Overated starter/Underated starter

[impactplaya]

I know the final 53 has yet to be settled.
Though it would be intresting this topic
I present.
Which starter is Overated and which is
Underated?

Here's my choice overrated
William Jackson
Under rated
Sam Hubbard

When they bring up young DEs in the NFL
Hubbard is never brought up.
But he is growing and starting to finish
As a pass rusher. He's also a really sure tackler
You don't see him Bite too much on fakes

WJ just has not developed into a real shutdown
CB. Ive seen him get turned around by
Average WRs. For someone targeted so much
He rarely comes up.with the a INT or pass breakup

[fredtoast]

Underrated by Bengal fans or underrated by the national media?

I agree Hubbard is underrated by national media, but most people here love him.

8.5 sacks and SECOND in the league in tackles by a D-lineman.

He is one of the key building blocks for the future of this team.

[impactplaya]

Eh let me see
National

[fredtoast]

Over rated....Trae Waynes

https://thevikingage.com/2020/02/21/assessing-minnesota-vikings-waynes-value-free-agency/

Cornerback Trae Waynes is on the lookout for a new deal after a tenure littered with inconsistencies during his time in Minnesota. He was selected with the 11th overall pick in the 2015 NFL Draft and earned just over $9 million last season.

The pressure was taken off Waynes during the initial stages of his career thanks to the standout play of Rhodes. This has not been the case over the last two years, however, where more was expected from the Michigan State product thanks to Rhodes’ spectacular downturn in fortune.

Although he has shown glimpses of promise, there is plenty of film to suggest that Waynes does not deserve a lucrative contract from the Vikings. Minnesota’s problems defending wide receivers on the outside was glaring last season and one of the prominent reasons behind their eventual demise.

There was a big chance for Waynes to step up and become the Vikings’ next great shutdown cornerback last year. One would think that opportunity has passed him by following a campaign where his flaws were exposed regularly.

Waynes managed just one interception to go alongside 56 solo tackles, two forced fumbles, and eight pass deflections in 2019. This is the sort of mediocre play we have come to expect from the corner during his time with the organization.

With so many pressing priorities elsewhere, Minnesota would be hard-pressed to offer Waynes something like the $8.4 million annual salary on a three-year, $25.2 million deal his predicted market value is set to command.

I know he is supposedly a better tackler, but the number one job for a CB is coverage. Tackling is important, but it is secondary to coverage.

[fredtoast]

Underrated.... Bobby Hart

In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579). Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6). Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps. If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64. He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review

I assume any analysis of his run blocking will look below average because over the first half of the season our run game was not just bad it was historically bad. But over the last 8 games the Bengals ranked 8th in rushing yards per game and 13th in yards per carry. And before anyone starts talking about our weaker second half schedule just look at what we did in the first half against the Seahawks #22 ranked run defense (14 att 34 yds) and the Jaguars #28 rush defense (20 att 33 yds).

[*SHRacerX*]

Overrated: Gio Bernard. I love the guy but he hasn't seemed to be the same player since that concussion.

Underrated: Trey Hopkins. He really found his calling at Center and was a stabilizing force in the middle of the line. With better talent around him, I think he gets more notice. He had some amazing plays where he made combination blocks that I have not seen many centers in the league pull off. I love his lunch-pail attitude, also. He sure didn't start off easy here, with an injury in year 1, but he kept fighting and never quit. Maybe Price could do the same?

[CJD]

Overrated by fans: Trey Hopkins
I think we've been so starved for a good center that we'll accept slightly below average as if he's an all pro. With an overall rating of 62.4 from PFF this year, Hopkins is the definition of "he's fine."
That's not to say he's bad. As you'll see in the tweet used in the next player's description, he had pretty decent PFF stats to end the year, but I wouldn't call him a strong starter like some fans would.

Underrated by fans: Michael Jordan
Hear me out, because I know his PFF grade is worse than Hopkins' haha. The first thing to note is that he was a rookie, so struggles were expected for him. The key to look at is how much he improves over the year. His overall PFF grade for 2019 was 43.7, which is horrendous, but according to this tweet, he improved on that number in the 2nd half of the season, when he came back for Weeks 13 through 17.

Second half of 2019 pass block (PFF)

Fred Johnson - 78.4
Xavier Sua-Filo - 77.7
Bobby Hart - 77.2
Michael Jordan - 74.2
Trey Hopkins - 70.2
Billy Price - 37.4

Second half run block (PFF)

B.Price - 62.2
F.Johnson - 57.8
XSF - 52
M.Jordan - 50.7
T.Hopkins - 47.5
B.Hart - 42

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) March 30, 2020

Compare that to his PFF ratings through the end of October (around the time he was initially benched) below:

Now that we have pretty equal snaps between Price and Michael Jordan...

Price: 288 snaps, 2 penalties, 16 pressures, 1 sack, 35.6 overall grade, 22.0 Pass pro and 45.1 Run block

Jordan: 275 snaps, 3 penalties, 14 pressures, 5 sacks, 32.9 overall, 38.2 Pass pro, 37.3 Run block

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) October 28, 2019

Maybe my expectations are super low, but scoring a 74.2 in pass blocking and a 50.7 in run blocking in the 2nd half after having a set of 38.2 and 37.3 ratings in the first half of the season shows significant growth. Not to mention he is only 22 and I see a player who is solidly placed to have a great sophomore season. A lot of people say we needed a starting guard and a starting tackle from the draft and, while I think RT we could stand to upgrade Hart, I was less sure on the guard, especially after we missed out on the day 2 wave of guards. If we could have gotten Ruiz or Hunt in the 2nd, I'd have loved that because they'd find a place and upgrade one of the three spots on the interior, but I don't think drafting a strict guard in the 4th or 5th round would have been a good idea. XSF and Jordan are a competent, if unspectacular, guard combo (similar to Hopkins, in a way), but neither of them is a leaking sieve that urgently needs to be replaced. Any 4th or 5th round guard this year would have had similar struggles that Jordan had last year, so there's very little chance they would have replaced Jordan, who himself was a 4th round guard (who we thought pretty highly of last off season).

Underrated by the Media: Tyler Boyd
Every time they mention the weapons Joe Burrow will have at his disposal, Boyd is either at the end of the list or not included at all.
Boyd is very similar to Justin Jefferson, Burrow's favorite target in college, and Boyd will be Burrow's favorite safety valve and first down maker. He should be at the front of that list, not the end (or not on it).


Overrated by the Media: No one
Every single player on this team, the media thinks is worse than they actually are.

[kalibengal]

(05-02-2020, 02:34 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Overrated:  Gio Bernard.  I love the guy but he hasn't seemed to be the same player since that concussion.

Underrated:  Trey Hopkins.  He really found his calling at Center and was a stabilizing force in the middle of the line.  With better talent around him, I think he gets more notice.  He had some amazing plays where he made combination blocks that I have not seen many centers in the league pull off.  I love his lunch-pail attitude, also.  He sure didn't start off easy here, with an injury in year 1, but he kept fighting and never quit.  Maybe Price could do the same?

agreed on Gio, also....based on current performances (i.e. last couple yrs) im going to say Geno Atkins. When is the last time you said to yourself, dam that dude is still very good and is dominating a game? Its been a while for me. I truly hope im wrong on this, but Geno isnt what he used to be and dont be surprised if the addition of Reader isn't as much of a boost for Geno as everyone seems to think it will be. They really need to start looking at replacing him in future.

[BengalChris]

(05-02-2020, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Underrated.... Bobby Hart

In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review

I assume any analysis of his run blocking will look below average because over the first half of the season our run game was not just bad it was historically bad.  But over the last 8 games the Bengals ranked 8th in rushing yards per game and 13th in yards per carry.  And before anyone starts talking about our weaker second half schedule just look at what we did in the first half against the Seahawks #22 ranked run defense (14 att 34 yds) and the Jaguars #28 rush defense (20 att 33 yds).

I understand the Waynes thing, but isn't Bobby Hart in a competition to keep his job against practice squad pickup Fred Johnson?

I see that you compare Waynes with elite shutdown corner status, but then compare Hart to his pathetic play from 2018. And it has to be a bit concerning that a practice squad guy is threatening his job. It's not like he's got a 2nd round pick to compete against, but a guy who couldn't make a 53 man roster is threatening his job.

I have Hart as overrated by the team, and while he did improve in 2019 there are much better RTs out there and there have been in the draft as well.

You excuse Hart's bad run blocking because of the team's bad running game. That's like blaming bad CB stats on the team's bad pass defense. Don't these go hand-in-hand?

 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-02-2020, 01:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over rated....Trae Waynes

I know he is supposedly a better tackler, but the number one job for a CB is coverage.  Tackling is important, but it is secondary to coverage.

My main concern with him is that I don't expect Lou Anarumo to be able to get more (or really even the same) out of a player than Mike Zimmer has.

It seems like when you sign a guy who has been really well coached, you're buying them at likely their peak. If you can't provide an equally good coach, that peak will begin to drop.

[BengalChris]

(05-02-2020, 03:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: My main concern with him is that I don't expect Lou Anarumo to be able to get more (or really even the same) out of a player than Mike Zimmer has.

It seems like when you sign a guy who has been really well coached, you're buying them at likely their peak. If you can't provide an equally good coach, that peak will begin to drop.

You have a good point.


Coaching staff: Most overrated by the team, media and many fans. It's a trifecta of overratedness.

They managed to make a 6 win team into a 2 win team and get the top pick in each round. Okay, so what are they going to do with these guys now? Are the coaches going to suddenly coach better? Will the play calling make more sense or will we still see QB sneaks out of the shotgun on 4th and 1?

The team did improve in the second half of the season last year going from 0 wins to 2 wins, but was still loaded with bad play calling and schemes. However, when you look at the schedule during the second half they only played against two teams with a winning record in the second half so that even knocks down those two win a notch.

With all the hype about the draft and the money spent in free agency, this staff, if it's any good at all, needs produce more than 6 wins. I have my doubts that they are capable of this, even with all the new fresh talent.

 

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 02:54 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I see that you compare Waynes with elite shutdown corner status, but then compare Hart to his pathetic play from 2018
 

Wrong.  The stats I posted compared Hart to every OT in the league who started at least 8 games and played 500 snaps in 2019.

(05-02-2020, 02:54 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You excuse Hart's bad run blocking because of the team's bad running game. That's like blaming bad CB stats on the team's bad pass defense. Don't these go hand-in-hand?

If a scheme change immediately made the the pass defense 100% better then I would say the scheme had more to do with them looking bad than individual ability.  Wouldn't you agree?  Or do you think every player on the O-line suddenly improved 100% at the exact same time in the middle of the season?

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 02:54 PM)BengalChris Wrote: isn't Bobby Hart in a competition to keep his job against practice squad pickup Fred Johnson?

I don't think so.  The only way Fred starts at RT is if Bobby is a better candidate to start at RG.

[Goalpost]

I'm going to pick both RBs in this

Underrated Mixon

Overrated...Gio.

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2020, 02:44 PM)kalibengal Wrote: agreed on Gio, also....based on current performances (i.e. last couple yrs) im going to say Geno Atkins. When is the last time you said to yourself, dam that dude is still very good and is dominating a game? Its been a while for me. I truly hope im wrong on this, but Geno isnt what he used to be and dont be surprised if the addition of Reader isn't as much of a boost for Geno as everyone seems to think it will be. They really need to start looking at replacing him in future.

I also have major concerns about Geno's production, but the guys who actually play against him voted him to the Pro Bowl.

Geno being Geno is crucial to our defense being any good at all this season.

[fredtoast]

Gio is over paid, not overrated.

I don't here anyone saying he is a great player anymore.

[*Synric*]

(05-02-2020, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Underrated.... Bobby Hart

In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review

I assume any analysis of his run blocking will look below average because over the first half of the season our run game was not just bad it was historically bad.  But over the last 8 games the Bengals ranked 8th in rushing yards per game and 13th in yards per carry.  And before anyone starts talking about our weaker second half schedule just look at what we did in the first half against the Seahawks #22 ranked run defense (14 att 34 yds) and the Jaguars #28 rush defense (20 att 33 yds).

Bobby Hart gave up just as many pressures in 2019 as he did in 2018 and was bad in run blocking all season.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(05-02-2020, 01:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Underrated by Bengal fans or underrated by the national media?

I agree Hubbard is underrated by national media, but most people here love him.

8.5 sacks and SECOND in the league in tackles by a D-lineman.

He is one of the key building blocks for the future of this team.

National Media?

[George Cantstandya]

Hot take, underrated, Randy Bullock. He isn't a Hall of Fame kicker by any means. But over the last few seasons we have seen teams looking for stability at kicker and not finding it. Randy has not been mind blowing by any means but he has done a decent job and added some stability to the position. Plus he hit that 57 yard field goal last year for the Bengals franchise record.

https://www.bengals.com/news/bullock-gives-bengals-quite-a-kick

Quote:Randy Bullock had no idea Sunday he had just kicked the longest field goal in Bengals' regular-season history, a 57-yarder with two seconds left in the first half of the franchise's 811th game.

Not only that, his 2-for-2 effort on field goals Sunday were his 75th and 76th attempts as a Bengal, qualifying him for second place on the club's list of all-time accuracy.

Also I know it is a term of endearment to call him Fat Randy, but I'm willing to bet he is in better physical shape than most of the people that call him that. :)

[BengalChris]

(05-02-2020, 03:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  The stats I posted compared Hart to every OT in the league who started at least 8 games and played 500 snaps in 2019.

If a scheme change immediately made the the pass defense 100% better then I would say the scheme had more to do with them looking bad than individual ability.  Wouldn't you agree?  Or do you think every player on the O-line suddenly improved 100% at the exact same time in the middle of the season?

The team went back to the scheme of 2018. The scheme change at the start of the season was on the coaching staff - their blunder. Going back made the running game better. But even in the 2nd half of the season Hart had a 42 run blocking grade. That's below B.Price (62.2), F.Johnson (57.8), M.Jordan (50.7) and T.Hopkins (47.5). You'd think that a RT should have a good run blocking grade.

Maybe I am underrating Hart. We'll find out.