Lack of "Surge" When Run Blocking

[Fan_in_Kettering]

In my research over lunch on effective offensive line play I found this interesting excerpt from an article online.  It was written last week.

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"The biggest thing that I am not seeing from the Cincinnati Bengals' offensive line in 2019 comes down to the aspect of “surge.” When the Bengals are running the ball, you want to see the entire offensive line pushing the other team down the field. If your offensive line has a positive surge, the line of scrimmage is being pushed a few yards downfield. If the offensive line is not getting any surge, then pretty much where the ball was snapped is where the offense and defense are colliding and staying. If it’s the defensive line who is getting the surge, the offensive line is being driven back. Obviously, especially when running the ball, getting surge is a key component to success.

"The reason surge is so important is that while the offensive line is supposed to open holes for the running back, if those holes are occurring down field there’s just an overall greater net gain in rushing. Even if a running back is being tackled at first contact, if the contact is occurring two or three yards downfield due to the line driving back the defense, it’s still a decent run.

"When combining the concept of surge with the eye test when watching the Bengals' offensive line, they are not getting the job done. On running plays, they are pretty much locking up at the line of scrimmage and not pushing their opponents down field. I don’t know if it’s blocking scheme or not winning individual matchups, but it’s just not happening."

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Now where did I find this delectable and accurate quote?  I got it from one of the Pittsburgh Steelers' news sites and I changed "Pittsburgh Steelers" to "Cincinnati Bengals" every time I found it in the article.  That's right!  The Steelers have gotten away from their former offensive line coach Mike Munchak's concept of "surge."  The Bengals have the same issue but the Bengals haven't had a "surge" style offensive line for ten years.  This explains the lack of holes, gaps, creases, seams, or daylight for Joe Mixon or Giovani Bernard to exploit.  Instead, they are flattened at first contact.

[*ochocincos*]

The lack of "surge" in the run game is a big complaint many of us had the past decade with Paul Alexander.
Everyone got very excited for Pollack because we expected him to make "surge" a priority again.
Now, with Turner, it seems missing again.
Can't run well with the OL staying at the LOS.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-15-2019, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The lack of "surge" in the run game is a big complaint many of us had the past decade with Paul Alexander.
Everyone got very excited for Pollack because we expected him to make "surge" a priority again.
Now, with Turner, it seems missing again.
Can't run well with the OL staying at the LOS.

The more I learn about the intricacies of offensive line play the more afraid I get for Andy, Joe, and Gio.  The Ravens definitely had the defensive "surge" going on against the Bengals on Sunday and the Steelers' defensive "surge" almost put Philip Rivers in an asylum -- but the Chargers might have even a worse offensive line than the Bengals do.  I honestly wonder what Frank Pollack could have done in his second year.  Anyone know where he ended up?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-15-2019, 02:29 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The more I learn about the intricacies of offensive line play the more afraid I get for Andy, Joe, and Gio.  The Ravens definitely had the defensive "surge" going on against the Bengals on Sunday and the Steelers' defensive "surge" almost put Philip Rivers in an asylum -- but the Chargers might have even a worse offensive line than the Bengals do.  I honestly wonder what Frank Pollack could have done in his second year.  Anyone know where he ended up?

Pollack is now the OL coach for the Jets.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-15-2019, 02:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pollack is now the OL coach for the Jets.

Good for Frank.  It must have been very satisfying for him when the Jets beat the Cowboys.  As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- Frank chose not to stay in Cincinnati.

[Circleville Guy]

Surge is just another word and along the lines of what everyone has been saying on countless threads. Maybe we called it push but ok, surge it is. It’s not anything that everyone doesn’t already know.

[fredtoast]

(10-15-2019, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The lack of "surge" in the run game is a big complaint many of us had the past decade with Paul Alexander.
Everyone got very excited for Pollack because we expected him to make "surge" a priority again.

That is interesting because Pollack ran more of a zone blocking scheme while Alexander was more drive man scheme.

[fredtoast]

(10-15-2019, 02:34 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Surge is just another word and along the lines of what everyone has been saying on countless threads. Maybe we called it push but ok, surge it is. It’s not anything that everyone doesn’t already know.

This.

It doesn't take a genius to see that our line is getting stood up and our RBs stuffed.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-15-2019, 02:32 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Good for Frank.  It must have been very satisfying for him when the Jets beat the Cowboys.  As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- Frank chose not to stay in Cincinnati.

Correct, he chose to leave.
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2019/1/15/18184263/bengals-rumors-coach-frank-pollack-out

[Circleville Guy]

(10-15-2019, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

It doesn't take a genius to see that our line is getting stood up and our RBs stuffed.

Yep... You can argue the coaching, schemes and talent but it boils down to push.... or surge.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-15-2019, 02:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is interesting because Pollack ran more of a zone blocking scheme while Alexander was more drive man scheme.

Good to point that out. It is interesting, but we did see the Bengals struggle in the run game with Paul Alexander's scheme but did (much) better running the ball with Pollack's. Perhaps it was more because Alexander just didn't have good OL for a power man scheme(?)

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Dammit Dalton!

[fredtoast]

2019 Bengal rush offense

32nd in yards per game
32nd in yards per carry
32nd in "stuffed" percentage (runs for zero or negative yards)
27th in rush tds (but our RBs have ZERO tds)

Only 3 teams in the history of the league (and none since 1944) have rushed for fewer yards per game than the Bengals are this year (56.5).  The lowest for a 16 game season is 66.4 by the '00 Chargers.


Not just bad.   Historically bad.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-15-2019, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2019 Bengal rush offense

32nd in yards per game
32nd in yards per carry
32nd in "stuffed" percentage (runs for zero or negative yards)
27th in rush tds (but our RBs have ZERO tds)

Only 3 teams in the history of the league (and none since 1944) have rushed for fewer yards per game than the Bengals are this year (56.5).  The lowest for a 16 game season is 66.4 by the '00 Chargers.


Not just bad.   Historically bad.

Historically bad is becoming a very bad recurring theme here. Last year the defense, this year the run game. Yikes!

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2019, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2019 Bengal rush offense

32nd in yards per game
32nd in yards per carry
32nd in "stuffed" percentage (runs for zero or negative yards)
27th in rush tds (but our RBs have ZERO tds)

Only 3 teams in the history of the league (and none since 1944) have rushed for fewer yards per game than the Bengals are this year (56.5).  The lowest for a 16 game season is 66.4 by the '00 Chargers.


Not just bad.   Historically bad.

Atleast we signed Bernard to an extension paying him like a Top 15 back on a per year value!

[Circleville Guy]

(10-15-2019, 03:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Atleast we signed Bernard to an extension paying him like a Top 15 back on a per year value!

And he’s averaging 4 carries per game.. lol

[Bengalitis]

the lack of versatility and coaching adjustment, foresight. Players are never gonna be evenly matched, so its up to the coaches to either provide a lineman with help, or schemes to shuffle linemen to create advantages. Either our coaches dont prepare accordingly or cant scheme.

[Tiger Teeth]

(10-15-2019, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: Dammit Dalton!

He needs more surge.  

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2019, 04:50 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: the lack of versatility and coaching adjustment, foresight. Players are never gonna be evenly matched, so its up to the coaches to either provide a lineman with help, or schemes to shuffle linemen to create advantages. Either our coaches dont prepare accordingly or cant scheme.

Probably a bit of all the above. You don't have nearly every player on the roster regress without a bunch of things going wrong.

AJ Green's return won't make Atkins, Bates, Jackson, etc not regress.

[fredtoast]

I thought I would be clever and post an image of Serge Ibaka, so I searched "image serge".




Let's just say it took me a few minutes to get back here.