(01-02-2020, 12:09 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: Looking at the list, Burrow is the best qb prospect since Andrew Luck. Mahomes may be better, but he wasnt a consensus top pick coming out. Burrow is widely viewed as the best prospect. You have to take him, especially after your current qb got you two wins and put you in position to draft number one overall. Yeah, the offensive line is more to blame. But you just cant miss out on a once in 5-7 year qb prospect when he’s staring you in the face.
Yep
I don't like putting a teams record down as a QB stat, there's so much else that comes into play. But having said that the Dalton led Bengals have a record (since the 4-1 start to 2018) of 4-20 !
You can site so many things as excuses, Oline, coaching, (ML and co. at helm for 2-9 finish to 2018) no AJ, no running game, defense, and on and on. But the QB is culpable in those loses as well no matter how you spin it.
The move down in the draft was a great move. We picked up an established LT which was a huge need.
The problem is the front office's lack of savvy. When it got close, IF Ragnow was truly the target, they should have flipped a 4th rounder to move up 2 spots.
(01-02-2020, 12:58 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The move down in the draft was a great move. We picked up an established LT which was a huge need.
The problem is the front office's lack of savvy. When it got close, IF Ragnow was truly the target, they should have flipped a 4th rounder to move up 2 spots.
How can you possibly say Glenn has worked out? Just because he’s been slightly better than the other scrubs (excluding Hopkins) on our OL doesn’t mean he’s played well here. Then there’s all the injuries, concussions, getting fined over not playing, etc. That deal has been terrible for us all around.
(01-02-2020, 01:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How can you possibly say Glenn has worked out? Just because he’s been slightly better than the other scrubs (excluding Hopkins) on our OL doesn’t mean he’s played well here. Then there’s all the injuries, concussions, getting fined over not playing, etc. That deal has been terrible for us all around.
I didn't say it worked out, I said at the time it was a good move. We slid back in the draft and in the process solved a major need. The problem was the injuries hit him and we completely missed on the next pick.
If we ended up with a normal Glenn and got Ragnow or Daniels, that trade looks genius.
(01-02-2020, 01:20 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I didn't say it worked out, I said at the time it was a good move. We slid back in the draft and in the process solved a major need. The problem was the injuries hit him and we completely missed on the next pick.
If we ended up with a normal Glenn and got Ragnow or Daniels, that trade looks genius.
It’s not a great move unless it actually works out. That’s like saying Preston Brown was great pickup because it was a huge need, and he was coming off leading the league in tackles.
(01-02-2020, 01:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s not a great move unless it actually works out. That’s like saying Preston Brown was great pickup because it was a huge need, and he was coming off leading the league in tackles.
The trade back to pick up a starting caliber LT when you had Ogbeui was a great move. You can't predict injuries.
Preston Brown was a poor fit here and everyone knew it.
Given the same situation, I would make that trade every time.
(01-02-2020, 01:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The trade back to pick up a starting caliber LT when you had Ogbeui was a great move. You can't predict injuries.
Preston Brown was a poor fit here and everyone knew it.
Given the same situation, I would make that trade every time.
I wouldn’t. We missed on getting Ragnow because of it, and we were forced to take another LT last year anyway.
(01-02-2020, 11:16 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: What I dislike about Burrow is a more accurate Dalton coming out of college and college success doesn't mean he will have success in the NFL. If ZT passing scheme as the OC is for short to intermediate routes than Burrow will be an excellent pick; however, if ZT wants to throw it down field 20-30+ yards Burrow arm isn't as strong as other QB in this draft class.
I can see a few teams actually wanting Burrow and throwing whatever they have to get him. If the goal for the Bengals is to hoard draft picks to help build the team and another team offers 2+ 1st round picks and a bevy of other picks for Burrow you have to consider it given the many holes the Bengals have.
dude, did you hear this bs on some stupid sports center set? andy dalton was nowhere close to joe burrow in competition, stats, playstyle, or anything.
I will do a full breakdown sometime over the next week showing the differences in their running, pocket presence, throwing motion, reads, arm strength. The two are worlds apart when you actually watch the tape and do research. I'm not a rah rah QB guy and never have been on these forums, Lamar Jackson was the only guy I've mocked to the team in the last 5 years. That said Joe Burrow is on another level than these other guys.
What I love about this article is that Burrow doesn't deflect the issue, but worked to improve it. As he physically matures it will increase further.
Here is an example of arm strength, but feel free to watch the full video to see all aspects of his game.
If I had one concern with Joe Burrow is that he still doesn't have the absolute perfect throwing motion to reach his full arm strength and he sometimes takes to many steps on the release, but these are easy things to fix with coaching because foundationally he's already so good. A NFL comparison as far as throwing motions are concerned I would compare him to is Peyton Manning. Brady is damn near a clone when it comes to body types with the kid, but Brady takes much larger steps and releases like a baseball pitcher. Joe Burrow typically stands a bit higher and takes a shorter last step, but this may be a result of his willingness to move out of the pocket and/or run.
If you compare the pass on the burrow video to the last throw shown on the manning video you can see fundamentally how good his motion is, but vertically he doesn't lower enough to get that full engagement of arm strength like manning did. Burrow's release is super fast and he throws tight spirals with pinpoint accuracy so on the NFL level this will transfer very well.
Anywho like I said I will do a full writeup probably after the combine when we have measurables and hopefully, he throws at the combine and pro day which will give us even a better look at all his throwing mechanics.
I have migrated to the 'pick Burrow' camp, but I won't jump off a bridge if they can collect a king's ransom for the pick. That's one of the reasons I wanted Dolegala to get some playing time. What a luxury it would be not to need a QB with the first pick, of course assuming Dolegala set the world on fire.
(01-02-2020, 12:42 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I just hope the Bengals have an open mind. Yes, Burrow would be a good fit. However, remember he has a great offensive line to work with. If a good trade opportunity comes about, at least consider it. I can see getting multiple first round picks and/or a slew of players for the first pick.
Rated well run blocking. Pass blocking...not so much.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(01-02-2020, 02:05 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We missed out on our guy we really wanted in Frank Ragnow, and ended up with Billy Price. Who is honestly in the running with Ross and Ogbuehi and our biggest bust in recent memory. There is no guarantee trading back will work out.
It’s inconceivable to me that I’m still seeing people talking about trading the #1OA at this point. I’d maybe understand if we were set with a young franchise QB already, and there was no unanimous #1 pick, but it couldn’t have worked out any better for us to finally bottom out in a year with a stud QB prospect coming out.
Please stop overthinking it so much. There’s no reason to get cute. Just make obvious choice and draft Joe Burrow. Period.
/end rant
Which positions are strengths for the team? My short list
1. RB
2. Pass catchers
3. DE/DT
4. Kicking
Which are mediocre?
1. DB's/Safeties
2. Center
Which are putrid?
1. LB
2. Oline
Lets say the Bengals do a trade with Miami and take all of Miami's three first round selections plus another 1st rnd pick next year, could they fix the putrid during Day 1? Absolutely as they start with pick #5 and that could net a RT and the other two picks net a LB, guard or DB's/Safeties.
So improved and allows FA to address the mediocre positions of which there are 4 or 5. The Bengals still have the nbr 33 pick so a first round quality pick to go with 3 picks on day 1.
Go into 2021 with Dalton and potentially a significantly improved team which played the toughest schedule in the NFL this season. Dalton has won a lot of games with a quality Oline hasn't he?
What if they stand pat could they still address the putrid? Obviously QB does nothing for LB but could help the Oline with faster release and quicker decision making. Top of round 2, pick 33, could definitely address LB or Oline but position wise almost as good as Miami's 25th pick. LB looks to be a weak position in the draft but not Oline. So by pick 33 the Bengals could have an elite QB and a better Oline with Jonah coming out as a rookie to join the nbr 33 pick. FA is then out there to address putrid LB and Oline, same as the first scenario.
I'm kinda of hoping the Browns talk to Miami.
Is it worth it for the Bengals to make a trade with Miami?
(01-02-2020, 02:32 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Which positions are strengths for the team? My short list
1. RB
2. Pass catchers
3. DE/DT
4. Kicking
Which are mediocre?
1. DB's/Safeties
2. Center
Which are putrid?
1. LB
2. Oline
Lets say the Bengals do a trade with Miami and take all of Miami's three first round selections plus another 1st rnd pick next year, could they fix the putrid during Day 1? Absolutely as they start with pick #5 and that could net a RT and the other two picks net a LB, guard or DB's/Safeties.
So improved and allows FA to address the mediocre positions of which there are 4 or 5. The Bengals still have the nbr 33 pick so a first round quality pick to go with 3 picks on day 1.
Go into 2021 with Dalton and potentially a significantly improved team which played the toughest schedule in the NFL this season. Dalton has won a lot of games with a quality Oline hasn't he?
What if they stand pat could they still address the putrid? Obviously QB does nothing for LB but could help the Oline with faster release and quicker decision making. Top of round 2, pick 33, could definitely address LB or Oline but position wise almost as good as Miami's 25th pick. LB looks to be a weak position in the draft but not Oline. So by pick 33 the Bengals could have an elite QB and a better Oline with Jonah coming out as a rookie to join the nbr 33 pick. FA is then out there to address putrid LB and Oline, same as the first scenario.
I'm kinda of hoping the Browns talk to Miami.
Is it worth it for the Bengals to make a trade with Miami?
You’re assuming all those picks you traded for actually pan out. That’s VERY unlikely. Most teams are lucky to get 2-3 solid starters any given year.
(01-02-2020, 02:32 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Which positions are strengths for the team? My short list
1. RB
2. Pass catchers
3. DE/DT
4. Kicking
Which are mediocre?
1. DB's/Safeties
2. Center
Which are putrid?
1. LB
2. Oline
Lets say the Bengals do a trade with Miami and take all of Miami's three first round selections plus another 1st rnd pick next year, could they fix the putrid during Day 1? Absolutely as they start with pick #5 and that could net a RT and the other two picks net a LB, guard or DB's/Safeties.
So improved and allows FA to address the mediocre positions of which there are 4 or 5. The Bengals still have the nbr 33 pick so a first round quality pick to go with 3 picks on day 1.
Go into 2021 with Dalton and potentially a significantly improved team which played the toughest schedule in the NFL this season. Dalton has won a lot of games with a quality Oline hasn't he?
What if they stand pat could they still address the putrid? Obviously QB does nothing for LB but could help the Oline with faster release and quicker decision making. Top of round 2, pick 33, could definitely address LB or Oline but position wise almost as good as Miami's 25th pick. LB looks to be a weak position in the draft but not Oline. So by pick 33 the Bengals could have an elite QB and a better Oline with Jonah coming out as a rookie to join the nbr 33 pick. FA is then out there to address putrid LB and Oline, same as the first scenario.
I'm kinda of hoping the Browns talk to Miami.
Is it worth it for the Bengals to make a trade with Miami?
Do you really think Miami makes that trade? I don't.
(01-02-2020, 01:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wouldn’t. We missed on getting Ragnow because of it, and we were forced to take another LT last year anyway.
And no team would ever make a mistake if they were able to see into the future. It is easy to claim you know exactly what to do when you already know how everything works out.
If we draft Borrow and he flops you will be here claiming the Bengals were stupid for not trading away the #1 pick.
(01-02-2020, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you are assuming that every QB taken #1 overall becomes a star while surrounded by a weak roster.
That’s an honest assessment. No one is arguing Joe Burrow isn’t the right pick at the right time. He is. My big issues are the scheme in which he’ll play and the players surrounding him. Note this well: I want Joe Burrow to be everything Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton were not. I want him to be clutch in prime time and money in the playoffs.
No great quarterback wins all by themselves when surrounded by mediocrity. Were that the case Archie Manning and the Saints would have won multiple Super Bowls in the 1970s. The same goes for a great runner surrounded by a lack of talent. Look at OJ Simpson for proof of this.
Terrible analysis - Tom Brady is an anomaly and probably would have been taken earlier if he was not part of a QB carousel his last year at Michigan. You can also factor in NFL draft tropes for why Wilson or Brees we’re not taken in the first such as height. Finally, your list did not contain the Manning bros or Roethlisberger. IMO, almost all the super bowl QBs not drafted in the first in the past 15 years would probably be drafted in the first now - look at Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, and Mahomes. The biggest argument you missed that you could have made were Luck, Phillip Rivers, and Stanford.
You can also further start to look at 1st round busts and see the pattern of taking QBs that look the part (Gabbert, Trubisky, Bortles) and also separating the 1st rounders into the category of say taken in the top 5, 10, late second half, etc. and you will find that Burrows traits are more aligned with the likes of successful QBs taken in the top-5. Injury issues should not be retroactively applied to analysis unless they were known before they were drafted (RG3, Palmer). Josh Rosen had all the signs of someone who was content with being a backup. Vince Young was mishandled. Tim Tebow and Manziel were never meant to do anything in the NFL. Leinart was a bro. The list goes on and on.
There are two scenarios that would benefit the Bengals trading down:
1.) I don’t think the Redskins, Giants, or Detroit are looking for a new QB but would be willing to trade up for Chase Young. I could see the case where there is a three way trade something akin to Giants trading up including their first, and then the Bengals trading some of those picks to the Redskins to lock in Burrow.
2.) Having a Ditka trade with the Dolphins and be fine with drafting Tua.
Bengals don’t usually partake in FA, but I could see an acquisition for a less costly position such as guard and then we go WR or defense in second round.
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