What type of improvements can we expect in player development from coaching?

[THE PISTONS]

I occasionally read on the boards that changing coaches will help player development. Kind of like ZT will sprinkle his magic fairy dust over the roster and our Madden ratings will raise from 59 to 73.

This isn't new. Last year, Pollack was expected to do the same thing with the offensive line. It's really hard to compare the work he did though because the line had 4 new starters (Hart/Redmond/Price/Glenn). The line was slightly better than the year before, but still a bottom 5 offensive line.

Then, there was Austin. He was brought in to revive the defense after Guenther left and we saw that disaster unfold. The thing is, Austin was fairly well regarded around the league as a young defensive mind.

Then, Lazor took over for Zampese. Once, again...let the lazor show begin! The offense was good at times early last year, but when Eifert got hurt the wheels came off.

What improvements can we realistically expect as far as player development from these new coaches? Should we expect 800 yards from Ross? 100 Tackles from Jefferson? 6 sacks from Billings?

[BengalChris]

Marvin Lewis was the cause of all the team's problems, obviously!

In all seriousness though I don't think we can predict what our underachievers will accomplish in 2019.

Jefferson barely made it on the field last year and presumably this was because he doesn't have a head for the game. Even though he is clearly much faster than Burfict was coming out, Burfict, when his head is in the game, generally understood what the offense was trying to do and made up for his lack of speed by knowing where to be. Can they make Jefferson more football smart? Don't know, but I'm inclined to believe there are limits.

Billings and Malone are two guys I believe will show up better in 2019. Billings because he's one year removed from the injury and for guys his size that year makes a difference. For Malone he seemed to regress last year, so we know he can play better.

Hart's upside, Webb's upside and some other veterans probably won't see their ceilings raise much.

For Ross it all comes down to his route and field awareness, plus his hands. Can the coaches coach more field awareness into him? Who knows? But I do believe Ross is the guy who could most use a new HC. I still believe it was Ross' agent who circulated the rumors that the Bengals were looking to trade him.

Hopefully we'll see some innovative play design that will maximize player strengths and minimize the exposure of their weaknesses. That will help some. Ross is a guy who may benefit from this. But last year so many predicted he'd be great and he wasn't.

One thing I believe about Taylor is that he'll put the best players on the field regardless of draft position and that could help some guys, and hurt some others. What will Bernard's numbers be like? Will Uzi even get the same playing time?

[fredtoast]

I don't see coaching making that big of a difference in player development, but I hope to see numbers improve across the board due to better scheme.

Just having better luck with injuries will improve a lot of things. Lawson is one of our best defensive players, and Price was a first round pick who could not work out last off season and then got injured during the season. Having both of those guys 100% healthy should make a noticeable difference.

Coaches seem to get a lot smarter when they have more good healthy players to work with.

[*Nately120*]

I'll admit I was one of the "anyone but Marvin, because why the hell not?" club, so take that for what it's worth. 2018 stunk and we are more than happy to blame that on coaching, so if 2019 is NOT quite good I'm thinking the players are going to be the first ones thrown under the bus...maybe. It didn't take us long to turn on Zampese/Austin/Lazor, so I can see Jim Turner and that DC we have with the name I can't remember heading for the doughouse in a hurry if things go sideways.

Turner and the DC have lousy resumes and they are taking over aspects of this team that were the absolute pits last year...so, ehh...heads could roll pretty quickly. Methinks Dalton/Green/ZT are untouchable this year (as in we will say that Montana/Rice/Bellichick couldn't succeed here) unless they really fall on their faces, so I expect the side players/coaches to bear the brunt of our anger if things aren't good.

Or things could be great in 2019 and it won't matter.

[Whatever]

(05-09-2019, 09:42 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I occasionally read on the boards that changing coaches will help player development. Kind of like ZT will sprinkle his magic fairy dust over the roster and our Madden ratings will raise from 59 to 73.

This isn't new. Last year, Pollack was expected to do the same thing with the offensive line. It's really hard to compare the work he did though because the line had 4 new starters (Hart/Redmond/Price/Glenn). The line was slightly better than the year before, but still a bottom 5 offensive line.

Then, there was Austin. He was brought in to revive the defense after Guenther left and we saw that disaster unfold. The thing is, Austin was fairly well regarded around the league as a young defensive mind.

Then, Lazor took over for Bratkowski. Once, again...let the lazor show begin! The offense was good at times early last year, but when Eifert got hurt the wheels came off.

What improvements can we realistically expect as far as player development from these new coaches? Should we expect 800 yards from Ross? 100 Tackles from Jefferson? 6 sacks from Billings?

Young players tend to trend upwards while they're on their rookie deals.  They become accustomed to the speed of the game and have time and coaching to address weaknesses in their game.  You have to remember that the Bengals were the youngest team in the league last year.  A majority of the roster is still in that initial development curve.

Personally, I'm an iron sharpens iron type of guy, and when I hear stuff like Marvin not wanting the offense to show up the defense in practice, that sounds counterintuitive to me.  You want the guys pushing each other to the limits in practice so they can get better.  Holding one unit back hurts everyone's development.

Under Marvin, we also seemed to have a lot of favorite playing.  There were certain guys who were Marvin's boys and were going to play regardless of how they actually played.  That breeds complacency, and that's the enemy of development.  We'll have to see how Zac does in this regard long term, but at least this year, those guys will be sweating for their spots.  Conversely, there were always guys that played well when given the opportunity, but always seemed to be in Marvin's doghouse.

Another related issue seemed to be a lack of scheme flexibility under Marvin. It always seemed like we had some square pegs in round holes and the system wasn't really tailored to the player's strengths.  For example, WJ3 is a great man CB, but we bring in Austin and have him running a bunch of zone concepts.

[*bengalfan74*]

Coaching matters and there's little doubt about it. Has ZT pushed the right buttons with the staff ? Hard to say at this point.

But I believe even taking it a step further ZT and Co. need to change the culture here, this team has to learn how to win ! We've all seen ML standing on the sidelines with the 1,000 yard stare going on watching yet another Bengals implosion with no idea how to stop the bleeding, anytime the heat was truly on.

Can ZT and staff give this team the confidence they never had under ML ?

[Sweetness]

(05-09-2019, 12:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't see coaching making that big of a difference in player development, but I hope to see numbers improve across the board due to better scheme.

This. McVay isn't some amazing wizard who magically made the Rams bigger, faster, and stronger. He just has a good scheme that uses his players to the best of their specific abilities. He doesn't force people to play outside of their role. Fisher, like Marvin, was archaic and didn't evolve his scheme with the times or players. 

Obviously it's not all on them but they also employ the coaches who implement the scheme. The hope is Taylor and his hires will put players in better places to succeed versus magically making them better through coaching. 

[*jason*]

What's the LB coach's name? Tem? Anyway... From what little I've seen of that guy he is a ball of enthusiasm, and seems to be a teacher. I personally expect a big turnaround in LB play this season. Haslett's name was mud when he got here. I'm not laying all the blame for their piss poor performance in him, but I think he was part of it.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 12:45 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Coaching matters and there's little doubt about it. Has ZT pushed the right buttons with the staff ? Hard to say at this point.

But I believe even taking it a step further ZT and Co. need to change the culture here, this team has to learn how to win ! We've all seen ML standing on the sidelines with the 1,000 yard stare going on watching yet another Bengals implosion with no idea how to stop the bleeding, anytime the heat was truly on.

Can ZT and staff give this team the confidence they never had under ML ?

I think all this talk of "culture" and "motivation" and "pushing buttons" is mostly BS.

If a team is getting beaten on the field the coach has to make some change in scheme or personnel.  I don't believe jumping up and down and saying "Yipee!! You can do it!" or pitching a hissy fit makes any difference at all.  It might help some high school kids, but I don't see it working with grown men.

There have been great coaches who were very fiery and there have been great coaches who were stoic.  There have been terrible coaches who were very emotional and terrible coaches who were very stoic.  At the NFL level coaching is about being smarter not about emotional speeches or squealing louder.

The only way a coach can motivate a team is to show them that he has the brains to help them win.  And the best coaches win in the week before a game instead of on the sidelines.

[yang]

I have no evidence any of these coaches will be more effective in player development than the previous regime. Most are umproven or have sketchy records to begin with. It's like we raided the Dolphins and Raiders coaching pool and I am not sure why. There was nothing there to be positive about to begin with.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2019, 01:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think all this talk of "culture" and "motivation" and "pushing buttons" is mostly BS.

If a team is getting beaten on the field the coach has to make some change in scheme or personnel.  I don't believe jumping up and down and saying "Yipee!! You can do it!" or pitching a hissy fit makes any difference at all.  It might help some high school kids, but I don't see it working with grown men.

There have been great coaches who were very fiery and there have been great coaches who were stoic.  There have been terrible coaches who were very emotional and terrible coaches who were very stoic.  At the NFL level coaching is about being smarter not about emotional speeches or squealing louder.

The only way a coach can motivate a team is to show them that he has the brains to help them win.  And the best coaches win in the week before a game instead of on the sidelines.

I disagree, fear is a huge motivator. Fear of losing playing time, fear of losing the game, fear of losing respect of your coaches and teammates and ultimately losing your income/job if you do not perform.

Motivation comes in many forms and yes they are adults, but they are also human beings. I am not saying get in their face every minute, but they do need to know who is in charge and the consequences for missing assignments or not getting great results. I think BB is a master at development of players, holding accountability and motivating his players by fear and positive reinforcement.

[XenoMorph]

well Lazor took over for Zampese who took over for Hue who took over for Jay who had taken over for Bratkowski.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 01:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I disagree, fear is a huge motivator. Fear of losing playing time, fear of losing the game, fear of losing respect of your coaches and teammates and ultimately losing your income/job if you do not perform.

The players already know all of this.  

(05-09-2019, 01:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think BB is a master at development of players, holding accountability and motivating his players by fear and positive reinforcement.

BB has a lot of draft picks and free agents that flop.  What did he get out of Haynesworth and Ocho?

BB wins because he is smarter than other coaches not because he benches players more often or yells louder.  Players have more confidence playing under BB because BB is smarter, not because he "pushes their buttons" better. 

The only way to get players to "believe they can win" is to win.  It is that simple.  Every coach on the planet tells his players they can win, but it is meaningless if they don't win.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-09-2019, 12:45 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Coaching matters and there's little doubt about it. Has ZT pushed the right buttons with the staff ? Hard to say at this point.

But I believe even taking it a step further ZT and Co. need to change the culture here, this team has to learn how to win ! We've all seen ML standing on the sidelines with the 1,000 yard stare going on watching yet another Bengals implosion with no idea how to stop the bleeding, anytime the heat was truly on.

Can ZT and staff give this team the confidence they never had under ML ?

Have no fear! Bringing assistants and position coaches in from the Raiders, Dolphins, and Giants will instill that winning attitude! 

[THE PISTONS]

(05-09-2019, 12:56 PM)Sweetness Wrote: This. McVay isn't some amazing wizard who magically made the Rams bigger, faster, and stronger. He just has a good scheme that uses his players to the best of their specific abilities. He doesn't force people to play outside of their role. Fisher, like Marvin, was archaic and didn't evolve his scheme with the times or players. 

Obviously it's not all on them but they also employ the coaches who implement the scheme. The hope is Taylor and his hires will put players in better places to succeed versus magically making them better through coaching. 

The Rams did add several really good free agents and acquire players via trade. The Rams improved their roster on paper and brought in McVay.

Add Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins, Andrew Whitworth, Kayvon Webster, Connor Barwin, and John Sullivan to our roster and we'd be a lot better too. Then, the next year they added Suh.

The Bengals? I can't really say outside of Williams that we're guaranteed to have upgraded any position.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2019, 01:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The players already know all of this.  


BB has a lot of draft picks and free agents that flop.  What did he get out of Haynesworth and Ocho?

BB wins because he is smarter than other coaches not because he benches players more often or yells louder.  Players have more confidence playing under BB because BB is smarter, not because he "pushes their buttons" better. 

The only way to get players to "believe they can win" is to win.  It is that simple.  Every coach on the planet tells his players they can win, but it is meaningless if they don't win.

A have a question for you Fred. What expertise do you have in business leading hundreds of people or coaching background? 

The player already know all of this is BS. Great coaches remind their employees their job is on the line when they need to motivate them. I agree BB does win because he is smarter, but to say he does not motivate better is an argument you lose 99% of the time because it is proven great leaders are not just smarter, they are great leaders because they have an ability to lead multiple personalities in multiple ways. Winners are leaders and BB is a winner.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-09-2019, 09:42 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I occasionally read on the boards that changing coaches will help player development. Kind of like ZT will sprinkle his magic fairy dust over the roster and our Madden ratings will raise from 59 to 73.

This isn't new. Last year, Pollack was expected to do the same thing with the offensive line. It's really hard to compare the work he did though because the line had 4 new starters (Hart/Redmond/Price/Glenn). The line was slightly better than the year before, but still a bottom 5 offensive line.

Then, there was Austin. He was brought in to revive the defense after Guenther left and we saw that disaster unfold. The thing is, Austin was fairly well regarded around the league as a young defensive mind.

Then, Lazor took over for Bratkowski. Once, again...let the lazor show begin! The offense was good at times early last year, but when Eifert got hurt the wheels came off.

What improvements can we realistically expect as far as player development from these new coaches? Should we expect 800 yards from Ross? 100 Tackles from Jefferson? 6 sacks from Billings?

Lazor replaced Zampese not Brat.

I'm trying to believe the coaches when they say they will unleash Ross. I'm predicting 600 yards and 5 TDs. I know that's not "unleashing" but I think it's a more realistic prediction given he's like 4th in the pecking order as a receiver. I think between Hubbard and Willis we see at least 9 sacks. I think Billings gets 4 sacks. If Sample is truly used a good amount, I think he'll have 300-400 yards and 3-5 TDs. I think Pratt will see more playing time over Jefferson due to his ability in the run game.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-09-2019, 01:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Lazor replaced Zampese not Brat.

I'm trying to believe the coaches when they say they will unleash Ross. I'm predicting 600 yards and 5 TDs. I know that's not "unleashing" but I think it's a more realistic prediction given he's like 4th in the pecking order as a receiver. I think between Hubbard and Willis we see at least 9 sacks. I think Billings gets 4 sacks. If Sample is truly used a good amount, I think he'll have 300-400 yards and 3-5 TDs. I think Pratt will see more playing time over Jefferson due to his ability in the run game.

By unleash Ross...I think they have to NOT just send him deep every play and instead let him run routes.

IF you forced me to make a case why I think he'll never be a good Pro it would be after Boyd and Green were out last year, he got #1 WR opportunities and was still bad. No clue IF ZT can fix him.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 01:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The player already know all of this is BS. Greta coaches remind their employees their job is on the line when they need to motivate them.

No they don't.  That does not have any effect because players already know it.  The NFL is unlike any job either one of us has ever held.  It is one of the most highly competitive jobs in the world.  There is more job turnover in professional sports than any other high dollar job in the world.  Most of the players are out of the league before they are 30.

You have no idea what great coaches say to their players to motivate them.

[THE PISTONS]

Great Coaches are generally known for their schemes, organization, communication skills, vision, etc.

Motivation only goes so far. IF you don't have talent, getting guys fired up is only a short-term strategy.