Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[Bengalholic]

(01-04-2020, 02:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Again, like I said in the post, the numbers very well improve. The talent, coaching, production may all improve.

I'm strictly speaking of the QB position. One QB vs. the other.

My take is that a veteran Andy is greater or equal to that of a rookie Joe Burrow. It's that simple.

If you really want to use your numbers, using the offense and everything around thus years team, then you have to insert Joe Burrow into that scenario.

Joe Burrow 2020 on the 2019 team. Same everything. Behind that bs line, with bs playcalling, a a sub 3.0 ypc running game for 75% of Andy's stats. No Green, etc.

Apparently you are of the believe we would have won more this year with Burrow. I am not.

To each their own...

Maybe I'm a little slow this afternoon, but I thought the OP was focusing on 2020. Now, we seem to be talking about 2019? 

[phil413]

(01-04-2020, 02:52 PM)Benton Wrote: Top five QBs generally go to really bad teams that hope throwing a QB onto the field will make them a good team.

We've got several good pieces on offense. If we can find a linebacker and either a dl-man or safety upgrade, were leaps and bounds over next year.

Andy or burrow will likely do better in 2020 just because the team is going to be better with guys developing and our last year first rounder coming back.

Yeah, its deeper than Dalton > rookie Burrow, its a question of Cincy making the right moves.  

[GreenCornBengal]

The best comaparison for Burrow from a purely situational standpoint is Cam Newton.

Both guys transferred their senior years and were one year wonder national champtionship QBs

Cam didn't instantly turn the Panthers around, but he did eventually get the to the SuperBowl.

I believe this is what Mantooth is getting at... this stuff takes time.

[N_B]

I like Wes’ posts generally, but I think with the goal post moving, this one got away from him...

[Luvnit2]

Same ones saying Burrow will solve all our problems in 2020 were saying no way ZT loses more games than ML the previous year.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001094208/article/cowboys-interview-mike-mccarthy-marvin-lewis
They also said ML would never coach again.

Seriously, it is a lot of same posters.

[N_B]

(01-04-2020, 04:14 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Same ones saying Burrow will solve all our problems in 2020 were saying no way ZT loses more games than ML the previous year.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001094208/article/cowboys-interview-mike-mccarthy-marvin-lewis
They also said ML would never coach again.

Seriously, it is a lot of same posters.

I haven’t seen one post saying Burrow will solve everything

[Fullrock]

(01-04-2020, 03:53 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The best comaparison for Burrow from a purely situational standpoint is Cam Newton.

Both guys transferred their senior years and were one year wonder national champtionship QBs

Cam didn't instantly turn the Panthers around, but he did eventually get the to the SuperBowl.

I believe this is what Mantooth is getting at... this stuff takes time.

I don't think I have seen anyone saying Burrow will come in and magically lead the Bengals to the playoffs next year after a 2 win season. Of course it takes time to get used to the speed of the NFL game. That said, you can watch Burrow play and see the traits he has that Dalton lacks. The ability to slide in the pocket to avoid pressure, the ability to make plays on the run when things break down instead of looking to throw the ball out of bounds, elite ball placement on throws down the field, rarely misses a receiver in stride.

Now, those are all things Burrow is showing in the college game, and whether it translates to the speed of the NFL game remains to be seen, BUT there is no reason to think at this point that it won't.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Dalton's QB rating was 78.3 this year which was 39th in the league. His adjusted QBR was 39.8 which was 28 out of 30 QB's rated. I'd say there is no where to go but up next year.

Enough with the facts already. At least Dalton has great pre game speeches. Nevermind At Least Dalton lead the Bengals to 2 wins this year. This guy is way to difficult to replace.

[Murdock2420]

(01-04-2020, 04:25 PM)N_B Wrote: I haven’t seen one post saying Burrow will solve everything

Oh... it's Burrow with Jonah back and Green back and the way the D played the 2nd half and the O line blocked. 

Joe Burrow is Mike Brown's wet dream come true. He drafts him, and doesn't have to do anything else. And all the Joe Burrow fan boys will fill the stadium with hope as we win 3 or 4 games.

[*Synric*]

(01-04-2020, 04:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Oh... it's Burrow with Jonah back and Green back and the way the D played the 2nd half and the O line blocked. 

Joe Burrow is Mike Brown's wet dream come true. He drafts him, and doesn't have to do anything else. And all the Joe Burrow fan boys will fill the stadium with hope as we win 3 or 4 games.

No one is saying that at all.... Us Burrow "fanboys" believe it's best to try for a franchise QB when we have the chance and then build around him.

[Murdock2420]

(01-04-2020, 05:00 PM)Synric Wrote: No one is saying that at all.... Us Burrow "fanboys" believe it's best to try for a franchise QB when we have the chance and then build around him.

Yet yourself and many other posters talk about how adding just Joe Burrow and the record in one score games and how Joe wins those games and blah blah blah...

Mike Brown is smiling from ear to ear. He drafts the one year wonder local kid and doesn't have to do anything else. 

[CincyKid]

Paul's son will draft Burrow and resign AJ...……..all will be right in his little world

[*Synric*]

(01-04-2020, 05:07 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Yet yourself and many other posters talk about how adding just Joe Burrow and the record in one score games and how Joe wins those games and blah blah blah...

Mike Brown is smiling from ear to ear. He drafts the one year wonder local kid and doesn't have to do anything else. 

I have never brought up the 2019 season when talking about Joe Burrow not once and I definitely don't consider the one score games close because they weren't.  I have not said anything about Joe Burrow winning more games than Dalton.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-04-2020, 04:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Oh... it's Burrow with Jonah back and Green back and the way the D played the 2nd half and the O line blocked. 

Joe Burrow is Mike Brown's wet dream come true. He drafts him, and doesn't have to do anything else. And all the Joe Burrow fan boys will fill the stadium with hope as we win 3 or 4 games.

You realize at the end of the day this stuff is entertainment, right? Are we really going to mock people about filling up the stadium and being excited about a new QB?

I for one, haven’t been this excited about the Bengals in years.

[Bengalholic]

(01-04-2020, 05:07 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Yet yourself and many other posters talk about how adding just Joe Burrow and the record in one score games and how Joe wins those games and blah blah blah...

Mike Brown is smiling from ear to ear. He drafts the one year wonder local kid and doesn't have to do anything else. 

I've seen a handful of posters lately saying that a lot of people think 'all you have to do is draft Burrow and everything is magically fixed' - yet I see no one saying that at all. I do see them saying that they think Burrow will be an upgrade, or that drafting Burrow will give us a solid centerpiece to build around, or things of that nature...but I haven't really see anyone saying that a lot of other work doesn't need to be done as well. Maybe I'm missing those posts, but I honestly haven't seen anyone spreading that narrative.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-04-2020, 05:58 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I've seen a handful of posters lately saying that a lot of people think 'all you have to do is draft Burrow and everything is magically fixed' - yet I see no one saying that at all. I do see them saying that they think Burrow will be an upgrade, or that drafting Burrow will give us a solid centerpiece to build around, or things of that nature...but I haven't really see anyone saying that a lot of other work doesn't need to be done as well. Maybe I'm missing those posts, but I honestly haven't seen anyone spreading that narrative.

Literally no one has been saying that. It’s like if people repeat something enough times it becomes accepted as truth...

[CJD]

I know that Dalton wants to be traded or released. It'll be interesting to see if the Bengals really do it.

If they do, does that mean our starter will be either Burrow or Finley? Because, if so, then Burrow will likely start from week 1.

I kind of hope they don't get rid of Dalton. Let him start the season. Maybe the first 6 to 8 games, or until the bye week. And then, if he's deemed ready, start Burrow from that point.

Then we can really see if Burrow as a rookie is better than Dalton as a veteran.

It's hard to say either Burrow would be definitively better than Dalton because, as we know, there are two distinct Andys in that body. There's good Andy and bad Andy.

I think Burrow EASILY beats bad Andy. How he stacks up to good Andy as a rookie will be an interesting sight to see. I think Good Andy probably has a minor edge, but Burrow will likely eclipse even Good Andy by year 2.

Overall, I expect improvement from the QB position in 2020 for the simple fact that, if Bad Andy remains, Burrow is clearly better than him. And if Good Andy is prevalent, then we get more than 2 games of Good Andy, which is basically all we got this season.

[N_B]

(01-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I know that Dalton wants to be traded or released. It'll be interesting to see if the Bengals really do it.

If they do, does that mean our starter will be either Burrow or Finley? Because, if so, then Burrow will likely start from week 1.

I kind of hope they don't get rid of Dalton. Let him start the season. Maybe the first 6 to 8 games, or until the bye week. And then, if he's deemed ready, start Burrow from that point.

Then we can really see if Burrow as a rookie is better than Dalton as a veteran.

It's hard to say either Burrow would be definitively better than Dalton because, as we know, there are two distinct Andys in that body. There's good Andy and bad Andy.

I think Burrow EASILY beats bad Andy. How he stacks up to good Andy as a rookie will be an interesting sight to see. I think Good Andy probably has a minor edge, but Burrow will likely eclipse even Good Andy by year 2.

Overall, I expect improvement from the QB position in 2020 for the simple fact that, if Bad Andy remains, Burrow is clearly better than him. And if Good Andy is prevalent, then we get more than 2 games of Good Andy, which is basically all we got this season.

Dalton is as good as gone. You don’t pay a backup 17$m when you have a better QB on a rookie deal...the latter is football salary cap nirvana

[Hammerstripes]

Given Dalton's performance this year, I would bet money on a couple of things:

1. Burrow throws more TDs
2. Burrow throws fewer interceptions
3. Burrow throws for more yards
4. Burrow leads the team to more wins
5. Burrow has a higher rating

Than a combined Dalton/Finley

[Essex Johnson]

(01-04-2020, 02:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just some food for thought....

Andrew Luck is the ONLY rookie QB in the last 20 years to join a last place and finish .500 in his first season.

His completion % was 54.  He threw 24 TDs vs 18 picks. His rating was 76.5.

Here are his ranks among starters...

Rating - 26th
Comp % - 31st
Yards - 7th (5th most attempts)
TDs - 14th
Int - 30th


The only guy to do it, one of the best prospects to come ouf this decade, and those are his numbers... He was average at best.

On the flip side since 2002 realignment of divisions, there has only been 3 years that a team DID NOT go from Last to First in Division the next year...