffs.

- We should've won in 2009. Were the 9-7 Jets more talented than us? A team led by Mark Sanchez? No defensive stars outside of Revis? We were at home, too.

- We at least should've been competitive in 2011 against TJ Yates. 

- 2012 I excuse somewhat, because it was a road game against a solid QB and we did keep it close.

- 2013 was a disgrace.

- 2014 should've been more competitive than it was. Missing some WR's doesn't excuse away our defense giving up 376 yards passing (Luck's 3rd best total that year), giving up 141 yards to Boom Herron, or not getting anything out of Jeremy Hill (who was having his best year).

- 2015 was an odd one. I want to partially excuse it because we were starting McCarron, but (1) we were at home, (2) the Steelers got 183 yards out of their 3rd and 4th string RB's, (3) Ben was hurt for 3 series and (4) we had the lead only to lose in embarrassing fashion. 

Obviously we can't win them all, but I'd say we should've had at least 2-3 of these.

In 2005, you had a very young team with no playoff experience going up against one of the premier franchises in the NFL. I don't agree that it was a game they necessarily should've won.

2009 as I said is pretty even in my eyes. You had a Bengals team that noone had any real preseason expectations for that lost 3 of their last 4 games playing a Jets team that won 5 of their last 6. That Jets team didn't only beat us in the playoffs, either, they made it to the conference championship game.

Losing to TJ Yates sounds bad, but the 2011 team was a team that came out of nowhere, barely made the playoffs, and were playing Houston in their first home playoff game as the Texans. Arian Foster ran over them.

2013, yeah. Can't argue that one, that was just some awful coaching all around, including Zimmer's defense giving up almost 200 yards on the ground.

They were missing more than just their wide receivers in that game. Besides his top two WRs, they also were missing their #1 TE, several linebackers (Burfict and Mauluga), their right tackle... I remember wondering how they were going to win on the drive to Indy that day. As for Jeremy Hill, well... I think we know what he is now, and his 2014 was the exception and not the rule.

2015, again, I give the advantage to the Steelers going in. I figured going into that game that to have any chance the defense would have to play the game of their lives - and they did, until the last few minutes. I shrug off the Steelers RB situation simply because the Steelers have proven time and time again they can plug in just about anybody back there and have success. Yeah, Big Ben left for a little bit and that helped, but Gio Bernard got stretchered off and that hurt. Plus it's just the fact that the Bengals were going up against their biggest rivals (who own them) at home (where they never beat the Steelers) during primetime (where they struggle) in the playoffs (where they never win) and you had to know that was going to be an uphill battle anyways.

How many of these games were the Bengals actually favored in? Definitely one (SD), but maybe two (SD and NYJ)? The only game I remember feeling extraordinarily confident about was the Chargers game.

[sonofstat]

(04-08-2019, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I posted a thread asking what the Bengals had done right over the last decade.  That decade includes the '09 team and after looking closely I'd say the best thing the Bengals did on 2009 was make lemonade out of lemons.

- leading rusher, Cedric Benson had been signed off the street in the middle of the previous season after being released by the Bears.

- O-line was mostly comprised of undrafted free agents (Nate Livings) and players released by other teams (Dennis Roland-Bears, Kyle Cook-Vikings, Evan Mathis-Dolphins)

- leading tackler, Dhani Jones, had also been signed off the street in the middle of the previous year after the Saints had released him.

- both starting safeties were signed after being cut (Roy Williams-Cowboys, Chris Crocker-Browns)

- placekicker, Shayne Graham, had been cut by the Panthers.

- both of out TEs (Danial Coats, J.P. Foschi) were undrafted free agents who had been with other teams

- OLB Rashad Jenty had been signed out of the CFL.


Then next year, 2010, we added Adam Jones who had been cut by multiple teams, and Reggie Nelson who was considered such a bust in Jacksonville that we were able to get him in trade for a back up DB, David Jones, who barely played for us.

2011 we signed WR Andrew Hawkins out of the CFL.  We signed 2 free agent LBs who were not really "busts" but had not lived up to their First Round Draft status (Manny Lawson, Thomas Howard), and Nate Clements who had been cut by the Forty-niners.

2012 we signed Terrance Newman who had been released by the Cowboys and Wallace Gilberry who had been cut by the Chiefs.  Also added undrafted free agent Vontaze Burfict.

But then after that the stream of successful reclamation projects seemed to dry up.  We Signed Michael Johnson in 2015 after Tampa Bay released him and Brandon LaFell in 2016 after he was cit by the Patriots, but most of the other signings of older or troubled players seemed to work out.  I don't even remember if Harrison, Hawk, Dansby, or Minter had been cut or not before we signed them.

Honestly of all of them I still say the Reggie Nelson trade was the prime example of lemonade out of lemons...

we had 6 years of fantastic production out of him but even above the numbers which were good he seemed to get the whole secondary lined up , and had that apparent knack for getting in Big Ben's head.

Great player for us and he's the reason why i was delighted to see us get Jessie Bates and see him develop because i was never a real fan of the Ilolka & William, two box safety / hitters approach at safety.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-12-2019, 08:09 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Honestly of all of them I still say the Reggie Nelson trade was the prime example of lemonade out of lemons...

we had 6 years of fantastic production out of him but even above the numbers which were good he seemed to get the whole secondary lined up , and had that apparent knack for getting in Big Ben's head.

Great player for us and he's the reason why i was delighted to see us get Jessie Bates and see him develop because i was never a real fan of the Ilolka & William, two box safety / hitters approach at safety.

I agree that Reggie was great for us, but I didn't really see him as quite the lemon people painted him as, coming out of Jacksonville. He had a very promising rookie season with 5 INT's and 11 passes defensed.

So he showed potential. What he got benched over in season 3 (giving up a big play because he went for a strip) was something that was easily fixable.

Imo we got lucky that JDR gave up on a good player because he was pissed off. It was more that than us turning trash into a diamond.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2019, 11:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree that Reggie was great for us, but I didn't really see him as quite the lemon people painted him as,

I was just pointing out how cheaply we obtained him.  

I am a big SEC fan and I was really impressed with Nelson at Florida.  I wanted us to draft him.  Jacksonville took him in the middle of the first round.  Hee had lots of skills, but he just did not shine for the Jags,