Stop comparing Joe Burrow to Dalton

[Bengalholic]

Here's an interesting excerpt from a piece that Bruce Feldman did about Burrow and those who have played him:

[mikey6866]

(01-06-2020, 01:45 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Les Miles' fault.

After his 5th year there, things started to get VERY stagnant, yearly record notwithstanding.




Ok, there, Mr. Scout, whatever you say!

16-5 TD/INT ratio with 7 rushing TDs, perfect touch on passes and a great QB mind that can pick apart defenses?

I'd take that in a heartbeat (would mean Mixon is tearing it up as well).

Just wanted to quote this for future reference.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-06-2020, 02:19 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: Just wanted to quote this for future reference.

Go right ahead.

For ANY NFL QB to do *that* little, would mean the offense runs through the RB and that would mean we are so ahead each game, that we never throw the ball.

I'll take that all day.

[bengalguy71]

(01-02-2020, 02:08 PM)Au165 Wrote: ..There are people comparing Burrow to Dalton?

NO!  But there are folk who are saying, let's see if he gets drafted, then let's see if he doesn't get a season ending injury, and then let's see if MB does anything else BESIDE draft JB.   

BOTTOM LINE:  Not getting excited until it plays out, for crying out loud!!!

[Bengalfan4life27c]

I'm nervous about a college championship game Just don't want Burrow hurt

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-06-2020, 01:45 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Les Miles' fault.

After his 5th year there, things started to get VERY stagnant, yearly record notwithstanding.




Ok, there, Mr. Scout, whatever you say!

16-5 TD/INT ratio with 7 rushing TDs, perfect touch on passes and a great QB mind that can pick apart defenses?

I'd take that in a heartbeat (would mean Mixon is tearing it up as well).

Sounds about right and I agree. Would take this no problem.

[Nati#1]

I think Joe has a similar "touch" as Dalton on deep throws. I see LSU wr's make alot of plays on an underthrown ball. I don't like Burrows "touch" at times.

[mikey6866]

Lol we got several people already saying we want him to throw 16td and 5 picks and that would be awesome. Why would the bar be so low for a #1 overall pick. If thats the production were better doing almost anything else with the #1 pick. We can find a qb in the 4th round that can throw 16 td and 5 picks.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-07-2020, 12:19 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: Lol we got several people already saying we want him to throw 16td and 5 picks and that would be awesome. Why would the bar be so low for a #1 overall pick. If thats the production were better doing almost anything else with the #1 pick. We can find a qb in the 4th round that can throw 16 td and 5 picks.

Who’s saying that?

[mikey6866]

(01-06-2020, 01:45 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Les Miles' fault.

After his 5th year there, things started to get VERY stagnant, yearly record notwithstanding.




Ok, there, Mr. Scout, whatever you say!

16-5 TD/INT ratio with 7 rushing TDs, perfect touch on passes and a great QB mind that can pick apart defenses?

I'd take that in a heartbeat (would mean Mixon is tearing it up as well).

(01-06-2020, 09:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sounds about right and I agree. Would take this no problem.

(01-07-2020, 01:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who’s saying that?

uhh the posts are right in front of you.

[*Synric*]

(01-05-2020, 11:04 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: If tua declares tomorrow and we take joe burrow everybody is going to be laughing at us in 5 years as usual.  Joe burrow is going to look a lot more like 2018 burrow than 2019 burrow when he gets to the big leagues.

What about Burrow's play on the field says he isn't going to be a good pro?

[CJD]

I don't mind people comparing Burrow to Andy Dalton at all.

I think it gives you a really clear idea of what Burrow is as a QB.

For example, here are some comparisons between the two.
Joe:
Is vastly more accurate than Dalton.
Is incredibly more precise with his downfield throws than Dalton.
Is capable of fitting the ball into much tighter windows than Dalton (that throw to Boyd from Dalton. That is what Burrow does on every play).
Is much more aware of the pocket and when it breaks down than Dalton.
Is a bit more mobile in terms of rushing than Dalton, granted that has a lot to do with age.
Is significantly better at making decisions and going through progressions than Dalton.
Has about as strong of an arm as Dalton, perhaps a touch stronger.
Appears to be a better leader than Dalton.

See? Comparisons aren't always the death of happiness :).

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-07-2020, 10:54 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't mind people comparing Burrow to Andy Dalton at all.

I think it gives you a really clear idea of what Burrow is as a QB.

For example, here are some comparisons between the two.
Joe:
Is vastly more accurate than Dalton.
Is incredibly more precise with his downfield throws than Dalton.
Is capable of fitting the ball into much tighter windows than Dalton (that throw to Boyd from Dalton. That is what Burrow does on every play).
Is much more aware of the pocket and when it breaks down than Dalton.
Is a bit more mobile in terms of rushing than Dalton, granted that has a lot to do with age.
Is significantly better at making decisions and going through progressions than Dalton.
Has about as strong of an arm as Dalton, perhaps a touch stronger.
Appears to be a better leader than Dalton.

See? Comparisons aren't always the death of happiness :).

Andy Dalton has played in the NFL and understands what is to be expected as a pro. Burrow is not in the NFL and we don't know how he will react to the faster pace of the game as well as how he will perform against experience players and coaches that scheme specifically against his strengths. 

As for Burrow having such a good year let's take a look at why his stats are so good. He isn't the one making the catch; it's the receiver. He is the player responsible to get the ball to the receiver but the receiver has to make the catch. The reason he is so good is that during the off season the skilled players spent time together honing their craft and it has had a very positive impact for the team. Joe has become a star and his receivers improved with not dropping balls and making catches regularly.  

From what I read LSU receivers spent time catching thousands of balls, many were probably thrown by Burrow. When you spent so much time catching and passing to a specific group and when you are tossing thousands of balls to various receivers as a passer you should be able to improve the chemistry with the receiver as well as see an improvement in your accuracy. This is one major factor impacting Burrow and his ability on the field with his curren team. 

One great QB who has had a tough year is Tom Brady and the reason is he didn't form chemistry with his receivers this pass year and you could see it on the field and how it negatively impacted his play. Chemistry between receiver and QB matters and if you don't have it; no matter who you are as a player it won't help your overall performance. 

As for comparing Dalton to Burrow; many experts prior to the start of this pass college season had Burrow rated similar to Dalton when Dalton entered his senior season. Like Dalton, Burrow surpassed expectations. Both were good at the college level. Dalton has performed well as a pro and has taken his team into the post season 5 times. We don't know how Burrow will perform at this point it is all speculation given his college performance, but as we all should know from prior draft picks college production typically doesn't mean pro production. The reason for that is schemes, chemistry, etc.... 

Every year I see so many people who fall in love with this guy or that guy for a team and usually that player doesn't pan out simply because that player didn't face real competition at the college level or someone like Brady come in and over performs because he puts in the work, studies, etc.. because he has the work ethic to improve and become better. 

So many variables can impact a player. Injuries, your teammates, schemes, coaching, lack of experience, chemistry or lack thereof, etc...

I'll just wait and see how the Bengals FO decides to move forward with FA and the draft. 

[mikey6866]

(01-07-2020, 10:48 AM)Synric Wrote: What about Burrow's play on the field says he isn't going to be a good pro?

2018. That full season. Also that his arm strength is below average. He is not going to have his WR's win 75% of 50/50 balls at the NFL level. All these underthrown deep balls will no longer be completeions the will be breakups or INT's. He will not have WR wide open and have 10 seconds to review a defense anymore. You are gonna see 2018 Joe when he gets to NFL.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-07-2020, 11:28 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: 2018. That full season. Also that his arm strength is below average. He is not going to have his WR's win 75% of 50/50 balls at the NFL level. All these underthrown deep balls will no longer be completeions the will be breakups or INT's.

Did you actually watch him a lot that season or just going off the numbers?

His arm strength is absolutely not below average.

[mikey6866]

(01-07-2020, 11:34 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Did you actually watch him a lot that season or just going off the numbers?

His arm strength is absolutely not below average.

I have watched every single throw he has ever made at the collegiate level multiple times.  Have you?  You can disagree but his arm strength can be considerd average at best.  The day he enters the NFL he is in the bottom 10 in arm strength for starting qb's.

[*Synric*]

(01-07-2020, 11:28 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: 2018.  That full season.  Also that his arm strength is below average.  He is not going to have his WR's win 75% of 50/50 balls at the NFL level.  All these underthrown deep balls will no longer be completeions the will be breakups or INT's.  He will not have WR wide open and have 10 seconds to review a defense anymore.  You are gonna see 2018 Joe when he gets to NFL.

His arm is fine there are enough throws in 2019 to prove it. No matter who the QB is the WRs have to win...He is one of the most accurate passer in CFB history yet you say he consistently underthrown balls? No I think you are calling Back shoulders and high points underthrown but they arent. He is the second best QB in college football throwing into a tight window behind Trevor Lawrence and is the best QB underpressure. He is the best QB in CFB going through his reads he processes them quickly from a clean pocket and underpressure.

Also if you listen to anyone speak about his 2018 season you hear one word over and over. Efficient. Joe Burrow was a solid QB in an under center power run scheme.

[CJD]

(01-07-2020, 11:21 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Andy Dalton has played in the NFL and understands what is to be expected as a pro. Burrow is not in the NFL and we don't know how he will react to the faster pace of the game as well as how he will perform against experience players and coaches that scheme specifically against his strengths. 

As for Burrow having such a good year let's take a look at why his stats are so good. He isn't the one making the catch; it's the receiver. He is the player responsible to get the ball to the receiver but the receiver has to make the catch. The reason he is so good is that during the off season the skilled players spent time together honing their craft and it has had a very positive impact for the team. Joe has become a star and his receivers improved with not dropping balls and making catches regularly.  

From what I read LSU receivers spent time catching thousands of balls, many were probably thrown by Burrow. When you spent so much time catching and passing to a specific group and when you are tossing thousands of balls to various receivers as a passer you should be able to improve the chemistry with the receiver as well as see an improvement in your accuracy. This is one major factor impacting Burrow and his ability on the field with his curren team. 

One great QB who has had a tough year is Tom Brady and the reason is he didn't form chemistry with his receivers this pass year and you could see it on the field and how it negatively impacted his play. Chemistry between receiver and QB matters and if you don't have it; no matter who you are as a player it won't help your overall performance. 

As for comparing Dalton to Burrow; many experts prior to the start of this pass college season had Burrow rated similar to Dalton when Dalton entered his senior season. Like Dalton, Burrow surpassed expectations. Both were good at the college level. Dalton has performed well as a pro and has taken his team into the post season 5 times. We don't know how Burrow will perform at this point it is all speculation given his college performance, but as we all should know from prior draft picks college production typically doesn't mean pro production. The reason for that is schemes, chemistry, etc.... 

Every year I see so many people who fall in love with this guy or that guy for a team and usually that player doesn't pan out simply because that player didn't face real competition at the college level or someone like Brady come in and over performs because he puts in the work, studies, etc.. because he has the work ethic to improve and become better. 

So many variables can impact a player. Injuries, your teammates, schemes, coaching, lack of experience, chemistry or lack thereof, etc...

I'll just wait and see how the Bengals FO decides to move forward with FA and the draft. 

I don't disagree with anything that you said.

However, I think it's safe to say the bolded does not apply to Burrow, who ran an absolute gamut in this past year in terms of competitive teams.

And, as far as someone who puts in the work, studies, etc, I've read that Burrow is, in every conceivable way, that player. So that doesn't concern me either. 

As far as the receivers argument, there's no doubt that LSU has great receivers. But you have to wonder...

How did Jefferson go from a 54 rec/875 yd/8 TD WR in his sophomore year to a 102/1434/18 WR in his junior year?
How did Chase go from a 23/313/3 WR to 75/1559/18 WR in one year?
What about Moss going from 6/49/1 to 42/534/2?
Or Marshall Jr who went from 12/192/0 to 43/625/12?

Jefferson and Moss, in particular, were just 3 star recruits.
Chase was no push over, as a 4 star recruit, but it's not like any of these guys were projected to be stars in college necessarily.
Marshall Jr is the exception, as he was a top 10 recruit, but he wasn't the primary motor of this offense either.

And these players' increase in production isn't because there was someone ahead of them taking up most of the stats that graduated.
In 2018, Jefferson was LSU's leading receiver, with the next highest being TE Stephen Sullivan, with 375 yards.

The 2018 LSU offense, with virtually the same receivers, was significantly less prolific than it was this year.

Burrow was obviously in his first year starting last year and he was serviceable, but not great. His QB rating in 2018 was 133.2. Right between where Jacob Eason and Jordan Love are this year (143.2 and 129.1, respectively).

He elevated his receivers' play just as much as they elevated his. 

Like you said, chemistry. Work. Study. Effort.

These are all things Burrow and his receivers displayed between 2018 and 2019.

I have no doubt that Burrow will only continue in his pursuit of greatness in the NFL with the Bengals next year.

[mikey6866]

(01-07-2020, 11:40 AM)Synric Wrote: His arm is fine there are enough throws in 2019 to prove it. No matter who the QB is the WRs have to win...He is one of the most accurate passer in CFB history yet you say he consistently underthrown balls? No I think you are calling Back shoulders and high points underthrown but they arent. He is the second best QB in college football throwing into a tight window behind Trevor Lawrence and is the best QB underpressure. He is the best QB in CFB going through his reads he processes them quickly from a clean pocket and underpressure.

Also if you listen to anyone speak about his 2018 season you hear one word over and over. Efficient. Joe Burrow was a solid QB in an under center power run scheme.

I actually agree you dont need a howitzer to be a great NFL qb.  Tua does not have a howitzer either, but his arm strength is more than adequate, where as Burrow is basically near the minimum you would want. When I watch Burrow it looks like a highlight film for his playmakers not Burrow.  He has thrown plenty of dimes this year to get excited about, but there are a ton of throws where im like wow he really got away with one there.  Those throws are completed for huge plays right now and they simply wont be at the NFL level.  I love Burrows pocket presence and the way he can keep plays alive.  He has been amazing at that this year, its just unsustainable.  We see this every year with a QB playing at a much higher level, they all level off.  Burrow is going to level off in a big way all the writing is on the wall.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-07-2020, 11:58 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: I actually agree you dont need a howitzer to be a great NFL qb.  Tua does not have a howitzer either, but his arm strength is more than adequate, where as Burrow is basically near the minimum you would want. When I watch Burrow it looks like a highlight film for his playmakers not Burrow.  He has thrown plenty of dimes this year to get excited about, but there are a ton of throws where im like wow he really got away with one there.  Those throws are completed for huge plays right now and they simply wont be at the NFL level.  I love Burrows pocket presence and the way he can keep plays alive.  He has been amazing at that this year, its just unsustainable.  We see this every year with a QB playing at a much higher level, they all level off.  Burrow is going to level off in a big way all the writing is on the wall.

So who you taking at #1? No trades, assume we don’t get good enough offers. You going Young when DL is literally one of the only strengths of our team. If you do who’s our future QB? Please don’t say Lawrence the odds of ending up with back-to-back 1st overall picks are very low.