The last time we traded back in the 1st...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-03-2020, 04:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Are you new to this franchise? Having money to spend means nothing when you sign B.W. Webb and Bobby Hart. Mike Brown isn't going to magically wake up and decide to do things different after all these years.

Cool, we get Jonah back, still have Bobby Hart at RT, we have a C, but then what? Price at guard, was horrible, Jordan was hit or miss, Jonah fixes one spot, still have 3 holes and 2 picks.

I do see us getting back to back #1 picks. Especially if A.J. and Andy are both gone. Burrow might be good, but I asked earlier, who is he throwing to after Boyd?

And still, I want to know, if you draft Burrow and end up 2-14 again next year do you pass on Lawrence who is even better because you took Burrow? You won't get the trade capital for a player as you will for a pick (see Josh Rosen).

Ah so the snark is starting I see. You’re aware there’s a cap floor right? If Andy and AJ come off the books Mike Brown will have to spend some significant money.

And it’s likely that Fred Johnson will take the RT position away from Bobby Hart. The former looked very promising in the last couple games.

Who’s Burrow throwing to? It’s an extremely deep WR class, double up on a couple. I’d love to see Jefferson reunited with him here for some instant chemistry.

As for the hypothetical what if we end up with the #1 pick again next year (again, very unlikely) then it depends what Burrow looks like. If we think he’s a future franchise QB you take someone else other than Lawrence. Pretty simple really.

[RiverRat13]

(01-03-2020, 04:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And still, I want to know, if you draft Burrow and end up 2-14 again next year do you pass on Lawrence who is even better because you took Burrow? You won't get the trade capital for a player as you will for a pick (see Josh Rosen).

LOL. What team asks itself what you are asking? Nobody is going to plan based on such a hypothetical. And there is little reason to expect the Bengals to go 2-14 again. Yes, the roster has plenty of holes, but they went 0-8 in one score games against a difficult schedule. The odds tend to balance out close games and the Bengals will be touted as one to expect a jump in wins from in 2020 because of this. Burrow would have to be Finley level bad for the Bengals to go 2-14.

Picks are great, but you still have turn them into players. The Browns were lauded for trading back with the Falcons instead of taking Julio Jones, then turned all of those picks into a terrible group of players. Then the same thing happened a few years later when they traded back with Philly (who took Wentz).

There’s zero reason to believe Miami would give up most of the capital they’ve acquired to trade up for Burrow anyway, so all of this angst seems misplaced. If they did, the Bengals would have to think about taking it, but there’s a good argument to be made for a bare bones operation like the Bengals staying put and taking the best player.

[Whatever]

(01-03-2020, 03:47 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2020-nfl-draft-who-could-trade-up-for-joe-burrow-at-no-1-and-what-such-a-move-would-cost/



Look at this article and some of the draft capital we could gain by trading out of the top spot.

Next year has Lawrence, Justin Fields, Tua (guessing he goes back to show he is healthy), and Jake Frohm. Lots of talent there especially if you have built a roster this year by getting more guys. 

Trust me, I am all in on Trevor Lawrence, and if you move back from 1 this year and get an extra 1 next year, you have the draft capital to move up and get him next year after building up the roster around him.

None of those are actual trade offers.  They're hypotheticals, and even then, the low end offers suck.  

If Lawrence is your guy, and he's.a better prospect than Burrow, it will take more trade capital to move up and get him.  Plus, if next year's QB class is so great, why would any team with a bunch of premium pick trade for Burrow.  If using extra picks this year to fill holes for an incoming QB is the smart play, then those teams should just do that instead.

Lawrence is a good prospect, but people are putting him on a pedestal because his team is undefeated.  That's not just him.  That's his coaches and the talent around him, too.  If he was doing what he's currently doing on an 8-4 squad, nobody is talking about him as a 1OA.  His numbers are nowhere close to what DeShaun Watson did in the same offense.  

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-02-2020, 11:31 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Like Herbert’s big arm that threw for a whopping 138 yds yesterday in the Rose Bowl? Lol

People are too wrapped up in arm strength. Unless you have a complete noodle like Ryan Finley it is not that big of a deal. This mythical absolute perfect QB prospect people are looking for doesn’t exist. Burrow is as close as there’s been in years though. Lawrence might be even closer next next year, but we can’t worry about that right now.

I'm not sold on the HYPE of any draft pick because what they did in college may not translate to what they will do in the NFL.  Just look at the first round QB bust that were sure things that simply didnt' pan out. Also, the NFL player level/skill are higher than the college ranks. Yes Burrow is a stud of a QB at the college level but how will he fair in the NFL? Does ZT scheme of playing calling matches up to Burrow play style and if not why waste a pick on a player that may not even fit into the scheme. 

IF and I mean IF Burrow fits the Bengals offensive scheme than go ahead and select him. If not, don't waste that pick on him. Instead trade back and pick the player they prefer. 

[*Nately120*]

(01-03-2020, 04:03 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: IF and I mean IF Burrow fits the Bengals offensive scheme than go ahead and select him. If not, don't waste that pick on him. Instead trade back and pick the player they prefer. 

If Burrow doesn't fit whatever half-assed scheme ZT and his group of resume-free buddies have we should drop all of them and replace them with coaches who WILL fit Burrow.  We won't, but we should.

[Bengalsrob]

(01-03-2020, 02:10 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Good thing most sensible people already were set on Burrow before the playoffs. I was referring to the OH St homers that were still clinging to their hopes of taking Chase Young. And people like you who basically think QB is one of the least important aspects of building a good team lol

Of all the teams IN the playoffs, all seem to have above average to elite QB's, and sure; some have great defenses as well. Of teams NOT in the playoffs, Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack along with Von Miller are watching the games from the sidelines like us. Chase Young may be the consensus best defensive player, but he missed a season being suspended? He may turn out to be topnotch defender in the mold of say a Lawrence Taylor, but then again he may be the defensive version of Antonio Brown, just a nut. Either way, I'd pass on him. IMO, quarterback is THE most important position on any team, and where you have to start building around. I haven't kept up due to health reasons, but don't we have a 1st round tackle coming off injury next year? A topnotch QB along with a tackle would sure be a good start, and our 2nd rounder is nearly a late first rounder, 3rd nearly a 2nd, and so on. Burrow is a no-brainer to me, and I think he will still be after the Clemson game. Oh, and someone mentioned Greg Cook as one of those draft "mistakes". Being one of the few on here old enough to remember, he was anything but. An injury ran the train off the track when a torn rotator cuff which they gave him cortisone shots for, and he played in pain until he could no longer play, the injury went undiagnosed and it destroyed his career. Back then, there wasn't a lot they could do anyway. After he passed away in 2012, Mike Brown called him "the single most talented player ever to play for the Bengals." Bill Walsh called him "a great, great talent and a terrible shame." He went on to say he would have actually changed the West Coast offense and that he would have set records that would have never been broken. Sadly, he passed away in 2012. Enough about the past let's hope Burrow is all we hope for, and we draft well. Probably never happen, but a few free agent moves probably wouldn't hurt anything either; but I won't hold my breath.[url=https://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/1/27/2752262/cincinnati-bengals-university-cincinnati-bearcats-greg-cook-died][/url]

[Nicomo Cosca]

^yeah we will basically have 2 rookie 1st rounders coming in this season with Burrow and Jonah Williams.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:32 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The O-line is just a train wreck

(the O-line he has in LSU won the award for nation's best O-line, going from that to 32 of 32 will be a culture shock.)

The Bengals offensive line graded at 71 or better the last 5 weeks and 6 out of the last 8. 
LSU won an award called the "Joe Moore award", which was first given as an award in 2015.
The Football Outsiders results that i posted are more accurate of how offensive lines produced this year. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 04:00 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This team is not close, this season should show that. There is a real good chance we pick #1 again in the 2021 draft. 

7 losses by a toucdown or less and another loss by 8 and a QB setting records in the best conference in college can't help the Bengals win more?

Child please. 

Average teams can usually look at that stat and see they won about half of those games. The Bengals won none of them this year. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-03-2020, 10:52 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 7 losses by a toucdown or less and another loss by 8 and a QB setting records in the best conference in college can't help the Bengals win more?

Child please. 

Average teams can usually look at that stat and see they won about half of those games. The Bengals won none of them this year. 

No doubt. Burrow should move that arrow around quite a bit along with improved coaching and a few new players.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 10:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: No doubt. Burrow should move that arrow around quite a bit along with improved coaching and a few new players.

As sucky as Mike Brown is, no one can overcome the law of large numbers. 2011-2015 shows that. The way the NFL is set up won't allow it either. It may be just dumb luck...or in this case, MB suckiness allowing them to draft a better QB at just the right time, but teams that get down, can't stay down.



Except the Browns. But they're not normal.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-03-2020, 11:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: As sucky as Mike Brown is, no one can overcome the law of large numbers. 2011-2015 shows that. The way the NFL is set up won't allow it either. It may be just dumb luck...or in this case, MB suckiness allowing them to draft a better QB at just the right time, but teams that get down, can't stay down.



Except the Browns. But they're not normal.

Yes, just great timing to be so shitty when such a good QB is there for the taking honestly.

We needed this guy named Joe Burrow at this time.

Perfect QB for this franchise. Just give him a good O-line in front of him and good weapons to work with.

Could grow from the worst O in the league to one of the best and this will only help the D.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 11:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, just great timing to be so shitty when such a good QB is there for the taking honestly.

We needed this guy named Joe Burrow at this time.

Perfect QB for this franchise. Just give him a good O-line in front of him and good weapons to work with.

Could grow from the worst O in the league to one of the best and this will only help the D.

They did what the colts did in their one bad year. Except the Colts were just coming off the Manning era and they didn't do enough to protect Luck...

So if Burrow can do what Luck did (he won a few PO games), how can that not be a W?

A good QB can make an average line look good. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(01-03-2020, 10:20 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote: Oh, and someone mentioned Greg Cook as one of those draft "mistakes". Being one of the few on here old enough to remember, he was anything but. An injury ran the train off the track when a torn rotator cuff which they gave him cortisone shots for, and he played in pain until he could no longer play, the injury went undiagnosed and it destroyed his career. Back then, there wasn't a lot they could do anyway. After he passed away in 2012, Mike Brown called him "the single most talented player ever to play for the Bengals." Bill Walsh called him "a great, great talent and a terrible shame." He went on to say he would have actually changed the West Coast offense and that he would have set records that would have never been broken. Sadly, he passed away in 2012. Enough about the past let's hope Burrow is all we hope for, and we draft well. Probably never happen, but a few free agent moves probably wouldn't hurt anything either; but I won't hold my breath.[url=https://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/1/27/2752262/cincinnati-bengals-university-cincinnati-bearcats-greg-cook-died][/url]

Greg Cook was mentioned by me . . . but I never called him a mistake. I just listed every 1st round QB drafted by the Bengals so maybe you were thinking I was linking him in with a bunch of mistakes. In accident, yes, I was mostly listing a bunch of mistakes, but I was intentionally just trying to point out that 1st round QBs don't do well in the Brown family's Bengals

My words about Greg Cook

Quote:Do you consider Carson Palmer a success?


Akili?
Klingler?
Jack Thompson?
Greg Cook was good but he didn't last long.

That's what often happens to a QB on a team that isn't very good, especially one that doesn't have a good line to protect him.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(01-03-2020, 11:13 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: They did what the colts did in their one bad year. Except the Colts were just coming off the Manning era and they didn't do enough to protect Luck...

So if Burrow can do what Luck did (he won a few PO games), how can that not be a W?

A good QB can make an average line look good. 

Speaking of Luck . . . ah . . . nevermind. I guess his 5 and a half seasons before being knocked out of the league are enough. They'll most likely be drafting Burrow's replacement in four or five years.

A bad line can make a good QB go away.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-03-2020, 11:13 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: They did what the colts did in their one bad year. Except the Colts were just coming off the Manning era and they didn't do enough to protect Luck...

So if Burrow can do what Luck did (he won a few PO games), how can that not be a W?

A good QB can make an average line look good. 

At least we have a good Center now.

Jonah hopefully will take care of Burrow's blind side.

(01-03-2020, 11:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Speaking of Luck . . . ah . . . nevermind. I guess his 5 and a half seasons before being knocked out of the league are enough. They'll most likely be drafting Burrow's replacement in four or five years.

A bad line can make a good QB go away.

Very true. Need to fix the O-line to help this guy out. Doesn't matter who it is without a decent O-line.

This Fred Johnson guy seemed alright and better than Hart but we need to keep on improving.

I like what Turner did with the O-line as the year went on, they improved. Add some more talent and keep it up.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 11:32 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Speaking of Luck . . . ah . . . nevermind. I guess his 5 and a half seasons before being knocked out of the league are enough. They'll most likely be drafting Burrow's replacement in four or five years.

A bad line can make a good QB go away.

Usually it takes a bad line + a guy that thinks he can take all those hits. That's what did Luck in. David Carr got sacked a lot more than Luck and last a lot longer. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-03-2020, 11:25 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Greg Cook was mentioned by me . . . but I never called him a mistake. I just listed every 1st round QB drafted by the Bengals so maybe you were thinking I was linking him in with a bunch of mistakes. In accident, yes, I was mostly listing a bunch of mistakes, but I was intentionally just trying to point out that 1st round QBs don't do well in the Brown family's Bengals

My words about Greg Cook
That's what often happens to a QB on a team that isn't very good, especially one that doesn't have a good line to protect him.

Vinyl I'm really not trying to be an ass here but I just don't understand what you're trying to say here ? I'm not talking about Cook.

Are you saying the Bengals/Fans should just stick with lesser QB's and accept mediocrity ? 

The only chance we have is to find a Tom Brady in the late rounds ?

Lets say we find 3 stud, all pro Olinemen in the off season this year and go 8-8 with QB Snigglehopper. You think MB is gonna trade up from 17 to 1 to get Lawrence or whoever ?

What if we find this stud Oline and they all go down to career ending injuries, leave in free agency, decide to retire, etc.

I just don't understand how getting a possible great QB is viewed as bad ?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-03-2020, 11:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Vinyl I'm really not trying to be an ass here but I just don't understand what you're trying to say here ? I'm not talking about Cook.

Are you saying the Bengals/Fans should just stick with lesser QB's and accept mediocrity ? 

The only chance we have is to find a Tom Brady in the late rounds ?

Lets say we find 3 stud, all pro Olinemen in the off season this year and go 8-8 with QB Snigglehopper. You think MB is gonna trade up from 17 to 1 to get Lawrence or whoever ?

What if we find this stud Oline and they all go down to career ending injuries, leave in free agency, decide to retire, etc.

I just don't understand how getting a possible great QB is viewed as bad ?

It is not. Take Burrow, shouldn't even be a discussion unless he was like Tua and had a devastating injury.

[Benton]

(01-02-2020, 08:33 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Yeah, how dare anybody think differently than you.

Miss on an o-lineman picked in the 20s once so never trade back again. Taking an early QB on a shit team got us two winning seasons out of eight after Palmer was drafted but it also led to Klingler and Akili. So we should just forget about that but don't forget about Billy Price?

The last first round QB drafted in the last 15 years to win a Super Bowl was drafted in 2008, Joe Flacco

1st round QBs since 2005
2019:
1. Kyler Murray
6. Daniel Jones
15 Dwayne Haskins

2018:
1. Baker Mayfield
3. Sam Darnold
7. Josh Allen
10. Josh Rosen
32. Lamar Jackson

2017:
2. Mitchel Trubisky
10. Patrick Mahomes
12. DeShaun Watson

2016:
1. Jared Goff - 1 Super Bowl loss
2. Carson Wentz - had a great partial season but it was Nick Foles that got them the Super Bowl title
26. Paxton Lynch

2015:
1. Jameis Winston
2. Marcus Mariota

2014:
3. Blake Bortles
22. Johnny Manziel
32. Teddy Bridgewater

2013:
16. EJ Manuel

2012:
1. Andrew Luck
2. Robert Griffin III
8. Ryan Tannehill
22. Brandon Weeden

2011:
1. Cam Newton - 1 Super Bowl loss
8. Jake Locker
10. Blaine Gabbert
12. Christian Ponder

2010:
1. Sam Bradford
25. Tim Tebow

2009:
1. Matthew Stafford
5. Mark Sanchez
17. Josh Freeman

2008:
3. Matt Ryan - 1 Super Bowl loss
18. Joe Flacco - 1 Super Bowl Championship

2007:
1. JaMarcus Russell
22. Brady Quinn

2006:
3. Vince Young
10. Matt Leinart
11. Jay Cutler

2005:
1. Alex Smith
24. Aaron Rodgers - 1 Super Bowl Championship
25. Jason Campbell

From 2005 to 2016, 32 first round QBs were drafted. Most of them never saw a 2nd contract with the team that drafted them.

5 Super Bowl berths by 5 different QBs.
2 Super Bowl Championships - Flacco(#18 overall) and Rodgers(#24 overall).

Both of those QBs went to good teams. Flacco always played with a great defense and would have never made the Super Bowl if not for a terrible play on a Hail Mary by a safety at the end of the Bronco playoff game. In fact, if Ray Rice doesn't take a short dump off for a 1st down on 4th and 29 against the Chargers, they wouldn't have even made the playoffs that season.

Rodgers sat for three years and then he took over a team that lost in the Championship game and went 13-3 the year before. He prepared for the Bears, Lions and Vikings and studied their rosters seven times each before he ever faced them as a starter.

More recently, Mahomes took over a team that went 9-6 before Mahomes started the final game of the season.
One loss by 11 points(@ Cowboys)
Five losses by seven points or less
Three wins by eight points or less (Mahomes 3 point win)
Seven wins by more than 8 points

All of that with a stiff like Alex Smith at QB.

1st round QBs usually do well when they move onto good teams.  For some reason, 1st round QBs that move onto bad teams don't seem to last too long.

Lots of good points, but, honestly, during that stretch, you probably didn't win a super bowl unless your name was Brady or Roethlisberger. And that's more about the teams than the skill of the QBs, even Peyton Manning didn't do that great with super bowls, but it wasn't because he was some overrated scrub.

As far as this draft, I don't see a lot of reason to drop back. There's very few linebackers that get me excited, even fewer quarterbacks and no ol. I'd be fine with burrow or young, but those are going to be picks 1 & 2.