Stop comparing Joe Burrow to Dalton

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year.

In 2018 he was the 12th ranked QB in the 14 team SEC behind a lot of guys you never heard of.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-03-2020, 04:15 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: I'm not sold on Burrow just yet. Not until I see him actually play at the NFL level in a game that matters. If the Bengals select him I will support the team still. But I'm not onboard with the Burrow pick because most QB drafted in the 1st round are bust or simply don't live up to where they were selected. 

My thinking is to see what Joe Burrow and the LSU offense can do against Clemson's defense.  Clemson's Brent Venables is, in my humble opinion, the best defensive coordinator in college football and his schemes are outstanding.  To my mind, going up against Clemson's defense might be the best preview of what Joe will encounter in the NFL.  Joe did very well against some very good defenses like Georgia and Alabama but Clemson's defense plays at another level.

[Fullrock]

(01-03-2020, 04:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I ahve no idea what you are talking about here.  Eli Manning had an incredible career and is still in the top 5 in many SEC passing catagories.

Drew Brees finished in the top 5 in Heisman voting twice yet you claim he never had a good year?

Brees finished top 5 in Heisman voting because he threw for a lot of yards and TD's in a time where option and wishbone offenses were still prevalent, but he also threw 45 INT's in 37 games as a starter. You said Burrow didn't have a good year last year, yet his QB rating last year was better last year than in 2 of Brees' 3 years as a starter. The one year Brees had a better QB rating than Burrow's last year, he threw 20 INT's in 13 games. Not exactly a stellar season.

[Fullrock]

(01-03-2020, 04:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I ahve no idea what you are talking about here.  Eli Manning had an incredible career and is still in the top 5 in many SEC passing catagories.

Drew Brees finished in the top 5 in Heisman voting twice yet you claim he never had a good year?

I will have to backpedal a little on Manning. He did have 2 seasons that would have been better than Burrow's last year, but his junior year he threw for 21 TD's and 15 INT's. Not good.

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2020, 04:15 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Does anyone remember when the game where someone went  35/51, 68% completion, 2 TD, 0 Int, and over 400 yards. 

Do you know what game I'm referring to? If not it was Dalton's first game this season where a WIN should have happened but it didn't because the coaches FAILED and not the QB. The QB delivered a winning performance and he was rewarded with a loss. 

Dalton can play and play to a high level vs. good teams. Just like Burrow, Dalton plays bad as well. 

Burrow did great this year and had fantastic stats, but that doesn't mean it will translate to the NFL. 

I'm not sold on Burrow just yet. Not until I see him actually play at the NFL level in a game that matters. If the Bengals select him I will support the team still. But I'm not onboard with the Burrow pick because most QB drafted in the 1st round are bust or simply don't live up to where they were selected. 

I rather have extract picks to help fill the many holes on the team. 

It's fair to have concerns about how Burrow will do in the NFL, as it is with any prospect. I mean, there's no way of knowing until we actually see him play. But, we do know how Andy has translated in 9 years. He's been a decent starting QB, but never quite good enough to ascend to the next level. I've always been an Andy supporter but the reality is that he's only has a passer rating of 90 or more twice in his entire career,. Also, if we're going to give him a fair amount of credit for the 50-26-1 record he compiled during his first 5 years (which I do) ...then we also have to place a fair share of the blame for his 20-35-1 record over the past 4 years. 

At this point, I just think it's time to move on and try to improve with someone else at that position...the most important position, IMO. There's no doubt that Andy has been criticized far too harshly at times, but it's also true that he has earned honest criticism on many occasions based on his own performance, especially the inconsistency that has always plagued him. Like I said, I've always rooted for Andy, but after 9 years, I'm rooting for someone different to lead us into the future. Hopefully, Burrow can be that guy.

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2020, 04:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2018 he was the 12th ranked QB in the 14 team SEC behind a lot of guys you never heard of.

Go watch some of his games from last year, and tell me if you don't notice the obvious talent and potential, regardless of rankings. If you don't, then we are just seeing different things, but that's fine as well.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-03-2020, 03:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on your logic it would be impossible for the Bengals to have won a playoff game with Anderson.

Wrong

[TheBengalsMind]

(01-03-2020, 03:54 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: For anyone who watched Burrow last year, or has gone back to watch games, you can clearly see the signs that what he's doing this year isn't exactly 'one hit wonder' stuff. Last year. he operated very effectively and efficiently in the system that he was given to work with, and made quite a few plays that we see on a more regular basis this year. Working in Brady's system, he has been able to showcase his skill set to the max, and develop those talents to an even greater level. 

Has Brady's system helped him and allowed him to flourish? Sure. Has the weapons around him helped elevate his play? No doubt. The thing is though, if you watch Joe this year, he makes the Tigers better as well. He also elevates the play of those around him. He gives his play makers opportunity after opportunity to shine. His performance when under pressure, or when forced to improvise, shouldn't be overlooked either. 

The kid has worked his ass off to get to this point and he has continued to develop and improve his talents. His calm, cool and collected style...along with the natural moxy and leadership he brings, makes him a very 'complete' QB in my opinion. He may not be the most talented overall, or the most naturally gifted...but when you account for everything he does offer, it definitely makes him 1st pick of the draft worthy.

I couldn't agree more.

If you want to know how LSU got so good from one year to the next, why Joe Burrow made such a huge rise in his game.

It is completely explained in two words: Work Ethic!

The LSU wr's were ranked as one of the single worst units in all of college football in 2018.

In 2018, LSU finished 96th among FBS teams in catch percentage, reeling in just 84.3% of catchable targets (ones that hit you right in the hands), according to Pro Football Focus. 

In 13 games, the Tigers dropped 26 passes, LSU's receivers accounting for 21 of those drops.

Joe Brady told the wr's for every time you drop the ball, your to drop to the ground and do 20 pushups. 

Joe Brady who gave his receivers one goal this summer: they were required to each catch 10,000 passes this summer.

If your Joe Burrow and your the guy that has to throw those 10,000 to 5-7 different guys that's 70,000 passing in a couple of weeks before the season.

That's 70,000 passes!!! To be fair not all 70,000 were from him, but a lot were.

All the while being compared to Drew Brees, everytime it wasn't perfect like Drew Brees that was unacceptable.

Brett Favre has the most attempted passes in NFL history with 10,169 and that's in a career.

Is it any wonder that they got better?

By the way they didn't just catch the ball.

They had to catch them behind a door. 

Catch them on the jugs machines.

Catch them with nets over your head and goggles over your eyes and a camera on your head!


“It just blocks the vision off from both sides so you have to focus on the ball,” Marshall says of the goggles. “Instead of the ball coming past your eyes so you won't see it, you've got to keep it in front of you to catch it.”

In other words, they had to be so precise and dedicated to the passing attack, that they had to do it blind!

You work that hard, and you'll get better.

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 04:32 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Brees finished top 5 in Heisman voting because he threw for a lot of yards and TD's in a time where option and wishbone offenses were still prevalent, but he also threw 45 INT's in 37 games as a starter. You said Burrow didn't have a good year last year, yet his QB rating last year was better last year than in 2 of Brees' 3 years as a starter. The one year Brees had a better QB rating than Burrow's last year, he threw 20 INT's in 13 games. Not exactly a stellar season.

Based on this logic Dalton is a much better QB than Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, and a whole bunch of Hall of Famers.

Weak sauce.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-03-2020, 04:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's fair to have concerns about how Burrow will do in the NFL, as it is with any prospect. I mean, there's no way of knowing until we actually see him play. But, we do know how Andy has translated in 9 years. He's been a decent starting QB, but never quite good enough to ascend to the next level. I've always been an Andy supporter but the reality is that he's only has a passer rating of 90 or more twice in his entire career,. Also, if we're going to give him a fair amount of credit for the 50-26-1 record he compiled during his first 5 years (which I do) ...then we also have to place a fair share of the blame for his 20-35-1 record over the past 4 years. 

At this point, I just think it's time to move on and try to improve with someone else at that position...the most important position, IMO. There's no doubt that Andy has been criticized far too harshly at times, but it's also true that he has earned honest criticism on many occasions based on his own performance, especially the inconsistency that has always plagued him. Like I said, I've always rooted for Andy, but after 9 years, I'm rooting for someone different to lead us into the future. Hopefully, Burrow can be that guy.

IMO, use the draft to help fix the issues with the team. QB, OL, LB, etc... there are more holes to fill than the team has draft picks. They need not only FA to fill those holes but additional draft picks and the best way to get additional picks is to trade back in the 1st round; you may lose the Burrow but if it helps the team out you do it. 

Also, any other draft Hebert would be the top QB selected but with Burrow there he becomes the 2nd best QB prospect behind Burrow. Both are good but if you can help improve the team further by acquiring additional talent you do it. 

The only issue I have with all draft picks is you don't know who will pan out, so picking Burrow or trading back in the 1st round and going after maybe Hebert and acquiring another pick is also a risk as the additional pick and maybe Hebert won't pan out. 

Whatever happens I'm still a fan of this team and I'll support whoever is the QB next year, well I won't support Finley, that will be a line I draw and if he is the QB next year, GO PATS and I really hate the PATS. LOL... 

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 04:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Go watch some of his games from last year, and tell me if you don't notice the obvious talent and potential, regardless of rankings. If you don't, then we are just seeing different things, but that's fine as well.

You never saw it last year either.  No one did.

If I am wrong then post some preseason publication that predicted Burrow would be this good this year.

Admittedly I did not watch every LSU game last year.  I just remember that he struggled in the big ones he lost against Florida and Alabama.  

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-03-2020, 04:15 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: I'm not sold on Burrow just yet. Not until I see him actually play at the NFL level in a game that matters. If the Bengals select him I will support the team still. But I'm not onboard with the Burrow pick because most QB drafted in the 1st round are bust or simply don't live up to where they were selected. 

Pardon my rudeness, but not only is that blatantly false, but how ignorant can you be?

EVERY position has the same potential to be a bust in the 1st round and this objectively false to boot.

How many busts in the 1st round vs. long-time starters have been drafted since 2008?

I'll give you a hint; the number will be significantly less.

[Bengalholic]

(01-03-2020, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You never saw it last year either.  No one did.

If I am wrong then post some preseason publication that predicted Burrow would be this good this year.

Admittedly I did not watch every LSU game last year.  I just remember that he struggled in the big ones he lost against Florida and Alabama.  

So, it seems we're focusing on 2 very different things brother. You seem to be hung up on purely surface stuff like ranking and projections. I'm more focused on what you see when you actually watch full games of Burrow last year...which include great plays, mistakes and everything in between. I didn't follow Burrow's play last year, so I went back and watched about 6-7 games to see if this year was a fluke or 'one hit wonder' as some have claimed, or whether you can see indications that the talent and potential was there, and just exploded in the right circumstances...better offensive system, players around him performing at a higher level, continued growth and development on his part, etc. It didn't take long before I came away thinking the latter. If I hadn't saw that, I would probably have more concern.

As far as where publications had him, I don't know what the actual importance of that is. We've seen other players not be highly ranked or projected the year before they become 1st round picks. We've also seen players be highly ranked for quite awhile and not end up living up to it. I don't know how that proves anything one way or another.

[*Synric*]

(01-03-2020, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You never saw it last year either.  No one did.

If I am wrong then post some preseason publication that predicted Burrow would be this good this year.

Admittedly I did not watch every LSU game last year.  I just remember that he struggled in the big ones he lost against Florida and Alabama.  

That's the issue you are judging him because he wasnt highly rated going into 2019....You are not talking about the prospect.

Joe Burrow has amazing Vision he sees the entire field even with pass rushers in his face or on the move.

He is very accurate at all 3 levels and its not just completion percentage. He understands ball placement putting the ball that allows only the receiver a chance at it or leading him for extra yards after catch.

He is very good underpressure. He can escape the pocket get yards with his feet or square up his shoulders and throw accurately on the run at all levels of the field. He also understands when he needs to stand in the pocket and take the hit to get the ball out on time. He is ice cold in the pocket never rattled.

He is very quick to diagnose post snap making quick reads. He can get the ball out quickly or he knows when to hold it to go for that deeper route. He is the best QB in College football going through his reads and finding the right guy instead of locking onto one target.

Joe Burrow is tough and a leader in the locker room. His whole team mentions they love him and he makes them strive to be better. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-03-2020, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You never saw it last year either.  No one did.

If I am wrong then post some preseason publication that predicted Burrow would be this good this year.

Admittedly I did not watch every LSU game last year.  I just remember that he struggled in the big ones he lost against Florida and Alabama.  

I did.

As Whitworth is my favourite player ever and he went to LSU (plus me not having any American affiliation...), they have become my defacto team since about 2010.

I saw a shit-ton of his potential last year and was hoping the Bengals would draft him in the 3rd/4th this year, to groom for the future (as Andy had 1 more year on his contract).

He's always been super accurate (that completion percentage isn't indicative), great touch on passes and super cerebral, plus his arm isn't terrible.

This year, he just exploded and upped his game x9000 and as such, he's now become the consensus pick.

He would be phenomenal here and he has upped his game in college; who's to say he won't do that in the pros?

[Fullrock]

(01-03-2020, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on this logic Dalton is a much better QB than Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, and a whole bunch of Hall of Famers.

Weak sauce.

Good lord, it's not that hard to understand. You said Burrow has only has one good season and that is why you think Bengals shouldn't draft him. I'm using YOUR DEEFINITION of a good season since you obviously don't consider Burrow's season last year to be good. You're the one who said it wasn't good, not me. So then using his numbers last year as a comparison, there are a lot of top current NFL QB's who had only 1 "good" season or even no "good" seasons by YOUR definition that have had HUGE success in the NFL. The fact that he had only one "good" season by your definition, which happened to be the best season by a QB in college football history, is not a reason to not draft him with the No. 1 pick.

Take your weak sauce somewhere else.

[MEBengalsFan]

Just read this article. It explains how Burrow went from a possible 5th rounder to being possibly the first pick in the 2020 draft.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/8/20954722/joe-burrow-lsu-quarterback-nfl-draft-stock-rising


If Joe and Justin both play in the senior bowl, the Bengals will be able to evaluate both players a bit more than other teams for the draft.

I'm in the Hebert camp. I'm just not sold on Burrow.

[*bfine32*]

(01-03-2020, 03:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He will drop in the draft because of his injury history and some team will see him as a "bargain".  Sound familiar?

Jaylon Smith?

[fredtoast]

(01-03-2020, 05:48 PM)Fullrock Wrote:  I'm using YOUR DEEFINITION of a good season since you obviously don't consider Burrow's season last year to be good. 

I never gave a definition.  All I keep pointing out is that last year he was the 12th rated QB in the 14 team SEC?

What other definition are you claiming I have used?

[depthchart]

.



Where a player like Burrow ends up playing is also a factor.
(Unlikely he could play for some of the Teams below but if he were the Franchise QB)


1. Burrow with the Patriots

2. Burrow with the Steelers

3. Burrow with the Bengals

4. Burrow with the Chiefs

5. Burrow with the Browns


I would suspect that we would see 5 different Joe Burrow's based on which of the 5 Organizations he ended up playing with.

It seems that the Browns have the worst QB track record and may ruin a Joe Burrow as compared to say how Burrow would perform as a Patriot.

Being a Bengal may put a certain ceiling on Burrow while playing for say Andy Reid he could maybe have a higher ceiling.

Did the Organization limit Dalton's ceiling ? Will they limit Burrow's ceiling ?

How well would Dalton do if he could take over for say Kirk Cousins in Minnesota for the next 5 years ?

Could Dalton win a Playoff game with the Vikings ?




.