How timing affects the perception of a coach

[fredtoast]

I am not saying I have seen anything to make me feel good about Taylor. But I also understand that he stepped into an absolute shit storm. The roster was a mess BEFORE we lost Green, Glenn, Boling, Williams, and Ross. A team that lived by the draft was getting almost zero production from 4 of its last 5 first round picks. They couldn't get any decent assistant coaches for his staff. The front office did not sign any decent free agents. He had no chance.

Would other coaches have tried different schemes or even gimmicks to try and spark the team? Maybe. The first time we played Pittsburgh the Steelers offense had been struggling. Against us they used Jaylen Samuels out of all different formations and he tore us up. He rushed for 26 yards and a td, completed 3 passes for 31 yards, and caught 8 passes for 57 yards.

But back to my point about timing. Look at the career of Marvin Lewis. If he had been fired after the '10 meltdown and the new coach had ran off five straight playoff appearances Lewis would have been a bum and the new guy a genius. But if Lewis had been fired after the '15 meltdown and the new guy(s) went 19-39-1 then Marvin would have been viewed in a much better light.

I believe Taylor will get another year to show us what he has. Although I have not seen anything impressive from him I think it is unfair to judge him based on what he stepped into.

[THE PISTONS]

I concede that we don't have the roster of a playoff team...however this team can't win a single game. And we've played some bad teams.

Also, most of the players on the roster have regressed. I get that he didn't inherit a roster full of Pro Bowl players, but we did have some talent...and a lot of those guys have gotten worse this year.

The entire staff is just so inexperienced that I don't know how they will improve. Generally you need veteran coaches to give mentorship to a guy this inexperienced. We have none of that here. A Del Rio would have been extremely valuable.

Then, I look at the draft. Yes - Jonah got hurt. But Sample, when healthy barely played. Pratt has been meh. Wren and Jordan have struggled. It looks like a total flop.

I also look at the playcalling. It's predictable. On 3rd and 7 you're getting a 3 yard pass. It's just been bad. We don't seem to throw to TE's. We don't throw to Mixon. IF we do throw to TE's, we don't run the ball. It seems he has no concept of balance. Like early in the year Dalton threw the ball 50+ times a game, then Finley gets in there and they actually run it. Well, with Dalton that might have worked!

And I see you state you haven't seen anything impressive which is where I'm at. It's just really hard to see him improving things in a year...unless the Bengals sign a Conklin at RT and Scherff at Guard. IF they just think they can fix this through the draft or with Tier 3 free agents, he'll fail.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Fred and Pistons make good points as usual. I’m going to give Zac Taylor a compliment: It bothers him the Bengals are losing. He’s not taking this well — and I am happy he’s not. Now I would imagine there is probably some significant Front Office pressure building on Zac with each successive loss.

The other factor I want to mention is this: Zac’s first pick in the draft hasn’t played a single snap in the NFL. Who knows how much better the offensive line would have played with Jonah Williams at left tackle? Fred might well be correct and Mike Brown will probably give Zac another year based on the injuries to key players alone...

...but allow me to inject some realism. Good teams find a way around injuries which means their rosters have lots of depth. The Bengals are demonstrably NOT deep at any position on the field and this is a huge concern. The drop off from Andy Dalton to Ryan Finley alone was much larger than anyone anticipated, for example.

So how do the Bengals develop depth? I hate to compare to the team I loathe, but the Steelers are 6-5 and in line for the second wild card spot with what, their third or fourth string quarterback? Le’Veon Bell is gone. Antonio Brown is batshit crazy and out of football. Ben Roethlisberger met his health insurance deductible in about a week. Even with a no-name roster, Pittsburgh is still winning. This is coaching, pure and simple, and I grudgingly give props to Mike Tomlin and their coaching staff. They get it done even when things aren’t ideal.

Zac Taylor may get to that point someday. I hope he does. If he drafts for depth and coaches his players to plug in when their name is called, the sky is the limit.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2019, 01:39 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Fred and Pistons make good points as usual.  I’m going to give Zac Taylor a compliment:  It bothers him the Bengals are losing.  He’s not taking this well — and I am happy he’s not.  Now I would imagine there is probably some significant Front Office pressure building on Zac with each successive loss.

The other factor I want to mention is this:  Zac’s first pick in the draft hasn’t played a single snap in the NFL.  Who knows how much better the offensive line would have played with Jonah Williams at left tackle?   Fred might well be correct and Mike Brown will probably give Zac another year based on the injuries to key players alone...

...but allow me to inject some realism.  Good teams find a way around injuries which means their rosters have lots of depth.  The Bengals are demonstrably NOT deep at any position on the field and this is a huge concern.  The drop off from Andy Dalton to Ryan Finley alone was much larger than anyone anticipated, for example.

So how do the Bengals develop depth?  I hate to compare to the team I loathe, but the Steelers are 6-5 and in line for the second wild card spot with what, their third or fourth string quarterback? Le’Veon Bell is gone.  Antonio Brown is batshit crazy and out of football.  Ben Roethlisberger met his health insurance deductible in about a week.  Even with a no-name roster, Pittsburgh is still winning.  This is coaching, pure and simple, and I grudgingly give props to Mike Tomlin and their coaching staff.  They get it done even when things aren’t ideal.

Zac Taylor may get to that point someday.  I hope he does.  If he drafts for depth and coaches his players to plug in when their name is called, the sky is the limit.

Indeed. And I just saw a good write-up on Top 10 rookies this year...and the 49ers have 3 of them. So some teams find production from players drafted in later rounds. We don't.

re: Zac - Bengals management may have given him too much power to select a staff. He brought in a lot of friends, so of which who were inexperienced. They should have at minimum forced him to sign an experienced DC like Del Rio.

Good points on the Steelers. And I want to add that the Steelers have a very sound system and team identity. So do the Patriots. They draft players that fit that system, and plug them in and go. Also, the Steelers saw DeCastro as important to retain and did. The Bengals let Zeitler go. Having a dominant Guard like Zeitler would be game changing for us.

Zac doesn't have any proven successes in the organization to learn from. He meets with the management team daily, but that may be more of a hindrance than good thing. I doubt they have innovative X's and O's ideas.

On offense: Boyd, Tate, Eifert, Mixon, and Bernard are more weapons than some teams have. He should be able to put a productive offense on the field.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-27-2019, 01:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. And I just saw a good write-up on Top 10 rookies this year...and the 49ers have 3 of them. So some teams find production from players drafted in later rounds. We don't.

re: Zac - Bengals management may have given him too much power to select a staff. He brought in a lot of friends, so of which who were inexperienced. They should have at minimum forced him to sign an experienced DC like Del Rio.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Jack Del Rio either was denied or declined the defensive coordinator job. I make no secret I’m a huge fan of Del Rio but I’m not displeased with what Lou Anarumo has done given his inexperience and the lack of talent on the roster. The Bengals’ defense is allowing ten less points per game than in 2018 under Teryl Austin. It’s still too much but it’s better. Lou has improved the defense but the offense has seriously regressed, especially the run game. It wasn’t right to expect Andy Dalton to win by throwing fifty passes per game.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2019, 02:08 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Jack Del Rio either was denied or declined the defensive coordinator job.  I make no secret I’m a huge fan of Del Rio but I’m not displeased with what Lou Anarumo has done given his inexperience and the lack of talent on the roster.  The Bengals’ defense is allowing ten less points per game than in 2018 under Teryl Austin.  It’s still too much but it’s better.  Lou has improved the defense but the offense has seriously regressed, especially the run game.  It wasn’t right to expect Andy Dalton to win by throwing fifty passes per game.

I was pretty excited about Del Rio. Honestly, when his name came up...it seemed like we were going to crush the offseason.

[ezekiel23]

There is no way the ownership or the coaching staff could foresee The disaster that was ahead of them About to unfold. I think they actually had a good plan last spring.But when you lose your first round draft pick a in training camp,Clint bowling unexpectedly m retires,Cordy Glenn misses most of the year because of a concussion, You’re number one Pro bowl wide receiver gets injured and possibly missing the entire season. I mean this offensive line that they had put together to start for this team probably would’ve actually been pretty good. Then if you have a healthy Green,Boyd,Eifert,Ross,Mixon,well, Things may have been a lot different. We might be competing for a playoff spot right now had things gone the way that they had planned. Unfortunately things didn’t work out that way and Zack Taylor got caught up in a nightmarish situation. It would be a terrible thing to experience as a first year head coach. I think the front office could have done more to have helped him.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-27-2019, 01:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. And I just saw a good write-up on Top 10 rookies this year...and the 49ers have 3 of them. So some teams find production from players drafted in later rounds. We don't.

re: Zac - Bengals management may have given him too much power to select a staff. He brought in a lot of friends, so of which who were inexperienced. They should have at minimum forced him to sign an experienced DC like Del Rio.

Good points on the Steelers. And I want to add that the Steelers have a very sound system and team identity. So do the Patriots. They draft players that fit that system, and plug them in and go. Also, the Steelers saw DeCastro as important to retain and did. The Bengals let Zeitler go. Having a dominant Guard like Zeitler would be game changing for us.

Zac doesn't have any proven successes in the organization to learn from. He meets with the management team daily, but that may be more of a hindrance than good thing. I doubt they have innovative X's and O's ideas.

On offense: Boyd, Tate, Eifert, Mixon, and Bernard are more weapons than some teams have. He should be able to put a productive offense on the field.

I wonder how much this is having smaller gaps to fill being easier to fix (e.g. we need someone who can do X as opposed to the Bengals we need players who can do X, Y and Z). Your search is more defined. Is completing a jigsaw easier at the end or at the beginning when you don't know how things fit together or later when you can see all the pieces around it?

Also, how much is playing alongside better players making the rookies seem better? Would the same players under the same coaches look as good in Cincy? Even if they did, the chances of them making a national list are less in Cincy!

As for Zac's coaching staff - he tried for several more experienced DCs. For whatever reason the 31st ranked D wasn't an attractive proposition, even with the promise of a couple of fourth tier FAs and a 3rd round pick chucked in.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2019, 03:36 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: There is no way the ownership or the coaching staff could foresee The disaster that was ahead of them About to unfold. I think they actually had a good plan last spring.But when you lose your first round draft pick a in training camp,Clint bowling unexpectedly m retires,Cordy Glenn misses most of the year because of a concussion, You’re number one Pro bowl wide receiver gets injured and possibly missing the entire season. I mean this offensive line that they had put together to start for this team probably would’ve actually been pretty good. Then if you have a healthy Green,Boyd,Eifert,Ross,Mixon,well, Things may have been a lot different. We might be competing for a playoff spot right now had things gone the way that they had planned. Unfortunately things didn’t work out that way and Zack Taylor got caught up in a nightmarish situation. It would be a terrible thing to experience as a first year head coach. I think the front office could have done more to have helped him.

Yeah...EVERY TEAM has injuries. The 49ers played without 2 Tackles who were really good and lost Alexander and keep winning.

Supposedly the Bengals knew Boling was done BEFORE the draft. And remember how people were saying on the board that he declined last year BEFORE it was known he was retiring.

Also Glenn was below average last year. He wasn't good against the Steelers either.

Boyd, Eifert, and Mixon were all healthy.

AJ Green has missed something like 20 games in a row...and he's made it through 1 practice. You have to expect that he's going to be injured.

And they hired a totally inexperienced coaching staff. That move adds risk.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2019, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I wonder how much this is having smaller gaps to fill being easier to fix (e.g. we need someone who can do X as opposed to the Bengals we need players who can do X, Y and Z). Your search is more defined. Is completing a jigsaw easier at the end or at the beginning when you don't know how things fit together or later when you can see all the pieces around it?

Also, how much is playing alongside better players making the rookies seem better? Would the same players under the same coaches look as good in Cincy? Even if they did, the chances of them making a national list are less in Cincy!

As for Zac's coaching staff - he tried for several more experienced DCs. For whatever reason the 31st ranked D wasn't an attractive proposition, even with the promise of a couple of fourth tier FAs and a 3rd round pick chucked in.

I had that same thought earlier today!

If you have 2-3 holes it's one thing. When you have 6-7 holes it's another.

And with a small scouting staff, it's hard to scout all of those positions and be accurate.

[BengalChris]

(11-27-2019, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not saying I have seen anything to make me feel good about Taylor.  But I also understand that he stepped into an absolute shit storm.  The roster was a mess BEFORE we lost Green, Glenn, Boling, Williams, and Ross.  A team that lived by the draft was getting almost zero production from 4 of its last 5 first round picks.  They couldn't get any decent assistant coaches for his staff.  The front office did not sign any decent free agents.  He had no chance.

Would other coaches have tried different schemes or even gimmicks to try and spark the team?  Maybe.  The first time we played Pittsburgh the Steelers offense had been struggling.  Against us they used Jaylen Samuels out of all different formations and he tore us up.  He rushed for 26 yards and a td, completed 3 passes for 31 yards, and caught 8 passes for 57 yards.  

But back to my point about timing.  Look at the career of Marvin Lewis.  If he had been fired after the '10 meltdown and the new coach had ran off five straight playoff appearances Lewis would have been a bum and the new guy a genius.  But if Lewis had been fired after the '15 meltdown and the new guy(s) went 19-39-1 then Marvin would have been viewed in a much better light.

I believe Taylor will get another year to show us what he has.  Although I have not seen anything impressive from him I think it is unfair to judge him based on what he stepped into.

And even with all of that, Marvin still won 6 games last season. That's the kicker. Zac was suppose to bring in better coaching, better game management, a more offensive minded approach, yet assistant coaches didn't want to come work with him (which is his fault) and his play calling appears to be more predictable than with Marvin and he hasn't even been able to win a single freakin' game.

We've already seen what Taylor has and it's not worth keeping.

Green is as good as gone given the contract leaks that we've already heard about. Bengals will settle for a 4th or 5th round comp pick in 2021 simply because they won't have a choice unless they want to try and hold AJ hostage with the franchise tag.

The team will spend its #1 pick on a QB, Mike Brown will not bring in any good OL men in free agency and will continue to hope that the two scouts find some bargains in the draft.

Mike Brown will also not bring in any speedy LBers who can cover in free agency and the team will take a few fliers on LBers with the mid and late round picks and hope they strike gold, which they won't.

Meanwhile, the team's aging veteran stars will be another year older and the new younger stars will be no where to be found. Ross will be going into his 4th rookie season and will once again be the John Ross we all know.

Taylor won't win in this scenario and it will take a HC with a lot of credibility to right this ship and credibility is something Taylor has nothing of.

 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

It is true that Taylor was pretty much set up to fail with all those injuries and the overall roster.

Have to judge him on his Playcalling though which he is in charge of. Not been good. Maybe if we get some better
coaches around him, he gives up the Playcalling to a better OC, we get a couple big FA's on the O-line and at LB
and we start Drafting decent around a new early round QB Taylor might succeed.

Taylor clearly needs to give up the Playcalling duties though and we need a new DC and better coaches.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2019, 03:43 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I wonder how much this is having smaller gaps to fill being easier to fix (e.g. we need someone who can do X as opposed to the Bengals we need players who can do X, Y and Z). Your search is more defined. Is completing a jigsaw easier at the end or at the beginning when you don't know how things fit together or later when you can see all the pieces around it?

Also, how much is playing alongside better players making the rookies seem better? Would the same players under the same coaches look as good in Cincy? Even if they did, the chances of them making a national list are less in Cincy!

As for Zac's coaching staff - he tried for several more experienced DCs. For whatever reason the 31st ranked D wasn't an attractive proposition, even with the promise of a couple of fourth tier FAs and a 3rd round pick chucked in.

Yeah, I thought they were going to get the DC out of Florida when Del Rio fell through. That may have made things a bit better.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2019, 04:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: And even with all of that, Marvin still won 6 games last season. That's the kicker. Zac was suppose to bring in better coaching, better game management, a more offensive minded approach, yet assistant coaches didn't want to come work with him (which is his fault) and his play calling appears to be more predictable than with Marvin and he hasn't even been able to win a single freakin' game.

We've already seen what Taylor has and it's not worth keeping.

Green is as good as gone given the contract leaks that we've already heard about. Bengals will settle for a 4th or 5th round comp pick in 2021 simply because they won't have a choice unless they want to try and hold AJ hostage with the franchise tag.

The team will spend its #1 pick on a QB, Mike Brown will not bring in any good OL men in free agency and will continue to hope that the two scouts find some bargains in the draft.

Mike Brown will also not bring in any speedy LBers who can cover in free agency and the team will take a few fliers on LBers with the mid and late round picks and hope they strike gold, which they won't.

Meanwhile, the team's aging veteran stars will be another year older and the new younger stars will be no where to be found. Ross will be going into his 4th rookie season and will once again be the John Ross we all know.

Taylor won't win in this scenario and it will take a HC with a lot of credibility to right this ship and credibility is something Taylor has nothing of.

 

Didn't Marvin go 1-9 down the stretch? This team hasn't won a game in over a year. 

Zac sure deserves some criticism, but I'm struggling to see how this was a good team he inherited as some have suggested. This team was a shit show from the jump when it suffers injuries. Our backups are just not very good. Some of the starters are below average and would be backups elsewhere. When you're playing backups of guys who would be backups elsewhere.....well....

Depth has been a serious problem for this team for the last three years in reality.

[XenoMorph]

(11-27-2019, 04:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Taylor clearly needs to give up the Playcalling duties though and we need a new DC and better coaches.

I think Taylor will have the chance to do things the right way the next city hes in

doubt he hires an OC if his ego had him calling the plays year 1 with no expirence doing so.


to be honest though the Defense has looked better these last few games... that could just be a product of who we were playing though

[BengalChris]

(11-27-2019, 04:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Didn't Marvin go 1-9 down the stretch? This team hasn't won a game in over a year. 

Zac sure deserves some criticism, but I'm struggling to see how this was a good team he inherited as some have suggested. This team was a shit show from the jump when it suffers injuries. Our backups are just not very good. Some of the starters are below average and would be backups elsewhere. When you're playing backups of guys who would be backups elsewhere.....well....

Depth has been a serious problem for this team for the last three years in reality.

True and most of those games were with Driskel at QB. We all thought Finley was an upgrade to the backup QB spot, but that's in question now.

The draft was bad and hasn't helped at all this year. Sample, Pratt, Finley none of have lived up to being an NFL starter.

To not win a single game this far into the year is more than just bad luck with injuries.

 

[BengalFanInNJ]

(11-27-2019, 03:36 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: There is no way the ownership or the coaching staff could foresee The disaster that was ahead of them About to unfold. I think they actually had a good plan last spring.But when you lose your first round draft pick a in training camp,Clint bowling unexpectedly m retires,Cordy Glenn misses most of the year because of a concussion, You’re number one Pro bowl wide receiver gets injured and possibly missing the entire season. I mean this offensive line that they had put together to start for this team probably would’ve actually been pretty good. Then if you have a healthy Green,Boyd,Eifert,Ross,Mixon,well, Things may have been a lot different. We might be competing for a playoff spot right now had things gone the way that they had planned. Unfortunately things didn’t work out that way and Zack Taylor got caught up in a nightmarish situation. It would be a terrible thing to experience as a first year head coach. I think the front office could have done more to have helped him.

No. The offensive line was still in shambles. THE BEST they could have hoped for was Williams not getting hurt and being a stud LT. If that were so, this line still would need to be improved. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2019, 04:44 PM)BengalChris Wrote: True and most of those games were with Driskel at QB. We all thought Finley was an upgrade to the backup QB spot, but that's in question now.

The draft was bad and hasn't helped at all this year. Sample, Pratt, Finley none of have lived up to being an NFL starter.

To not win a single game this far into the year is more than just bad luck with injuries.

 

You'll get no argument from me on the luck....lol.

I think Zac would have 2 wins now, if we weren't trying Finley. The flip of that is....you had to try out Finley.

If I look at the opening day lineup (which already had some KEY injuries on offense), I'd say it's a 5 win team with a good, experienced staff. Any more wins then that, and you're talking Belichick level. Just my humble opinion.

Bottom line, I don't think this organization was set up for a young guy and staff like Zac and Co. As Fred noted....the last 4 drafts have been absolutely terrible. FAs have been let go and replaced with lesser talent. It's just not a very good team, and the inexperience leading it is magnifying the issues.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-27-2019, 04:44 PM)BengalChris Wrote: True and most of those games were with Driskel at QB. We all thought Finley was an upgrade to the backup QB spot, but that's in question now.

The draft was bad and hasn't helped at all this year. Sample, Pratt, Finley none of have lived up to being an NFL starter.

To not win a single game this far into the year is more than just bad luck with injuries.

 

Jordan as well.

Not winning is also a lot to do with confidence. If this team had won at Seattle it would have evolved very differently. Instead it spirals downwards.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-27-2019, 04:41 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I think Taylor will have the chance to do things the right way the next city hes in

doubt he hires an OC if his ego had him calling the plays year 1 with no expirence doing so.


to be honest though the Defense has looked better these last few games...  that could just be a product of who we were playing though

Then Taylor needs to get rid of that ego too and it definitely could be the teams why our Defense looked better as of late.

Still isn't good enough, want to get back to a punishing, pass rushing, aggressive Defense.