Overated starter/Underated starter

[Bengalitis]

Gio deserves to retire a bengal, gets knocked out by Ryan Shazier, who gets a thrill of doing so. FastForward to next season, tries to take out Gio and gets almost paralyzed and retired permanently from football instead. WHODEY!

Give Gio a bonus on my behalf just for that.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-02-2020, 06:39 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: Gio deserves to retire a bengal, gets knocked out by Ryan Shazier, who gets a thrill of doing so. FastForward to next season, tries to take out Gio and  gets almost paralyzed and retired permanently from football instead.  WHODEY!

Give Gio a bonus on my behalf just for that.

Grudges and sentiment are one thing, but production numbers and perceived value are another.  I'll always have a warm spot in my heart for Gio Bernard, but perhaps it's time to find a cheaper 3rd down, pass blocking back?

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 05:48 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The team went back to the scheme of 2018. The scheme change at the start of the season was on the coaching staff - their blunder. Going back made the running game better. But even in the 2nd half of the season Hart had a 42 run blocking grade. That's below B.Price (62.2), F.Johnson (57.8), M.Jordan (50.7) and T.Hopkins (47.5). You'd think that a RT should have a good run blocking grade.

Maybe I am underrating Hart. We'll find out.

 

I don't put much weight on PFF grades.  They said Dalton had a better year in 2018 than 2015.  The college O-lineman that they graded number one ion BOTH pas and run blocking did not get drafted until the third round.

You look at those numbers for our o-line and there is no way in hell we would be 8th in the league in rushing and 13th in average per carry.

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 04:21 PM)Synric Wrote: Bobby Hart gave up just as many pressures in 2019 as he did in 2018

In 85 more pass plays.

That is a big improvement.

Where did you find those numbers?

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 02:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Underrated by the Media: Tyler Boyd
Every time they mention the weapons Joe Burrow will have at his disposal, Boyd is either at the end of the list or not included at all.
Boyd is very similar to Justin Jefferson, Burrow's favorite target in college, and Boyd will be Burrow's favorite safety valve and first down maker. He should be at the front of that list, not the end (or not on it).

Rep.

He is money on third down.

[Destro]

(05-02-2020, 02:34 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Overrated:  Gio Bernard.  I love the guy but he hasn't seemed to be the same player since that concussion.

Bengals/Steelers games changes people. Antonio Brown the most famous of those.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-02-2020, 08:25 PM)Destro Wrote: Bengals/Steelers games changes people. Antonio Brown the most famous of those.

Honestly, it's been going on for much longer than just the stuff that many current Bengal fans can remember. Keith Gary helicopter spun Ken Anderson around, a long time ago.  It's been a bitter, dirty, hard hitting rivalry since even before then.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I was going to go with the same answers I gave last time we had one of these threads and name Gio as the overrated, but Fred makes a good point, in that nobody really talks Gio up much anymore. If anything, he gets lot of flak since he got paid. I still think he’s one of the most overrated Bengals in recent history though. I can’t really think of anyone who’s clearly overrated atm tbh.

As for underrated? Dunlap. Leads the franchise in sacks (81.5). Has a ton of PD over the years, too (58). Geno has always gotten all the attention at the National level, but Carlos has been a force for us just as long.

Whoever said Boyd that was a good choice, too. I feel like nobody outside Bengals fans talk about the guy. He’s better than some team’s #1’s, imo.

[*Synric*]

(05-02-2020, 07:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 85 more pass plays.

That is a big improvement.

Where did you find those numbers?

PFF.

Yes Bobby Hart was better in 2019 than 2018... but he was not good. 

You are basing you're entire argument off two base stats sacks and penalties. They do not show how well an offensive linemen fully performed during a season.

[Bengalitis]

(05-02-2020, 06:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Grudges and sentiment are one thing, but production numbers and perceived value are another.  I'll always have a warm spot in my heart for Gio Bernard, but perhaps it's time to find a cheaper 3rd down, pass blocking back?

$5 million was unexpected and a bad contract for sure... another off season nightmare last year. Once they gave Hart that big signing,  our fate was sealed. 2-14 was no accident.

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 11:50 PM)Synric Wrote: PFF.

Yes Bobby Hart was better in 2019 than 2018... but he was not good. 

You are basing you're entire argument off two base stats sacks and penalties. They do not show how well an offensive linemen fully performed during a season.

2 stats are better than "because I say so".

Where does Hart rank among OTs in pressures per snap?

[*Synric*]

(05-03-2020, 02:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 2 stats are better than "because I say so".

Where does Hart rank among OTs in pressures per snap?

Fred. 

He grades out with a 57 PFF raiting that is run blocking and pass blocking.

Your argument is sacks and penalties only but you have to join the the rest of the football community. 

PFF is per snap analysis graded by former coaches and players. Is it perfect no but better than trying to cherry pick stats.

Bobby Hart is not a good right tackle. In fact if he was the Bengals wouldnt mention Fred Johnson at all in a tackle competition... but they are.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 02:49 AM)Synric Wrote: PFF is per snap analysis graded by former coaches and players. Is it perfect no but better than trying to cherry pick stats.

Former high school coaches and players.

PFF rankings are a joke.  They said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015.   Last years fifth highest rated OT accoring to PFF can't get a job with an NFL team.  PFF's highest rated OT in college last year in BOTH run and pass blocking did not get drafted until the third round.

(05-03-2020, 02:49 AM)Synric Wrote: Bobby Hart is not a good right tackle. In fact if he was the Bengals wouldnt mention Fred Johnson at all in a tackle competition... but they are.

Only way Johnson starts at RT is if Hart is a better fit at RG.  No way Johnson starts with Hart on the bench.

[*Synric*]

(05-03-2020, 03:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Former high school coaches and players.

PFF rankings are a joke.  They said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015.   Last years fifth highest rated OT accoring to PFF can't get a job with an NFL team.  PFF's highest rated OT in college last year in BOTH run and pass blocking did not get drafted until the third round.



Only way Johnson starts at RT is if Hart is a better fit at RG.  No way Johnson starts with Hart on the bench.

You realize every sports media outlet quotes Mike Mayocks PFF? He has publicly stated they have former professional coaches and players watching play by play tape.

But I'm done continue with the Bobby Hart is good take just makes everything post less believable.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 03:14 AM)Synric Wrote: You realize every sports media outlet quotes Mike Mayocks PFF? 

No I do not realize that.

I watch a lot of sports news and I don't hear many of them spewing PFF ratings.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-02-2020, 03:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: My main concern with him is that I don't expect Lou Anarumo to be able to get more (or really even the same) out of a player than Mike Zimmer has.

It seems like when you sign a guy who has been really well coached, you're buying them at likely their peak. If you can't provide an equally good coach, that peak will begin to drop.

I wish people would pay more attention to schemes. Waynes was not so good in Minnesota's zone heavy defense. He's better in man.. which is what we play more of. 

XSF also fits our OL better than the 2 other guards we cut. Silly to have 3 zone guys and 2 power guys that aren't versatile playing together. 2-3 will usually always be out of sync and we saw that alot last year until they finally figured everyone out.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 04:45 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I wish people would pay more attention to schemes. Waynes was not so good in Minnesota's zone heavy defense. He's better in man.. which is what we play more of. 

A DB may be good in zone coverage but isn't physical enough to play press man.

But any DB who can play man should be able to play zone just as well.  It does not require any different ability or skill set..

[*Synric*]

(05-03-2020, 04:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No I do not realize that.

I watch a lot of sports news and I don't hear many of them spewing PFF ratings.

You're right no other source mentions PFF...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/28476048/the-highest-graded-nfl-players-rookies-surprises-every-position-2019-season

Bobby Hart 57 PFF grade. Below average. 

[Sled21]

(05-02-2020, 03:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: My main concern with him is that I don't expect Lou Anarumo to be able to get more (or really even the same) out of a player than Mike Zimmer has.

It seems like when you sign a guy who has been really well coached, you're buying them at likely their peak. If you can't provide an equally good coach, that peak will begin to drop.

Yes, but what is telling to me is that Zimmer really wanted to keep him.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2020, 03:14 AM)Synric Wrote: You realize every sports media outlet quotes Mike Mayocks PFF? 

(05-03-2020, 05:50 AM)Synric Wrote: You're right no other source mentions PFF...

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/28476048/the-highest-graded-nfl-players-rookies-surprises-every-position-2019-season

I think you need tolook up the definition of "every".


BTW got any links to ESPN arguing that Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015 just because PFF says so?