Overated starter/Underated starter

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-03-2020, 01:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you need tolook up the definition of "every".


BTW got any links to ESPN arguing that Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015 just because PFF says so?

Fred no matter how you spin it Hart is very, very average at best and that's just being nice. And after 5 seasons and 65 games he's likely not getting much better ! He's right on the very edge of false starting like 3 plays out of 5, I'm not sure how he's gotten away with several of them ?

The only reason there's any slight bit of optimism for him is he's still fairly young. It's not gonna take a whole lot to find an upgrade, he's way more of a backup than starter.

[J24]

Underrated- Carlos Dunlap- Every year there is some knuckle head poster that makes a post about how he has underachieved or their mad at him because he didn't lead the league in Sacks the year before. The Guy brings it every game and he does it in all facets. Run Defense, rushing the Passer, and batting Balls down at the line of scrimmage. When you consider then top Defensive Ends from this era he should be on the list.

Overrated- Sam Hubbard- I like Hubbard as an overall player he is good at a lot of stuff but is he great at any particular thing? He is good player but I don't think he is a superstar player like many believe.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-02-2020, 06:39 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: Gio deserves to retire a bengal, gets knocked out by Ryan Shazier, who gets a thrill of doing so. FastForward to next season, tries to take out Gio and  gets almost paralyzed and retired permanently from football instead.  WHODEY!

Give Gio a bonus on my behalf just for that.

I think that hit was on a TE, not Gio...the one that actually hurt Shazier for leading with his head....again.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2020, 02:09 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think that hit was on a TE, not Gio...the one that actually hurt Shazier for leading with his head....again.  

You’re correct. It was Tyler Kroft.

[jmccracky]

(05-03-2020, 02:05 PM)J24 Wrote: Underrated- Carlos Dunlap- Every year there is some knuckle head poster that makes a post about how he has underachieved or their mad at him because he didn't lead the league in Sacks the year before. The Guy brings it every game and he does it in all facets. Run Defense, rushing the Passer, and batting Balls down at the line of scrimmage.  When you consider then top Defensive Ends from this era he should be on the list.

Overrated- Sam Hubbard- I like Hubbard as an overall player he is good at a lot of stuff but is he great at any particular thing? He is good player but I don't think he is a superstar player like many believe.

Hubbard? I dont know about that man. 76 tackles, 8.5 sacks, and 13 QB hits is pretty dang good. He keeps improving. I guess we shall see! 

[J24]

(05-03-2020, 03:27 PM)jmccracky Wrote: Hubbard? I dont know about that man. 76 tackles, 8.5 sacks, and 13 QB hits is pretty dang good. He keeps improving. I guess we shall see! 

No doubt he's good but I question whether he will be elite. To me he is Michael Johnson.

[jmccracky]

(05-03-2020, 06:53 PM)J24 Wrote: No doubt he's good but I question whether he will be elite. To me he is Michael Johnson.

Ok, I gotcha. I just hope Hubbard keeps improving. His motor does not stop. That's what I like about him. What impressed me about him is not the plays in which he got a tackle or sack. We are spoiled though. Watching Geno and Dunlap all these years has been a treat! 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-03-2020, 06:53 PM)J24 Wrote: No doubt he's good but I question whether he will be elite. To me he is Michael Johnson.

Michael Johnson was pretty underrated here tbh. I think Hubbard has a higher ceiling than that though.

[*jason*]

(05-03-2020, 06:53 PM)J24 Wrote: No doubt he's good but I question whether he will be elite. To me he is Michael Johnson.

Michael Johnson was really damn good in his first stint in Cincinnati... I agree that Hubbard may never be top 5 at his position, but he's pretty good, and showed improvement... He gets no national attention (much like Dunlap... Who is one of the best at his position), so that makes him underrated.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-03-2020, 04:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: A DB may be good in zone coverage but isn't physical enough to play press man.

But any DB who can play man should be able to play zone just as well.  It does not require any different ability or skill set..

Sorry but we are talking about Trae not dbs in general. Trae has proven he's physical enough for man and doesn't miss his tackles like Dre.

And they are completely different concepts. 

I can cover my man and stick with him. However if I am responsible for a zone. And then multiple people enter my zone I have to play one or try to play both and rely on the guy who is responsible for the next zone that they enter. 

Zone requires much more quick mental processing than 1 guy sticking with his assignment and if 1 guy screws up in Zone it can mess the whole defense up and leave a guy wide open. Where as on Man, you still have a safety over the top to help. 

Gee I understand PFF isn't perfect, but I'd trust their analysis waaaay before I would yours. 

[KillerGoose]

(05-03-2020, 02:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re correct. It was Tyler Kroft.

Unless I am misunderstanding, the hit that paralyzed Shazier was on Josh Malone, not Kroft. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF728aHFA98

[KillerGoose]

Overrated - William Jackson. I am hoping this is only temporary and I eat crow, but he certainly hasn't lived up to the hype he generated in his rookie season. I am hoping an extra year of stability at DC will bring the best out of him, but he hasn't been as productive as we all had hoped.

Underrated - Hubbard. He is developing quite nicely and is becoming a valuable asset off of the edge. The defensive line is the strongest group of the team and it is because of guys like him, who are able to provide great depth.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 06:40 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Unless I am misunderstanding, the hit that paralyzed Shazier was on Josh Malone, not Kroft. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF728aHFA98

I thought it was Kroft, and when I googled it to confirm this came up...

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/12/4/16736454/ryan-shazier-scary-back-injury-vs-bengals-steelers-2017

Wtf

[Wes Mantooth]

Underated - Tyler Boyd

I think Boyd is the best #2 we've had since TJ.

He produced 1,028 yards in 2018 in only 14 games. This in a season where AJ Green missed half the season, and Andy Dalton missed the final 5 games, leaving Jeff Driskel at the helm. This in a season where Bill Lazor was the OC. This is a season where the 3rd best receiver, produced only 210 yards.

In 2019, well we all know how that went. On the worst team in the league, with no legitimate outside threat to pull coverage and attention away, he still put up 1,046 yards. This in an offense that was sub 3.0 YPC for the first 10 games. This is an offsense where Andy was at his absolute worst, and featured a player in Ryan Finley, who has no business on an NFL field, manning the ship for 3 games.

I feel like if you insert this guy into a high powered, properly called offensive scheme, that he could be among the games best "#2" receivers. He's extremely versatile, and has continued to improve since he's been here.

Overated - Carlos Dunlap

This was an extremely easy pick for me. I couldn't have typed it quick enough.

Now, let me say this first: I do think Dunlap is a quality DE, and I do think (at times) he's very good. He's also more than adequate in the run game, which is an often overlooked attribute at the position. I am NOT at all saying he's terrible.

My biggest gripe with him is the fact he disappears for games at a time. And this isn't a new issue either. Maybe, I'm in the minority here, but it's clear to me he's a guy that takes plays, and even games off. For way too long of stretches. The first half of the last year he was nowhere to be found. Yet in typical Dunlap fashion, he has a couple monster games to pad his stats, so they don't look so poor, and to remind people he can play.

Depsite this, it seems most of our fans absolutely love the guy. To each their own, but I've never thought he's been worth near what he's been paid.

At the time of his contracts he usually been paid top 10 money. Even now, I believe he's still like #15 in salary years removed from an older contract.

Did you know he's only hit double digit sacks once in his career? Once. 10 sacks being the threshold. Not 15 or 20. 10. He's only done it a single time in TEN YEARS. He's averaged only 8 sacks a season, despite seeing immediate PT and never missing significant time.

How many DE's get pad elite money with single digit sacks? A.) Not many. How many DE's continue to get paid elite money, and keep getting extensions, despite averaging 8 sacks? A.) Not many/None

Dunlap is a good player, who is often paid like a great player. Dunlap can be great when he wants to. The problem is, for wahatever, reasons he goes into multi-game stretches where he's a non-factor.

I like him as a player, but don't love the price. And I don't understand the universal love here either. If I were to say perhaps we should move on a trade a 31 year old who averages 8 sacks many here would have a conniption fit.

That's why he's an easy choice for me here. (Please, don't kill me)

[SErebel11]

(05-04-2020, 07:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Overated - Carlos Dunlap

This was an extremely easy pick for me.  I couldn't have typed it quick enough.

Now, let me say this first:  I do think Dunlap is a quality DE, and I do think (at times) he's very good.  He's also more than adequate in the run game, which is an often overlooked attribute at the position.  I am NOT at all saying he's terrible.

My biggest gripe with him is the fact he disappears for games at a time.  And this isn't a new issue either.  Maybe, I'm in the minority here, but it's clear to me he's a guy that takes plays, and even games off.  For way too long of stretches.  The first half of the last year he was nowhere to be found.  Yet in typical Dunlap fashion, he has a couple monster games to pad his stats, so they don't look so poor, and to remind people he can play.

Depsite this, it seems most of our fans absolutely love the guy.  To each their own, but I've never thought he's been worth near what he's been paid.

At the time of his contracts he usually been paid top 10 money.  Even now, I believe he's still like #15 in salary years removed from an older contract.

Did you know he's only hit double digit sacks once in his career?  Once.  10 sacks being the threshold.  Not 15 or 20. 10.  He's only done it a single time in TEN YEARS.  He's averaged only 8 sacks a season, despite seeing immediate PT and never missing significant time.

How many DE's get pad elite money with single digit sacks?  A.) Not many.  How many DE's continue to get paid elite money, and keep getting extensions, despite averaging 8 sacks? A.) Not many/None

Dunlap is a good player, who is often paid like a great player.  Dunlap can be great when he wants to.  The problem is, for wahatever, reasons he goes into multi-game stretches where he's a non-factor.

I like him as a player, but don't love the price.  And I don't understand the universal love here either.  If I were to say perhaps we should move on a trade a  31 year old who averages 8 sacks many here would have a conniption fit.

That's why he's an easy choice for me here. (Please, don't kill me)  

I think sacks has it's place but it's an odd way to define an entire edge player.
Dunlap was the number 3 overall edge player against the run last season with a grade of 89. In fact, he was 4th overall edge in grade on pff. Dunlap's extremely good against the run. Furthermore, he has batted down a whopping 38 passes in the last 4 seasons. Now for me, all sacks are not the same. Some are coverage sacks, some are the other guy causes the pressure and the QB ends up sliding to a blocked guy and getting sacked, bad snaps can cause sacks, some kind of mixup in the offense can cause a sack (blown assignment, center trips the QB under center, HB goes the wrong way on a run play, etc etc). Some sacks are 1-2 yard losses. So I guess my thought on this is that 38 batted passes is worth around a half a sack each maybe more. If it's 3rd and 5 and he knocks down a quick slant then that is really the same outcome as a sack. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 07:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Underated - Tyler Boyd

I think Boyd is the best #2 we've had since TJ.

He produced 1,028 yards in 2018 in only 14 games. This in a season where AJ Green missed half the season, and Andy Dalton missed the final 5 games, leaving Jeff Driskel at the helm. This in a season where Bill Lazor was the OC. This is a season where the 3rd best receiver, produced only 210 yards.

In 2019, well we all know how that went. On the worst team in the league, with no legitimate outside threat to pull coverage and attention away, he still put up 1,046 yards. This in an offense that was sub 3.0 YPC for the first 10 games. This is an offsense where Andy was at his absolute worst, and featured a player in Ryan Finley, who has no business on an NFL field, manning the ship for 3 games.

I feel like if you insert this guy into a high powered, properly called offensive scheme, that he could be among the games best "#2" receivers. He's extremely versatile, and has continued to improve since he's been here.

Overated - Carlos Dunlap

This was an extremely easy pick for me. I couldn't have typed it quick enough.

Now, let me say this first: I do think Dunlap is a quality DE, and I do think (at times) he's very good. He's also more than adequate in the run game, which is an often overlooked attribute at the position. I am NOT at all saying he's terrible.

My biggest gripe with him is the fact he disappears for games at a time. And this isn't a new issue either. Maybe, I'm in the minority here, but it's clear to me he's a guy that takes plays, and even games off. For way too long of stretches. The first half of the last year he was nowhere to be found. Yet in typical Dunlap fashion, he has a couple monster games to pad his stats, so they don't look so poor, and to remind people he can play.

Depsite this, it seems most of our fans absolutely love the guy. To each their own, but I've never thought he's been worth near what he's been paid.

At the time of his contracts he usually been paid top 10 money. Even now, I believe he's still like #15 in salary years removed from an older contract.

Did you know he's only hit double digit sacks once in his career? Once. 10 sacks being the threshold. Not 15 or 20. 10. He's only done it a single time in TEN YEARS. He's averaged only 8 sacks a season, despite seeing immediate PT and never missing significant time.

How many DE's get pad elite money with single digit sacks? A.) Not many. How many DE's continue to get paid elite money, and keep getting extensions, despite averaging 8 sacks? A.) Not many/None

Dunlap is a good player, who is often paid like a great player. Dunlap can be great when he wants to. The problem is, for wahatever, reasons he goes into multi-game stretches where he's a non-factor.

I like him as a player, but don't love the price. And I don't understand the universal love here either. If I were to say perhaps we should move on a trade a 31 year old who averages 8 sacks many here would have a conniption fit.

That's why he's an easy choice for me here. (Please, don't kill me)

I’d probably agree with Boyd being our best #2 since TJ. But tbf, Marvin Jones never had the opportunity to fill in as a #1 without AJ on the field for an entire season. He would have easily put up 1k+ yds like Boyd did. Boyd is extremely clutch though, and probably one of the best in the league on 3rd down. Teams know it’s going to him and they still can’t stop him.

I obviously completely disagree wrt Dunlap. Sacks are not everything. Just look at how many passes he’s defended, and everything else he does to be disruptive over the years. As far as “taking plays/games off” like last year, he wasn’t fully healthy until the end of the season.

[impactplaya]

(05-04-2020, 07:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Underated - Tyler Boyd

I think Boyd is the best #2 we've had since TJ.  

He produced 1,028 yards in 2018 in only 14 games.  This in a season where AJ Green missed half the season, and Andy Dalton missed the final 5 games, leaving Jeff Driskel at the helm.  This in a season where Bill Lazor was the OC.  This is a season where the 3rd best receiver, produced only 210 yards.

In 2019, well we all know how that went. On the worst team in the league, with no legitimate outside threat to pull coverage and attention away, he still put up 1,046 yards.  This in an offense that was sub 3.0 YPC for the first 10 games.  This is an offsense where Andy was at his absolute worst, and featured a player in Ryan Finley, who has no business on an NFL field, manning the ship for 3 games.

I feel like if you insert this guy into a high powered, properly called offensive scheme, that he could be among the games best "#2" receivers.  He's extremely versatile, and has continued to improve since he's been here.

Overated - Carlos Dunlap

This was an extremely easy pick for me.  I couldn't have typed it quick enough.

Now, let me say this first:  I do think Dunlap is a quality DE, and I do think (at times) he's very good.  He's also more than adequate in the run game, which is an often overlooked attribute at the position.  I am NOT at all saying he's terrible.

My biggest gripe with him is the fact he disappears for games at a time.  And this isn't a new issue either.  Maybe, I'm in the minority here, but it's clear to me he's a guy that takes plays, and even games off.  For way too long of stretches.  The first half of the last year he was nowhere to be found.  Yet in typical Dunlap fashion, he has a couple monster games to pad his stats, so they don't look so poor, and to remind people he can play.

Depsite this, it seems most of our fans absolutely love the guy.  To each their own, but I've never thought he's been worth near what he's been paid.

At the time of his contracts he usually been paid top 10 money.  Even now, I believe he's still like #15 in salary years removed from an older contract.

Did you know he's only hit double digit sacks once in his career?  Once.  10 sacks being the threshold.  Not 15 or 20. 10.  He's only done it a single time in TEN YEARS.  He's averaged only 8 sacks a season, despite seeing immediate PT and never missing significant time.

How many DE's get pad elite money with single digit sacks?  A.) Not many.  How many DE's continue to get paid elite money, and keep getting extensions, despite averaging 8 sacks? A.) Not many/None

Dunlap is a good player, who is often paid like a great player.  Dunlap can be great when he wants to.  The problem is, for wahatever, reasons he goes into multi-game stretches where he's a non-factor.

I like him as a player, but don't love the price.  And I don't understand the universal love here either.  If I were to say perhaps we should move on a trade a  31 year old who averages 8 sacks many here would have a conniption fit.

That's why he's an easy choice for me here. (Please, don't kill me)  

Ive had the same observations about Dunlap.
IMO he just doesn't finish enough around the QB.
Yes he will get his hands up and deflect passes 
But let's not forget he's 6'6. 
That's like a 7'1 center blocking shots in the paint 

My biggest gripe about Dunlap and Atkins is they really don't show up vs AFC North teams when we need a huge play 

I get he's a excellent run stopper. But in this day and age 
In the NFL with the rate teams pass I need more than 8 sacks 
A year from my DE. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 07:56 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Ive had the same observations about Dunlap.
IMO he just doesn't finish enough around the QB.
Yes he will get his hands up and deflect passes 
But let's not forget he's 6'6. 
That's like a 7'1 center blocking shots in the paint 

My biggest gripe about Dunlap and Atkins is they really don't show up vs AFC North teams when we need a huge play 

I get he's a excellent run stopper. But in this day and age 
In the NFL with the rate teams pass I need more than 8 sacks 
A year from my DE. 

Margus Hunt is 6’8...

It takes more than just height to block 58 passes as an NFL DE.

[JSR18]

(05-02-2020, 05:48 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The team went back to the scheme of 2018. The scheme change at the start of the season was on the coaching staff - their blunder. Going back made the running game better. But even in the 2nd half of the season Hart had a 42 run blocking grade. That's below B.Price (62.2), F.Johnson (57.8), M.Jordan (50.7) and T.Hopkins (47.5). You'd think that a RT should have a good run blocking grade.

Maybe I am underrating Hart. We'll find out.

 

You're not. We'll find out when Fred Johnson plays his way to starting...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[JSR18]

(05-02-2020, 06:39 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: Gio deserves to retire a bengal, gets knocked out by Ryan Shazier, who gets a thrill of doing so. FastForward to next season, tries to take out Gio and gets almost paralyzed and retired permanently from football instead. WHODEY!

Give Gio a bonus on my behalf just for that.

I may be wrong, but I think it was a WR Shazier hit. Josh Malone maybe...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk