Initial Reactions To New Coaches From A Vet

[*Nately120*]

(05-20-2019, 03:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They all deserve blame for the Playoff losses, but 0-7 speaks for itself and so does the record against the Steelers, the one constant is Marvin Lewis. He was here the entire time. Also, if you are trying to say Marv was a great motivator i got news for you, you are wrong.


The starters were playing poorly...

It is dumb coaching to continue to start players who are playing poorly. Belichick is a smart coach, he benches or cuts 1st rounders if they are playing poorly. And it is dumb to backstab your DC when he thinks he should make some changes when things are going badly.

I don't mean to lump all the anti-Marvin stuff into your post, but how is it that it is both his fault for not getting the most out of an ultra-talented roster as well as his fault for not shaking up the starting lineup enough?  Are we so ultra-talented that we still need to bench our starters and rotate in our bench players in order to maximize our talent levels?

I just don't see how we are going to argue we had one of the most talented rosters, but that Marvin Lewis was playing the wrong guys at the same time.

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 03:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:  Belichick is a smart coach, he benches or cuts 1st rounders if they are playing poorly.

You mean like Marvin did with John Ross?  


Who exactly was the last 1st round pick Bill benched or cut?  I can't remember any.

No coach, not even Belichick, shuffles his lineup on a regular basis.  It happens very rarely with any NFL team, even the Patriots.  Coaches put their best players on the field and then get then to play the best they can.  It doesn't help the team in any way to put in a lower level player who has not earned playing time.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't mean to lump all the anti-Marvin stuff into your post, but how is it that it is both his fault for not getting the most out of an ultra-talented roster as well as his fault for not shaking up the starting lineup enough?  Are we so ultra-talented that we still need to bench our starters and rotate in our bench players in order to maximize our talent levels?

I just don't see how we are going to argue we had one of the most talented rosters, but that Marvin Lewis was playing the wrong guys at the same time.

Different years.  The roster from 2013-2015 was talented enough to at least win a dam playoff game (even though Maualuga should have been replaced sooner, and probably Blodine).

2016-present has had its weaknesses, and it's hard to understand why they didn't shake some things up to see if something/someone else would have worked.

[*Nately120*]

(05-20-2019, 03:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean like Marvin did with John Ross?  


Who exactly was the last 1st round pick Bill benched or cut?  I can't remember any.

No coach, not even Belichick, shuffles his lineup on a regular basis.  It happens very rarely with any NFL team, even the Patriots.  Coaches put their best players on the field and then get then to play the best they can.  It doesn't help the team in any way to put in a lower level player who has not earned playing time.

When I think of shuffling lineups and "seeing what the young guys can do" I think of the Browns and the Jets in the past few years.  Maybe throw the Bills in there, too.  Not the most popular teams, as of late.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Paulie couldn't threaten them when the head coach said it wouldn't happen

So they just played like shit for the first 8 games for the hell of it?  Sounds like they were petrified of Menacing Marv.

[*Nately120*]

(05-20-2019, 03:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: Different years.  The roster from 2013-2015 was talented enough to at least win a dam playoff game (even though Maualuga should have been replaced sooner, and probably Blodine).

2016-present has had its weaknesses, and it's hard to understand why they didn't shake some things up to see if something/someone else would have worked.

Oh, I get what you are saying, but 2018 shook itself up for us.  We got to see the excitement of Driskell throwing the ball to Ross and Auden Tate.  Hell, maybe ZT will be more willing to toss players into the fire if the season goes sideways.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-20-2019, 03:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't mean to lump all the anti-Marvin stuff into your post, but how is it that it is both his fault for not getting the most out of an ultra-talented roster as well as his fault for not shaking up the starting lineup enough?  Are we so ultra-talented that we still need to bench our starters and rotate in our bench players in order to maximize our talent levels?

I just don't see how we are going to argue we had one of the most talented rosters, but that Marvin Lewis was playing the wrong guys at the same time.

Just have to make adjustments, you don't backstab your DC when he threatens to make adjustments when things are going badly. This is a big reason why we ALWAYS lost in the Playoffs under Marvin Lewis. The other teams made the proper adjustments and we did not.

(05-20-2019, 03:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean like Marvin did with John Ross?  


Who exactly was the last 1st round pick Bill benched or cut?  I can't remember any.

No coach, not even Belichick, shuffles his lineup on a regular basis.  It happens very rarely with any NFL team, even the Patriots.  Coaches put their best players on the field and then get then to play the best they can.  It doesn't help the team in any way to put in a lower level player who has not earned playing time.

Ross was injured and his head wasn't in the game. But we could of used his speed when he was healthy. I don't know if this was a good move or not by Marv, guess we will know if Ross sets the world on fire under Taylor.

I remember it was a first round OT that Belichick cut a few years back, don't remember the name but he was a top 10 pick that the Patriots cut. How come a player like Rex Burkhead or Marquis Flowers goes to the Pats and actually plays well? There are good players on every NFL roster and the starters are not always the best players as we have all saw. Good players come from nowhere all the time.

[THE PISTONS]

Ross only had 210 yards receiving in Year 2 despite a lot of opportunity. I'd say that proved that he deserved the treatment he received from the staff as a rookie.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 03:54 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Oh, I get what you are saying, but 2018 shook itself up for us.  We got to see the excitement of Driskell throwing the ball to Ross and Auden Tate.  Hell, maybe ZT will be more willing to toss players into the fire if the season goes sideways.  

That was not an ideal shake up.  

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 03:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: So they just played like shit for the first 8 games for the hell of it?  Sounds like they were petrified of Menacing Marv.

It doesn't really matter to you does it.  No matter what happens you will spin it into "Marvin sucks".

Somehow turning around a poor defense proves he is a bad coach.  See what I mean?

Anything good happens it is the players or some coach other than Marvin.  Anything bad happens and it is all Marvin.  What is the point of even having a discussion.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-20-2019, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It doesn't really matter to you does it.  No matter what happens you will spin it into "Marvin sucks".

Somehow turning around a poor defense proves he is a bad coach.  See what I mean?

Anything good happens it is the players or some coach other than Marvin.  Anything bad happens and it is all Marvin.  What is the point of even having a discussion.

Did Marvin have anything in the say of hiring Teryl Austin?

Does Marvin deserve any blame for losing every single time in the Playoffs and losing to the Steelers so much?

I would think he would deserve some blame...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It doesn't really matter to you does it.  No matter what happens you will spin it into "Marvin sucks".

Somehow turning around a poor defense proves he is a bad coach.  See what I mean?

Anything good happens it is the players or some coach other than Marvin.  Anything bad happens and it is all Marvin.  What is the point of even having a discussion.

Strawman.

Anywho.....something sure lit a fire under their asses.

No, I never said Marv was terrible, he was certainly better than Teryl Austin, last season proved that.....and I have given him due as such.  He was better than Austin with worse players to boot.

Marv was.....well.....mediocre.  The hope is ZT is at least better than that.  Marvin became too complacent and stale, and it showed in his teams the last three seasons.

So, I ask again, why did they play like shit for 8 weeks, and then turn it up the last 8?  Maybe Guenther calling them out to the media had something to do with it, maybe not.  SOMETHING lit a fire under them.......I don't think it was clapping and yelling "Let's go".  If we can't have differing opinions, you're right....what's the use in discussing it.  I think Marvin took this team as far as he was capable, I hope (and actually think) ZT can go a step or two farther.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 04:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Did Marvin have anything in the say of hiring Teryl Austin?

Does Marvin deserve any blame for losing every single time in the Playoffs and losing to the Steelers so much?

I would think he would deserve some blame...

The Coach would own part of those things.

What's interesting though is people credit Marvin for every bad move in hindsight. Marvin came in here and turned a team respectable that in the previous 12 years...8-8 was a great year and 3-13 was more the norm. That deserves credit. And as we saw with Lebeau who is a great coordinator and Coslett...it wasn't an easy thing to do.

Then we draft Sample in the 2nd Round and people are like: I trust ZT! He wanted a physical TE. ie ZT gets the benefit of the doubt for every move.

We honestly have no clue how much say Taylor has at this point. I doubt he did all the scouting, hired coaches, developed a vision for the team, developed a playbook, and handled free agency. Much like I doubt Marvin didn't do all that stuff either.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-20-2019, 04:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Coach would own part of those things.

What's interesting though is people credit Marvin for every bad move in hindsight. Marvin came in here and turned a team respectable that in the previous 12 years...8-8 was a great year and 3-13 was more the norm. That deserves credit. And as we saw with Lebeau who is a great coordinator and Coslett...it wasn't an easy thing to do.

Then we draft Sample in the 2nd Round and people are like: I trust ZT! He wanted a physical TE. ie ZT gets the benefit of the doubt for every move.

We honestly have no clue how much say Taylor has at this point. I doubt he did all the scouting, hired coaches, developed a vision for the team, developed a playbook, and handled free agency. Much like I doubt Marvin didn't do all that stuff either.

This was in hindsight as well.....it has been reported in several outlets that Drew Sample was higher on several teams' boards than the middle of the 3rd.

Everyone gives Marvin credit for turning this into a respectable football team, same as they give him blame for folding like a cheap tent when it counts.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-20-2019, 04:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Coach would own part of those things.

What's interesting though is people credit Marvin for every bad move in hindsight. Marvin came in here and turned a team respectable that in the previous 12 years...8-8 was a great year and 3-13 was more the norm. That deserves credit. And as we saw with Lebeau who is a great coordinator and Coslett...it wasn't an easy thing to do.

Then we draft Sample in the 2nd Round and people are like: I trust ZT! He wanted a physical TE. ie ZT gets the benefit of the doubt for every move.

We honestly have no clue how much say Taylor has at this point. I doubt he did all the scouting, hired coaches, developed a vision for the team, developed a playbook, and handled free agency. Much like I doubt Marvin didn't do all that stuff either.

I agree with this Pistons, i am just willing to give Taylor the benefit of the doubt until he shows he cannot win a Playoff game. Marv shown he cannot win a Playoff game as a HC, but he did bring us back to respectable and i give him credit for that. The HC deserves some blame though, no matter how you cut it. If Taylor's teams play poorly i will give him some blame.

I always try to call it like it is. No bias one way or the other, but i would be lying to say i am not encouraged with what has been happening so far under Taylor.

[*Nately120*]

(05-20-2019, 04:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We honestly have no clue how much say Taylor has at this point. I doubt he did all the scouting, hired coaches, developed a vision for the team, developed a playbook, and handled free agency. Much like I doubt Marvin didn't do all that stuff either.

You do have to admit that believing we replaced a stale-ass chronic underachiever with a genius HC/GM/Scout in one fell swoop feels pretty good though, eh?  Honestly, if Mike Brown is letting ZT make a fraction of the decisions we think he is I feel bad for Marvin for having to slowly claw his way into being considered front-office relevant.  

[fredtoast]

(05-20-2019, 04:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: Anywho.....something sure lit a fire under their asses.

Here is the point you are missing.

You all call for the benching of starters.  Marvin does the OPPOSIT of that and the defense improves from 20th in points and 25th in yards to 3rd in points and 9th in yards.  Yet you still insist that you were RIGHT and Marvin was WRONG.  You ***** about him having great success just because it proved you wrong.

So even when he proves you all wrong you still try to shit on him.

Don't you realize how ridiculous that makes you look?

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 04:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: You do have to admit that believing we replaced a stale-ass chronic underachiever with a genius HC/GM/Scout in one fell swoop feels pretty good though, eh?  Honestly, if Mike Brown is letting ZT make a fraction of the decisions we think he is I feel bad for Marvin for having to slowly claw his way into being considered front-office relevant.  

Likely, they hired a young guy with little experience so he wouldn't want too much power. I'm sure Taylor has input, but I doubt that he's calling the shots like say a Mike McCarthy would.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-20-2019, 04:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree with this Pistons, i am just willing to give Taylor the benefit of the doubt until he shows he cannot win a Playoff game. Marv shown he cannot win a Playoff game as a HC, but he did bring us back to respectable and i give him credit for that. The HC deserves some blame though, no matter how you cut it. If Taylor's teams play poorly i will give him some blame.

I always try to call it like it is. No bias one way or the other, but i would be lying to say i am not encouraged with what has been happening so far under Taylor.

And really, to find out how good or bad Marvin is...leaving the management variable the same and changing the coaching variable is how to do it.

The roster largely stayed the same with the addition of draft picks.

My concern with Taylor is I think people feel we hired McVay...but Taylor was the Assistant WR Coach in Year 1 with the Rams and the QB Coach last year. That's a far cry from the guy who designed the schemes.

I do wish he brought more Rams assistants with him too.

[NKURyan]

(05-20-2019, 03:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Ross only had 210 yards receiving in Year 2 despite a lot of opportunity. I'd say that proved that he deserved the treatment he received from the staff as a rookie.

I'm going to disagree. I think a big reason he struggled as much as he did in year 2 is because they basically redshirted him his rookie year. That's valuable experience that he missed out on.

And look, maybe Ross struggled with the playbook, maybe he was making some poor decisions on the field, I don't know. I think a good coach does everything he can to put a player - especially a young one - in a position to succeed. You can't tell me they couldn't have given Ross more chances on screen passes (which they never seem to throw to him) or reverses (which they basically stopped calling for him after he fumbled once) to at least build some confidence for the guy. Call the guy's number on a designed play and boost that guy up, don't ignore him, especially when a quick screen play or slant would only help your struggling offensive line.

You see it all the time when you watch good QBs, and commentators mention it all the time - "Andrew Luck goes right back to receiver X after he dropped the last one to show him he still has faith in him". That's how you build chemistry between the two. With Ross, it seemed like it was always "Well, he messed up on the one play we're going to give him a shot, so screw him we'll just play shorthanded the rest of the way".

If I had to pick a player that I think will have the biggest turnaround next year, I'm going with Ross. He's going to benefit from having actual competent offensive minds on staff more than anyone, because even if he does have huge holes in his game they'll find a way to play to his strengths.