NFL's 4th and 15 proposal and the Bengals

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-22-2020, 07:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Yep, I don’t get why the NFL tries to make some new rule change every year. It’s driving more fans away than it is bringing new interest into the game.

I completely agree. I guess it's to keep us talking about the NFL all offseason (and look it's working), but it still pisses me off. 

On the topic of the onside kick, kicking after a touchdown just seems fundamental to *foot*ball. I mean that's what we did after every backyard TD growing up. Contriving a way to allow a team in the position to have to onside kick in the first place to make some exciting comeback is just silly. 


On a separate note, my new avatar is a burro, the wild ancestor of the donkey. Because Joe Burrow. I might have used an image of a burrow, a hole dug by a burrowing animal, but it didn't seem like that would make sense to people. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-22-2020, 07:37 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I disagree with your OP portion about AJ not fighting for 50/50 balls. AJ made a name for himself in the league doing just that. If we have any 4th and 15s AJ is our best chance and teams will cover him knowing that.

Taylor will have to scheme up some good plays to get a guy open like Ross or Tate, maybe even Higgins. That may be our best shot.

Well, we'll agree to disagree on AJ. Teams will cover him because he's an athletic freak with outstanding body control and is far more talented than any receiver on Cincy's roster. I just never watch him play and think "tough guy".

To be honest, other than the weed, I have no idea why I always forget Tate.  A player with his hands and leaping ability should definitely should be on the field in a 4th and 15. He seems tough, but also more crazy than tough. Diving for balls over the middle of the field? That's got nothing to do with tough. That takes a whole lot of crazy. In a bar fight, that's the guy who's side you take. I liked having guys like that on my team.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-22-2020, 08:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: How does this rule effect spontaneous onside kicks? I’m thinking Saints in the super bowl and Parcells before that. Would teams still be allowed to do that?? I hope so. Those were some of the greatest coaching decisions in NFL history.

I think it's still there. I don't believe that they're replacing the onside kick, I think that they are just adding the option. You can still fake an extra point and go for two points but now you're 25 yards away instead of just going for two on the 2 yard line.

They've made the onside kick extremely difficult to pull off now. I liked it when it went out of bounds and the kicking team still got one more chance after a five yard penalty. They eliminated that well over a decade ago and then they stopped allowing teams to pile up one side. Now you need a perfect bounce and lots of luck. I'd rather go for 15 yards with 4 or 5 options to get the ball to.

Ray Rice's 4th and 29 conversion on a desperation dump off against the Chargers years ago shows that anything can happen with trained professionals. Trying/Hoping to get a perfect bounce of a football on Special Teams seems more of a desperation play than a 4th and 15 last second dump off to Gio or Mixon.

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-22-2020, 09:40 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Well, we'll agree to disagree on AJ. Teams will cover him because he's an athletic freak with outstanding body control and is far more talented than any receiver on Cincy's roster. I just never watch him play and think "tough guy".

To be honest, other than the weed, I have no idea why I always forget Tate.  A player with his hands and leaping ability should definitely should be on the field in a 4th and 15. He seems tough, but also more crazy than tough. Diving for balls over the middle of the field? That's got nothing to do with tough. That takes a whole lot of crazy. In a bar fight, that's the guy who's side you take. I liked having guys like that on my team.

Lol ya we will definitely disagree on this one. AJ is way tougher than you are giving him credit for. Sure, he isn’t stiff arming guys, but he snatches the ball o it if the air away from defenders. Watch some of his early career highlights. See the Hail Marys where he steals it from an entire defense. Just look at his Raven games where he went toe to toe against Steve Smith and completely took over. I consider that tough. Like you said agree to disagree, but damn man, AJ is a contested catch boss!!

[*jason*]

(05-22-2020, 08:46 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: I completely agree. I guess it's to keep us talking about the NFL all offseason (and look it's working), but it still pisses me off. 

On the topic of the onside kick, kicking after a touchdown just seems fundamental to *foot*ball. I mean that's what we did after every backyard TD growing up. Contriving a way to allow a team in the position to have to onside kick in the first place to make some exciting comeback is just silly. 


On a separate note, my new avatar is a burro, the wild ancestor of the donkey. Because Joe Burrow. I might have used an image of a burrow, a hole dug by a burrowing animal, but it didn't seem like that would make sense to people. 

¡Pinche burro!

[Jason_NC]

(05-22-2020, 03:28 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Lets just take away the kicker position all together then. This 4th and 15 proposal is ***** dumb.

You know they are talking about this to replace the onsides kick, right?  The new kickoff rules make converting an onsides kick a much more difficult proposal.

[Luvnit2]

(05-22-2020, 08:21 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: How is an onside kick not huge risk vs reward? I think a successful onside kick is one of the most exciting things in the game..

The rule change to having 5 guys on each side of the kicker killed the onsite kick. I believe it was less than 10% successful in 2019. So the odds are probably worse to recover an onsides kick than to convert a 4th and 15th. Yes, you lose field position a little by not converting 4th and 15th, but again I think the risk is far greater trying to convert the on side kick.

[yellowxdiscipline]

(05-23-2020, 09:28 AM)Jason_NC Wrote: You know they are talking about this to replace the onsides kick, right?  The new kickoff rules make converting an onsides kick a much more difficult proposal.

I know exactly what this is. Converting an onside kick should be difficult, but giving them a 4th and 15 to convert is a lot easier. It's just a 15 yard completion. 

[kalibengal]

(05-22-2020, 03:24 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-updates-language-on-4th-and-15-proposal-taking-out-trailing-requirement

Have the Bengals FA additions to the defensive backfield improved or weakened their chances of defending against it? Gone are Joseph and Kirkpatrick and it looks like Shawn Williams will either lose some snaps or play a S/LB hybrid.
Cover
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Bengals WRs may be ranked 11th by PFF but they suck as a whole at getting separation. Boyd is great in the short range but doesn't catch a lot of balls 15 yards past the LOS. Ross still has great speed but is very unreliable. Tee Higgins is a big question mark. Some rookie WRs jump right in, some take awhile to get everything up to speed.

AJ is awesome . . . BUT, he doesn't really do a lot when contesting for a 50/50 ball with a DB. Julio Jones is probably the best at that right now with DeAndre Hopkins a close 2nd. Anquan Boldin was the best I ever saw at fighting for the ball. That was a big part of Steve Smith's greatness. AJ doesn't appear to have that tough guy, killer spirit that they do.

Losing Eifert hurts because he's made for 4th and 15 type of situations. Whether CJ or Sample can fill that role remains to be seen but that is a drop off.

Like most good RBs, Mixon and Gio are both very dangerous in the open field. I could see a roll out to one side and a screen set-up on the other. Neither is likely to be involved in a 4th and 15 situation other than a screen or blocking

Burrow is another question mark. A strong arm with a college ball doesn't mean a smooth transition to an NFL ball. There are adjustments to be made. Hopefully they can game plan around his strengths and work from there. I had that hope last year and wasn't impressed. Zac needs to step up.

If the rule is approved, I don't see this Bengals team being that threatening on 4th and 15. Next year, though . . .

Thoughts?

[kalibengal]

(05-23-2020, 11:16 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: I know exactly what this is. Converting an onside kick should be difficult, but giving them a 4th and 15 to convert is a lot easier. It's just a 15 yard completion. 

2 words : AUDEN TATE

[CKwi88]

They need to do something. Like Luvnit said, the success rate for onside kicks after the rule changes (no overloading, no running start) plummeted from 20%ish to 5%ish. They need to come up with something that is safe but also viable.

As for a 4th and 15 related to the Bengals? I don't think that there is a team that is really that much better equipped to deal with that than any other.

[Jason_NC]

(05-23-2020, 11:16 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: I know exactly what this is. Converting an onside kick should be difficult, but giving them a 4th and 15 to convert is a lot easier. It's just a 15 yard completion. 

That's why teams go for 4th and 15 all the time instead of punting.  

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-23-2020, 11:22 AM)kalibengal Wrote: 2 words : AUDEN TATE

Too bad it takes him 8 seconds to run 15 yards

[bonesaw]

(05-22-2020, 07:37 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I disagree with your OP portion about AJ not fighting for 50/50 balls. AJ made a name for himself in the league doing just that. If we have any 4th and 15s AJ is our best chance and teams will cover him knowing that.

Taylor will have to scheme up some good plays to get a guy open like Ross or Tate, maybe even Higgins. That may be our best shot.

This is what I immediately thought...AJ is Mr 50/50 ball.  The hail mary vs cleveland......

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-22-2020, 03:28 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Lets just take away the kicker position all together then. This 4th and 15 proposal is ***** dumb.

This, dumb shit right here.

[yellowxdiscipline]

(05-23-2020, 11:42 AM)Jason_NC Wrote: That's why teams go for 4th and 15 all the time instead of punting.  

Your odds of completing a 4th and 15 pass attempts are greater then successfully attempting an onside. If onsides were easy teams would do them more often. Getting rid of them is dumbing down the game. 

[Jason_NC]

(05-23-2020, 03:52 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Your odds of completing a 4th and 15 pass attempts are greater then successfully attempting an onside. If onsides were easy teams would do them more often. Getting rid of them is dumbing down the game. 

Especially under the new "safety" rules.  That's why they are proposing this.

[bengals67]

I really don't like this proposal.

Heard Solomon Willcots on NFL XM criticizing NFL for changing rules too often and having too many rules.

He is so right.

[Circleville Guy]

Are there just a bunch of yuppies coming up with these ideas in sports these days? People want to feel important so badly that they will eventually change these sports into something entirely different then what they originally were. How about base runners in baseball ride bicycles and WR’s can be on horseback? Seriously, they want to change something every single year. There’s also the behind the scenes things they change too, the balls change.... when is it ever good enough?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2020, 07:12 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Are there just a bunch of yuppies coming up with these ideas in sports these days? People want to feel important so badly that they will eventually change these sports into something entirely different then what they originally were. How about base runners in baseball ride bicycles and WR’s can be on horseback? Seriously, they want to change something every single year. There’s also the behind the scenes things they change too, the balls change.... when is it ever good enough?

It needs to stop.