Stop comparing Joe Burrow to Dalton

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 11:28 AM)depthchart Wrote: So what would your ultimate move be then Fred ?


Would you extend Dalton (say thru 2025) and not Draft a rookie QB high in the 2020 Draft ?

Would you pass on Burrow and Draft some other rookie QB in the 2020 Draft ?  (and who might that QB be?)

Would you ride with Dalton in 2020 and Draft a QB in the 2021 Draft ? (and who might that QB be?)

Would you bring in a Veteran Free Agent QB?  (an who might that QB be?)


At some point a decision has to be made; what would your decision be then ?




.

Probably trade back and draft a different QB this year.  At this point it is hard to say who would be the best option.  The full draft evaluation has not even started.  People forget that at this time in 2013 Teddy Bridgewater was a top five pick.  In '15 Carson Wentz was a late-first early-second round prospect.  Same for Josh Allen in '17.

The trade value of a top 5 pick is generally grossly overvalued.  They often bring a shitload of picks in return yet over the last 20 years only about 1/3rd of the time has the best QB in the draft been selected in the top 5.  So we would have to look closely at what QB to target and how far top trade back.

Keep in mind that it takes two teams to trade.  Too often I hear fans say that if there is not a player available that we want at a certain pick that we should just trade back.  But sometimes that is impossible because there is not another team willing to give up decent value to trade up.

And I also may change my opinion on Burrows when the in-depth draft evaluation is complete.  But right now I am really concerned that he was never a good QB in 4 years and then became great over-night with a new coach and receivers.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 01:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Because of the supporting cast around him. 
That's why people say "in spite of". 

In 2015 the Bengals were 10-2 with the #4 scoring offense and 3 wins against playoff teams with Dalton at QB.

Without him they had the #12 scoring offense and could not beat a team that finished better than 5-11.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 12:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: But all of them were deemed upgrades from Dalton by....... 

You can say that till the day you pass on from this earth and it won't be any more true.

People wanted to move on from Dalton because they knew what the Bengals had in him. They wanted someone that could get them over the top, for once. 

You can't just pluck people out of thin air, so the only option is guys on the roster. 

Stop trying to make it out like everyone that wanted Dalton out believed that the guy(s) behind him were better. People just wanted to try something different. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 12:58 PM)jj22 Wrote: No Finley was deemed an upgrade and called to start over Dalton well before the season was lost. Let's not rewrite history.

Only a playoff victory or 5 straight playoff runs will silence Dalton supporters. And rightfully so. We can't pump up these QB's that end up having less success as a Bengal as Dalton led teams did. I mean folks will, but results matter. The idea folks prefer losing seasons over playoff seasons that ended in playoff losses will get old eventually. It did for me after 4 losing seasons. Hopefully the argument will be moot in this next Burrow era.

Dalton had everything around him for several years (including tweaks to the roster here and there) and couldn't get it done. 

He is not able to even play decently in the higher profile games. 

Total dud when it comes to getting to the next level. He was, is and will always be average, at best, without a great supporting cast around him. But even with it, he can't get the job done.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Want me to go dig up all those posts about how much superior Finley's "pocket presence" was to Dalton's?

Yes, do that, because it is. 

The fact he's worse in other areas and doesn't have an NFL type arm don't remove the fact he was able to move around and avoid sacks that Dalton would have taken. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 01:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2015 the Bengals were 10-2 with the #4 scoring offense and 3 wins against playoff teams with Dalton at QB.

Without him they had the #12 scoring offense and could not beat a team that finished better than 5-11.

TEN full years in the league and you can find a 10 game stretch that he played at a top 5 QB level. Congrats. 

What exactly did that win the Bengals?

It's amazingly baffling that people want to hang on to such an average, can't get over the top quarterback who is going into his 11th year when they have their choice of QBs coming into the league this year and one guy has set a bunch of records in a great conference. 

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 01:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I also may change my opinion on Burrows when the in-depth draft evaluation is complete.  But right now I am really concerned that he was never a good QB in 4 years and then became great over-night with a new coach and receivers.

So you freely admit you have no idea what you're talking about and will change your opinion when someone like Mel Kiper tells you too.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:04 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yes, do that, because it is. 

The fact he's worse in other areas and doesn't have an NFL type arm don't remove the fact he was able to move around and avoid sacks that Dalton would have taken. 

Finley was sacked almost TWICE as often as Dalton.  Once ever 7.9 attempts compared to once every 14.3 for Dalton.

And Finley was stripped of the ball over THREE TIMES as often as Dalton.  Once every 21.8 attempts compared to once every 66 attempts for Dalton.

Finley's pocket presence was shit compared to Dalton.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:09 PM)Synric Wrote: So you freely admit you have no idea what you're talking about and will change your opinion when someone like Mel Kiper tells you too.

What is really funny to me...and this shouldn't have to be pointed out...is that people talk about how much better he got with better receivers.

College receivers...draft pics sure, but college receivers.

HELLO??? He's going into the NFL, where he will be throwing to...BETTER RECEIVERS THAN GUYS IN COLLEGE. 

But he's not going to be able to do well because in his one year of greatness, he threw to better COLLEGE receivers than the year(s) before?

GTFO with that stupid shit. And all the other stupid arguments while "you're" at it. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Finley was sacked almost TWICE as often as Dalton.  Once ever 7.9 attempts compared to once every 14.3 for Dalton.

And Finley was stripped of the ball over THREE TIMES as often as Dalton.  Once every 21.8 attempts compared to once every 66 attempts for Dalton.

Finley's pocket presence was shit compared to Dalton.

You really think sack numbers are an indication of movement in the pocket?

No.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You really think sack numbers are an indication of movement in the pocket?

No.

So taking a sack and not protecting the ball have nothing to do with pocket presence?

WTF are we even talking about then?  Whatever it is I will take 50% fewer sacks and one-third the number of fumbles over your idea of "pocket presence".

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I will admit that I do not have the knowledge or resources to be an NFL scout.

Oh...so you can't watch Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady or Russell Wilson or Andy Dalton and be able to recognize and verbalize what makes them different; why one is better or worse than the other?

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 01:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Because of the supporting cast around him. 
That's why people say "in spite of". 

That might be an answer for one year but 5 straight?

No other team outside those 3 (Pats, Saints, Seahawks) had equal/similar supporting cast?

A lot of teams have/had better supporting casts and didn't have a run like that "in spite of" their bum QB.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:09 PM)Synric Wrote: So you freely admit you have no idea what you're talking about and will change your opinion when someone like Mel Kiper tells you too.

Yes I will admit that I do not have the knowledge or resources to be an NFL scout.

How many college QB workouts are you going to be attending and when are your interviews scheduled with all of them?

Aren't you one of the guys who complains about our small scouting department? What is the problem if all they need to do is watch a couple of college games on TV to know everything about the players?

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:22 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Oh...so you can't watch Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady or Russell Wilson or Andy Dalton and be able to recognize and verbalize what makes them different; why one is better or worse than the other?

No.  I can't analyze footwork or delivery motion.  I can't analyze the complex route combination and or the way defenses disguise their coverage schemes to understand why the QB made good or bad decisions. 

And I definitely can not watch college QBs scorched inferior competition and tell which ones will transfer their skills to the NFL while others will flop.

Aren't you one of the people who complain about our small scouting department?  why do we need any scouts at all when we have an owner who (unlike you) actually played QB in college?  Surely he can just watch a few college games on TV and know which players are the best, right? 

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 01:30 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: .
Mahomes, Wilson, Brees and Brady all have something that has eluded Dalton his whole career, A playoff WIN. All the Dalton Gangers want to compare Dalton to the greats solely for the fact that he made the playoff five years straight.

You got to get there to win one. And none of the Qb's you've pumped up on the board as our future could even get us there. So..... What exactly are you arguing again?

Oh that's right. You slam 5 straight playoff seasons as nothing just because the qb's you chose could never.

We are on to you.

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 01:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You can say that till the day you pass on from this earth and it won't be any more true.

People wanted to move on from Dalton because they knew what the Bengals had in him. They wanted someone that could get them over the top, for once. 

You can't just pluck people out of thin air, so the only option is guys on the roster. 

Stop trying to make it out like everyone that wanted Dalton out believed that the guy(s) behind him were better. People just wanted to try something different. 

Guy we know yall called for Finley/McCarron/Driskel to start over Dalton. Not trying to dig up old post, because I really don't have to. It's common knowledge Dalton haters have swung and missed on these QBs' that were supposedly upgrades over Dalton. Like Dalton "haters" poor scouting of QB's is the worst kept secret on the boards. Now folks try to rewrite history because... well... they know they've swung and missed. But it's not that easy.

[jj22]

(01-03-2020, 02:02 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Dalton had everything around him for several years (including tweaks to the roster here and there) and couldn't get it done. 

He is not able to even play decently in the higher profile games. 

Total dud when it comes to getting to the next level. He was, is and will always be average, at best, without a great supporting cast around him. But even with it, he can't get the job done.

Either the scout, Tobin and the FO sucks or they don't. But Dalton haters trying to now boost up our roster now after years of complaining about the FO "Model Model", failed first round picks and overall drafts (no probowlers since 2012) is just another twist and turn to downplay 5 straight playoff seasons.

Why folks won't wait until we go to the playoffs 5+ straight years to brag about the lameness of 5 straight playoff seasons is beyond me. Actually it isn't. They don't bother waiting until the record run is broken because they know it likely won't be (if it wasn't for Burrow), after 10 more lost seasons they'd look even worse shaming the run. So get it out now. As if not respecting it after 4 losing seasons wasn't bad enough, it will only get worse if Burrow for some unforeseen reason doesn't work out.

[Catmandude123]

(01-03-2020, 02:29 PM)jj22 Wrote: You got to get there to win one. And none of the Qb's you've pumped up on the board as our future could even get us there. So..... What exactly are you arguing again?

Oh that's right. You slam 5 straight playoff seasons as nothing just because the qb's you chose could never.

We are on to you.

Got there five times and Andy lost four in a row. That is the bigger fact.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 02:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: Either the scout, Tobin and the FO sucks or they don't. But Dalton haters trying to now boost up our roster now after years of complaining about the FO "Model Model", failed first round picks and overall drafts (no probowlers since 2012) is just another twist and turn to downplay 5 straight playoff seasons.

It is like they are running in circles.

"Burrow might not want to come to the Bengals because all they did was surround Dalton with the best talent in the league. Derp."

Makes perfect sense, right?