What say you who give up on rookies and call them a bust?

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen.  Simpson played more as a rookie than lots of players who went on to have fine NFL careers.

Plus Jerome Simpson went on to have multiple seasons with over 700 receiving yards.  Not a big star, but far from a big bust.  Since Simpson was drafted in 2008 there have been 62 WRs taken in the second round.  Fewer than half of them (28) have had multiple 700 yard seasons.  Only 16 of the 62 had more than Jerome. 

Marvin never played rookies.  By the time we knew a guy was a bust he was elligible for AARP.

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 05:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Marvin never played rookies.  

You forgot the ninja.

Some people here might think you are being serious.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 05:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just reading the name "Billy Price" makes me irrationally frustrated. I wasn't the hugest fan of the pick but certainly didn't hate it. The crowing from OSU fans about how he was going to anchor the line for years certainly got old, as it usually does.

The dude just sucks, flat out. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest he is getting better. Hopefully he pulls it off this coming season because it is much needed.

If he even sees the field in a meaningful game something went terribly wrong.

[*jason*]

(05-04-2020, 05:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just reading the name "Billy Price" makes me irrationally frustrated. I wasn't the hugest fan of the pick but certainly didn't hate it. The crowing from OSU fans about how he was going to anchor the line for years certainly got old, as it usually does.

The dude just sucks, flat out. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest he is getting better. Hopefully he pulls it off this coming season because it is much needed.

Don't pin that exclusively on OSU fans. I seem to recall a vast majority of us excited to move on from Bodine. Anybody can be better than him; right? Just another cautionary tale of be careful what you wish for.

This OSU fan never thought too much of Price. I didn't think he'd be flaming hot garbage, but I wasn't terribly excited about the pick

[samhain]

I don't think Jordan was drafted with the intent of being a starter in 2019. The team surely had some idea of Boling's health situation, but even then the projected starters on the left side were Williams and Glenn until they weren't.

His play can't really be defended early in the season. He got manhandled up until he was benched vs Pittsburgh in that Monday night game. Still, they didn't give up on him and he looked like he'd learned from his first action vs NFL d-linemen in his second stint as a starter. The makes me think that he has what it takes mentally to play at the pro level. It's just a matter of strength and conditioning.

I think that MJ's role on the team depends mostly on his physical development. He's definitely got the frame to add some muscle and get the job done.

There's a decent chance that it will be rough going with a first year starter at LT and a developing starter at LG on the field together, but I don't think it's far fetched to view those two as the long-term future on that side. The positive side of it for Jordan is that he's gotten his feet wet and (hopefully with the current situation) will have a full year in a NFL strength program. Boling was pretty bad in year 1. He may not have been as bad as MJ was in 19, but he was still pretty awful. Then he adjusted to the pro game and became a cornerstone for a long time. Hopefully MJ follows Boling's trajectory. I think he's got more potential from a physical standpoint than Boling did.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 05:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: If he even sees the field in a meaningful game something went terribly wrong.

Careful.  You're flirting with the "hater" label. 

[fredtoast]

When we drafted Price I had some questions if he would ever be a big star. But I never imagined he would be this bad.  

Even after his rookie season I gave him a break because he had not been able to lift the prior off season.  I expected him to take a big step forward las year, but on a team full of disappointments Price was the biggest one to me.

[Luvnit2]

(05-04-2020, 05:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When we drafted Price I had some questions if he would ever be a big star. But I never imagined he would be this bad.  

Even after his rookie season I gave him a break because he had not been able to lift the prior off season.  I expected him to take a big step forward las year, but on a team full of disappointments Price was the biggest one to me.

I agree and why it scares me to death Jonah Williams did not play in 2019 so we have no idea if he can handle the NFL. I am an optimist, but scary.

[Bengalholic]

(05-04-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen.  Simpson played more as a rookie than lots of players who went on to have fine NFL careers.

Plus Jerome Simpson went on to have multiple seasons with over 700 receiving yards.  Not a big star, but far from a big bust.  Since Simpson was drafted in 2008 there have been 62 WRs taken in the second round. Fewer than half of them (28) have had multiple 700 yard seasons.  Only 16 of the 62 had more than Jerome. [

7 of the 62 were 2020 draft picks, so not sure why you're including them, since they have yet to play. 7 more were drafted last year, so they haven't even had 'multiple' seasons yet. 6 more were drafted in 2018, so they've only had 2 seasons total. That means 28 of the 42 who have actually played more than 2 seasons have had multiple 700 yard seasons.

[BURROWorBUST]

Honestly? I don't know many of us who give up on rookies. It's when they're in year 3 and 4 that we tend to lose patience with coaches who seem to tolerate mediocrity. I was a little surprised to see Redmund get a new contract. Maybe the light goes on for him this year, who knows? Same with Price. William Jackson is the last 1st round pick we've had that's amounted to to anything. Before then, I guess it was Dre K. We've had a bit of bad luck with first rounders recently. Either they suck, or they're hurt and can't play.

I'm doing my best to follow my own advice.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: 7 of the 62 were 2020 draft picks, so not sure why you're including them, since they have yet to play.

Two reasons, 1) because 62 looks better than 55 for his point and 2) by limiting it to only 2nd round players fred has intentionally excluded WRs like Tyrell Williams and Kenny Golladay. 

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-04-2020, 04:11 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Some players, 1 year is all you need to see. Ogbuehi played in 5 games and was literally the worst OL I have ever seen play in the NFL. That is not exaggerated. I seriously can't think of anyone with a worse showing. 2016 was a losing season in large part because he played so much (And Ken Zampese offense.)

Even Price I didn't fully give up on until his second year.

Will Clark and Margus Hunt only took a year to realize they were no good. Jerome Simpson being a 2nd round healthy scratch as a rookie was all you needed to know.

I called Ogbuehi, Hunt , Clark , Vigil bust after year one. I’m not liking this Wilson pick at all now after watching him. I hope he proves me wrong.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2020, 05:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You forgot the ninja.

Some people here might think you are being serious.

Buddy, I AM the ninja.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 06:01 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree and why it scares me to death Jonah Williams did not play in 2019 so we have no idea if he can handle the NFL. I am an optimist, but scary.

Jonah was the very first olineman off the board in his draft. Price we had to settle for.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-04-2020, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever seen.  Simpson played more as a rookie than lots of players who went on to have fine NFL careers.

Plus Jerome Simpson went on to have multiple seasons with over 700 receiving yards.  Not a big star, but far from a big bust.  Since Simpson was drafted in 2008 there have been 62 WRs taken in the second round.  Fewer than half of them (28) have had multiple 700 yard seasons.  Only 16 of the 62 had more than Jerome. 

Simpson had 1 catch for 2 yards his entire rookie season. Are these "lots" of players you are referring to people who missed their entire rookie season due to injury? Because that'd be very Fred of you to compare a guy who got hurt versus a guy who was healthy and simply couldn't make the roster.

He spent 4 years on the Bengals and produced 1,004 receiving yards in those 4 years.... as a 2nd round pick. That's a bust Fred.

(05-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: 7 of the 62 were 2020 draft picks, so not sure why you're including them, since they have yet to play. 7 more were drafted last year, so they haven't even had 'multiple' seasons yet. 6 more were drafted in 2018, so they've only had 2 seasons total. That means 28 of the 42 who have actually played more than 2 seasons have had multiple 700 yard seasons.

Lol, yeah. Gotta love them Fred statistics. This one is particularly funny/bad.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 06:39 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Simpson had 1 catch for 2 yards his entire rookie season. Are these "lots" of players you are referring to people who missed their entire rookie season due to injury? Because that'd be very Fred of you to compare a guy who got hurt versus a guy who was healthy and simply couldn't make the roster.

He spent 4 years on the Bengals and produced 1,004 receiving yards in those 4 years.... as a 2nd round pick. That's a bust Fred.


Lol, yeah. Gotta love them Fred statistics. This one is particularly funny/bad.

That's why lawyers make the big bucks.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-04-2020, 12:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Come on, we know you are out there busting on rookies. Some have said Jordan was horrible, but did they realize he was a 20 year old rookie playing against 30 year old men in the NFL?

https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-guard-michael-jordan-looks-to-be-a-force-in-the-making?fbclid=IwAR3iROwBfbc27dgAKbiZysrUew9twth6yLLMY1DNvGSkltYqt6mdV6w-aTA

Nice article on the now only 21 year old OL for the Bengals. Let's see how he progresses in 2020. He is also a local young man and fan.

Have I been critical of Jordan for last year's performance? Yes.
I have not called him a bust though for precisely the reason you bring up in the OP: He's a rookie.

My criticism has been around the fact I didn't think he was ready to start last year and play well (which he didn't), and as such thought he should ride the bench in favor of a proven veteran until he's more well groomed.

With all that said, I understand the concept that he's going to learn best by doing, so put the kid out there and let him grow. We're just going to have to deal with the growing pains along the way.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: 7 of the 62 were 2020 draft picks, so not sure why you're including them, since they have yet to play. 7 more were drafted last year, so they haven't even had 'multiple' seasons yet. 6 more were drafted in 2018, so they've only had 2 seasons total. That means 28 of the 42 who have actually played more than 2 seasons have had multiple 700 yard seasons.

If you ever wanted proof that you can make statistics say whatever your want, many of Fred's contributions here are perfect examples of just that.

Just like when he'll put up numbers for Bobby Hart to "prove" he's much better than people think, he'll conveniently leave out "pressure allowed" and only use sacks as his metric for pass protection.  He'll point to the run game as a whole, over the 2nd half stretch, rather than the individual in question run block grades over that time.

You hit the nail on the head here.  Jerome Simpson didn't even hit 700 yards until year 4, and didn't do it multiple times until year 6.  So really, to be fair, Fred should remove draft classes from 2014 on, as they haven't had equal time to accomplish a completely arbitrary feat.

An arbitrary is the key word here, which can be applied to so many of these gems Fred offers.  Why 700 yards?  Why not 600?  Why not 800?  Why not 1,000?

Why not receptions?  Why not TD's?  Why not account for guys who had career ending injuries?

Everyone knows Simpson wasn't a good pick, including Fred.  Pulling a 700 yard stat out of your arse isn't changing anyone's mind.

PS Jerome Simpson's lone 700 yard season here came immediately after Chad, TO and Jordan Shipley, the team's leading 3 receivers the year prior, departed.  We were left with a rookie AJ Green and Andre Caldwell, who was coming off 300 yards.

Translation - Simpson won the job by default in the midst of roster overhaul.  Had he not been put in a situation where competition is limited than perhaps that mythical 700 yard metric doesn't happen.  And perhaps if you inserted other 2nd round picks that didn't hit Fred's quota into that situation then their numbers would have been greater.  

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: 7 of the 62 were 2020 draft picks, so not sure why you're including them, since they have yet to play. 7 more were drafted last year, so they haven't even had 'multiple' seasons yet. 6 more were drafted in 2018, so they've only had 2 seasons total. That means 28 of the 42 who have actually played more than 2 seasons have had multiple 700 yard seasons.

Okay 55 instead of 62.

Guys drafted in 2018 HAVE played multiple seasons.

Still puts Jerome in the top half.

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 07:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just like when he'll put up numbers for Bobby Hart to "prove" he's much better than people think, he'll conveniently leave out "pressure allowed" and only use sacks as his metric for pass protection. 

I have begged the guys with PFF to post these numbers but they refuse.  Since you have them please post.