What changed in the running game

[Au165]

If you have the athletic this is a really interesting story.

https://theathletic.com/1456903/2019/12/12/how-the-bengals-turned-a-historically-inept-run-game-into-a-strength/

If not I'll essentially explain the overarching message. Basically the they went from being one of the worst rushing teams in the first seven games to one of the best the last six games. They are top 10 in yards per carry, total rushing, most explosive runs, and fewest negative runs in that time. The reason is they scraped the old running scheme and quit trying to be he Rams and went with a Pin and Pull concept. They also added in a toss for Mixon over handing the ball off as much.

Now what is interesting to this, and what gives me optimism about the coaching staff, is it was a group effort rebuilding the running game. Turner brought the Pin and Pull and Van Pelt threw out the idea of tosses from his time with Eddie Lacey in Green Bay. I think the fact in a week they successfully rebuilt the running game says a lot about the guys on the staff. I keep seeing people say fire Turner but Turner's new scheme essentially saved the running game, which makes the idea kind of funny.

Personally, I noticed the Pin and Pull a while back but the toss piece hadn't really hit me. It really is a good scheme to get Mixon the ball in space and then let him have more room to see lanes and accelerate.

[*bengalfan74*]

Is part of it they finally developed some Oline chemistry ? Early on they played musical linemen every week. Has that tapered off some ? Did Glenn make a difference ?

[Whatever]

(12-13-2019, 10:16 AM)Au165 Wrote: If you have the athletic this is a really interesting story.

https://theathletic.com/1456903/2019/12/12/how-the-bengals-turned-a-historically-inept-run-game-into-a-strength/

If not I'll essentially explain the overarching message. Basically the they went from being one of the worst rushing teams in the first seven games to one of the best the last six games. They are top 10 in yards per carry, total rushing, most explosive runs, and fewest negative runs in that time. The reason is they scraped the old running scheme and quit trying to be he Rams and went with a Pin and Pull concept. They also added in a toss for Mixon over handing the ball off as much.

Now what is interesting to this, and what gives me optimism about the coaching staff, is it was a group effort rebuilding the running game. Turner brought the Pin and Pull and Van Pelt threw out the idea of tosses from his time with Eddie Lacey in Green Bay. I think the fact in a week they successfully rebuilt the running game says a lot about the guys on the staff. I keep seeing people say fire Turner but Turner's new scheme essentially saved the running game, which makes the idea kind of funny.

Personally, I noticed the Pin and Pull a while back but the toss piece hadn't really hit me. It really is a good scheme to get Mixon the ball in space and then let him have more room to see lanes and accelerate.

Turner is really tough to grade.  He didn't have a great personnel group to begin with and injuries ravaged it on top of it.  I mean John Jerry was forced to start a bunch of games at LT.  To his credit, he has shown willingness to make changes to both scheme and personnel when things aren't working.  However, his past and the retirements this year are going to make people wonder.  People bash him for his Bobby Hart comments, but no coach is going to go out there and bury a player that just got resigned.

[*Synric*]

(12-13-2019, 10:16 AM)Au165 Wrote: If you have the athletic this is a really interesting story.

https://theathletic.com/1456903/2019/12/12/how-the-bengals-turned-a-historically-inept-run-game-into-a-strength/

If not I'll essentially explain the overarching message. Basically the they went from being one of the worst rushing teams in the first seven games to one of the best the last six games. They are top 10 in yards per carry, total rushing, most explosive runs, and fewest negative runs in that time. The reason is they scraped the old running scheme and quit trying to be he Rams and went with a Pin and Pull concept. They also added in a toss for Mixon over handing the ball off as much.

Now what is interesting to this, and what gives me optimism about the coaching staff, is it was a group effort rebuilding the running game. Turner brought the Pin and Pull and Van Pelt threw out the idea of tosses from his time with Eddie Lacey in Green Bay. I think the fact in a week they successfully rebuilt the running game says a lot about the guys on the staff. I keep seeing people say fire Turner but Turner's new scheme essentially saved the running game, which makes the idea kind of funny.

Personally, I noticed the Pin and Pull a while back but the toss piece hadn't really hit me. It really is a good scheme to get Mixon the ball in space and then let him have more room to see lanes and accelerate.

It wasnt just blocking Mixon was also having trouble spotting run lanes that were there earlier this season. Now he has less choices its front or cutback.

[Au165]

(12-13-2019, 11:07 AM)Synric Wrote: It wasnt just blocking Mixon was also having trouble spotting run lanes that were there earlier this season. Now he has less choices its front or cutback.

Right, which is why they moved to the toss versus the hand off. They eliminated the one cut scheme now he has less decision making. Mixon is running better because of the adjustments they made, it's no coincidence it followed these changes.

[Fullrock]

(12-13-2019, 10:16 AM)Au165 Wrote: If you have the athletic this is a really interesting story.

https://theathletic.com/1456903/2019/12/12/how-the-bengals-turned-a-historically-inept-run-game-into-a-strength/

If not I'll essentially explain the overarching message. Basically the they went from being one of the worst rushing teams in the first seven games to one of the best the last six games. They are top 10 in yards per carry, total rushing, most explosive runs, and fewest negative runs in that time. The reason is they scraped the old running scheme and quit trying to be he Rams and went with a Pin and Pull concept. They also added in a toss for Mixon over handing the ball off as much.

Now what is interesting to this, and what gives me optimism about the coaching staff, is it was a group effort rebuilding the running game. Turner brought the Pin and Pull and Van Pelt threw out the idea of tosses from his time with Eddie Lacey in Green Bay. I think the fact in a week they successfully rebuilt the running game says a lot about the guys on the staff. I keep seeing people say fire Turner but Turner's new scheme essentially saved the running game, which makes the idea kind of funny.

Personally, I noticed the Pin and Pull a while back but the toss piece hadn't really hit me. It really is a good scheme to get Mixon the ball in space and then let him have more room to see lanes and accelerate.

People don't realize how difficult it is to change an entire scheme mid-season. You have some on this board asking "why did it take until the bye week?" Because there is no way you have enough hours in the day to rip up and change your run game blocking scheme and implement it with your players while also preparing for the next opponent. It's hard enough to do during a bye week. The coaching staff deserves major props for pulling it off very effectively.

[THE PISTONS]

Pollack was able to run from game 1 last year. It took this staff 8 games to figure it out.

Yeah! It took them 8 games of horrible rushing from last years AFC leading rusher...to figure out they needed to make changes. Wow! What great coaches!

[Fullrock]

(12-13-2019, 11:21 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Pollack was able to run from game 1 last year. It took this staff 8 games to figure it out.

Yeah! It took them 8 games of horrible rushing from last years AFC leading rusher...to figure out they needed to make changes. Wow! What great coaches!

 You're comparing apples to oranges. Pollack also had Glenn and Boling.

Again, you simply cannot change your entire run game blocking scheme while preparing for your next opponent. 

[Au165]

(12-13-2019, 11:21 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Pollack was able to run from game 1 last year. It took this staff 8 games to figure it out.

Yeah! It took them 8 games of horrible rushing from last years AFC leading rusher...to figure out they needed to make changes. Wow! What great coaches!

They came in with a scheme they thought would help Mixon, most experts believed Mixon would thrive in that schem, but he didn't. They could only change it on a bye week because of how much work it  takes, so they were stuck with it but then installed a whole new scheme in a week. It's an impressive feat. 

[*Synric*]

(12-13-2019, 11:21 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Pollack was able to run from game 1 last year. It took this staff 8 games to figure it out.

Yeah! It took them 8 games of horrible rushing from last years AFC leading rusher...to figure out they needed to make changes. Wow! What great coaches!

(12-13-2019, 11:24 AM)Au165 Wrote: They came in with a scheme they thought would help Mixon, most experts believed Mixon would thrive in that schem, but he didn't. They could only change it on a bye week because of how much work it  takes, so they were stuck with it but then installed a whole new scheme in a week. It's an impressive feat. 

They also tried whatever they could changing the offensive line starters with Price Redmond Jerry. Trying to get the outside zone to work...

[Au165]

(12-13-2019, 11:28 AM)Synric Wrote: They also tried whatever they could changing the offensive line starters with Price Redmond Jerry. Trying to get the outside zone to work...

Yea, the article goes on to say they eventually figured out they didn't have the personnel to make the outside zone work and eventually had to just scrap trying it for something that allowed them to use what their guys had and that was athleticism to pull.

[*Synric*]

(12-13-2019, 11:30 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, the article goes on to say they eventually figured out they didn't have the personnel to make the outside zone work and eventually had to just scrap trying it for something that allowed them to use what their guys had and that was athleticism to pull.

If only they had some better receivers to complement the run game lol.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2019, 11:23 AM)Fullrock Wrote:  You're comparing apples to oranges. Pollack also had Glenn and Boling.

Again, you simply cannot change your entire run game blocking scheme while preparing for your next opponent. 

And the running scheme change turned it around BEFORE Glenn was back...and I haven't seen Boling out there this year. It's not like he returned.

Glenn was hurt last year too.

This team is just horribly coached. You guys are straining for positives.

The rushing offense was on historically bad pace for 8 games. Mixon knows. He gave Pollack a gameball after the Jets game.

[Au165]

(12-13-2019, 12:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And the running scheme change turned it around BEFORE Glenn was back...and I haven't seen Boling out there this year. It's not like he returned.

Glenn was hurt last year too.

This team is just horribly coached. You guys are straining for positives.

The rushing offense was on historically bad pace for 8 games. Mixon knows. He gave Pollack a gameball after the Jets game.

Pollack has been trash in New York, guy is the most overrated position coach I can remember. He got canned in Dallas because they knew it was the talent not him (which when healthy they have not lost a step with him gone). He couldn't get a better line last year to pass block any better than this line. He hasn't gotten the line in New York to do anything for one of the elite backs in the NFL. 

Think about this for a second, if he was so good when he left Dallas why did he end up here (a bad organization)? If he was so good when he left here why did he end up with the Jets (a bad organization)? Because people in the league know he really isn't anything special.

[depthchart]

(12-13-2019, 11:21 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Pollack was able to run from game 1 last year. It took this staff 8 games to figure it out.

Yeah! It took them 8 games of horrible rushing from last years AFC leading rusher...to figure out they needed to make changes. Wow! What great coaches!

But does it not show that this young Head Coach and fairly inexperienced Staff can possibly Learn as they go, gain experience, change and grow over time ? 

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 12:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You guys are straining for positives.

We are not the ones crying about our running game being top ten in yards and average over the last 5 weeks.

You are the one straining.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2019, 12:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: Pollack has been trash in New York, guy is the most overrated position coach I can remember. He got canned in Dallas because they knew it was the talent not him (which when healthy they have not lost a step with him gone). He couldn't get a better line last year to pass block any better than this line. He hasn't gotten the line in New York to do anything for one of the elite backs in the NFL. 

Think about this for a second, if he was so good when he left Dallas why did he end up here (a bad organization)? If he was so good when he left here why did he end up with the Jets (a bad organization)?  Because people in the league know he really isn't anything special.

So your point of why Pollack is bad is because he came to the Bengals? Wow - The future is bright here?

Wouldn't that make Turner and any other coach we've ever hired bad? Turner was radioactive in NFL circles. No team other than us would have hired him.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2019, 12:17 PM)depthchart Wrote: But does it not show that this young Head Coach and fairly inexperienced Staff can possibly Learn as they go, gain experience, change and grow over time ? 

Dude...we're 1-12. Wins are what matter.

You can look at teams like the Cardinals with an inexperience HC in Kingsbury who came in and visibly improve their entire offensive ranking.

Here...the improvement is we're not on historically bad rushing pace any more! Yay!

A team like the Dolphins are tanking, and you can point to a bunch of things Flores is doing to improve that team...and they have some wins.

Here...nope. Gotta just go with not being on historically bad pace as the improvement.

Basically ALL of the bad teams are playing better at the end of the year. And guess what, a lot of the good teams are too. Teams generally get better!

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(12-13-2019, 11:30 AM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, the article goes on to say they eventually figured out they didn't have the personnel to make the outside zone work and eventually had to just scrap trying it for something that allowed them to use what their guys had and that was athleticism to pull.

I wonder to what extent the personnel they originally intended to utilize in this system would have worked better?

There's obviously been no Williams, they didn't have Glenn (they'd already switched by the time he returned), maybe Boling - not sure to what extent he was in their plans and his retirement known. Hopkins was a surprise to start but he was thriving under their initial system and seems to have tailed off a little since then (is that fair and is that down to the scheme?).

https://twitter.com/PFF_Falcons/status/1120678360080949248

[Fullrock]

(12-13-2019, 12:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And the running scheme change turned it around BEFORE Glenn was back...and I haven't seen Boling out there this year. It's not like he returned.

Glenn was hurt last year too.

This team is just horribly coached. You guys are straining for positives.

The rushing offense was on historically bad pace for 8 games. Mixon knows. He gave Pollack a gameball after the Jets game.

If you don't think it's a positive that the staff was able to change the run blocking scheme DURING the season to completely turn around a historically bad first half of the season run game, then you're just being stubborn. I don't think anyone has said this staff has proven themselves to be good, but give credit where credit is due.

Also, the defense has seen a big improvement after the bye week. Anarumo and the defensive staff deserve some credit for that. It also helps when you can keep the other team's offense off the field with an effective running game.

There is plenty of criticism to go around on this coaching staff, which will always be the case on a football team that's 1-12, but refusal to acknowledge any positives is just silly. It wouldn't fit your agenda though.