Article about the defense

[NATI BENGALS]

Our D should have a giant chip on their shoulder. Almost every article I have read is saying our D is straight up trash.

We just upgraded half of our starting defense with playoff caliber defenders, and the playoff caliber defenders were added to a group that includes Geno, Dunlap, Hubbard, Lawson, Bates, WJ3, and Pratt. That is crazy loaded.

I hope they take all this disrespect and use it as motivation. Because I think they could make a huge jump up the rankings and that would apparently shock everybody who is not a Bengal fan.

[fredtoast]

Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons. I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's. And our defense has also been very balanced. We have managed to be shitty at everything. Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks. Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions. But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer rating
24 interceptions

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-31-2020, 01:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons. I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's. And our defense has also been very balanced. We have managed to be shitty at everything. Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks. Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions. But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer rating
24 interceptions

Yep, that defense deserves all the criticism they get. Worst NFL defense I have ever seen! The turnover this offseason was necessary and it will still be a pretty bad defense IMO. Better, but still not good.

[J24]

The defense finished out the year well last season. Hopefully they can carry that momentum this season.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

Several folks have pointed out what I was going to say - that Waynes is an upgrade because he's a far better tackler than Kirkpatrick - so I'll move on to a few other points.

Alexander is not an "upgrade" to Dennard, who is one of the best slot CBs in the league. He's cheaper, which allowed us to also get Reader and Bell, so it's a fine move. But he's not a better player.

We're better on paper. It'll be a major accomplishment if we're even a statistically average defense this year. The only realistic route to the playoffs that I can envision is average defense + explosive offense and ROY candidate in Burrow + reliable special teams. If we don't put those things together it'll be another losing year.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

Also "The bulk of the issues came from running backs or mobile quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson" is a pretty dumb sentence.

Apparently our problems defending the run was due to the other teams' ball carriers. Go figure.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-01-2020, 12:02 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Several folks have pointed out what I was going to say - that Waynes is an upgrade because he's a far better tackler than Kirkpatrick - so I'll move on to a few other points.

Alexander is not an "upgrade" to Dennard, who is one of the best slot CBs in the league. He's cheaper, which allowed us to also get Reader and Bell, so it's a fine move. But he's not a better player.

We're better on paper. It'll be a major accomplishment if we're even a statistically average defense this year. The only realistic route to the playoffs that I can envision is average defense + explosive offense and ROY candidate in Burrow + reliable special teams. If we don't put those things together it'll be another losing year.

Agree, but I feel middle of the pack D is something they can reach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-31-2020, 02:21 AM)Joelist Wrote: Let's remember that while Waynes and Alexander are roughly par in pass defense with who they replaced in run defense and especially tackling they are MAJOR upgrades. So is Vonn Bell and yes so is Bynes. The recurring theme of the defensive moves this offseason was fixing the poor tackling, which was at the root of the issues against both the run and mobile QBs - more than one analyst noted that looking at game tapes you saw that a lot of the time players were not necessarily out of position but just failed to actually execute the tackle.

This is better than not being in position and not being able to actually execute the tackle.

I remember our Linebackers being constantly out of position under Haslett.

What I like about the guys we brought in is their instincts all of Pratt, Bynes, Wilson, ADG and Bailey are highly instinctive.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-01-2020, 12:06 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Also "The bulk of the issues came from running backs or mobile quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson" is a pretty dumb sentence.

Apparently our problems defending the run was due to the other teams' ball carriers. Go figure.

That could be true.  I mean there are some special ball carriers out there, but most are of equitable talent, just with differing feature traits.  Or, could it be that our DL was feeling like jocks after practicing against the sham of an OL that we've rolled out there the past few years?  I'm thinking that they weren't prepared to handle good, NFL OL's that knew how to run block.

[SladeX]

(06-02-2020, 10:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That could be true.  I mean there are some special ball carriers out there, but most are of equitable talent, just with differing feature traits.  Or, could it be that our DL was feeling like jocks after practicing against the sham of an OL that we've rolled out there the past few years?  I'm thinking that they weren't prepared to handle good, NFL OL's that knew how to run block.

Seems like after a game or two they'd get a clue...

[SunsetBengal]

(06-03-2020, 01:39 PM)SladeX Wrote: Seems like after a game or two they'd get a clue...

It's not like that, at all.  Many people seem to think that building a team means just getting rid of poor player in favor of better ones.  Much like putting a new engine in your car, or upgrading your graphics card on your gaming pc.  But with a sports team, there's much more that goes into it.  You have to A, have a master plan, B. select quality players that have the skill sets to fit what you want to accomplish, and C. Bring them together as a cohesive group that knows and trusts one another.

Many times we have seen the "collection of talent' approach fail miserably.  (I'm looking at Cleveland, NY Jets, Washington, Miami, etc.)  People get all googly eyed when a team "wins" free agency, but unless they truly have a plan, like Tom Coughlin did when he retooled the Jacksonville Jaguars a couple of years ago.  That is just about the only "store bought" team that I've ever seen get that close to winning it all.

To be honest, your "snappy little one liner" response actually seems rather short sighted and lazy.. 

[SladeX]

(06-03-2020, 08:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not like that, at all.  Many people seem to think that building a team means just getting rid of poor player in favor of better ones.  Much like putting a new engine in your car, or upgrading your graphics card on your gaming pc.  But with a sports team, there's much more that goes into it.  You have to A, have a master plan, B. select quality players that have the skill sets to fit what you want to accomplish, and C. Bring them together as a cohesive group that knows and trusts one another.

Many times we have seen the "collection of talent' approach fail miserably.  (I'm looking at Cleveland, NY Jets, Washington, Miami, etc.)  People get all googly eyed when a team "wins" free agency, but unless they truly have a plan, like Tom Coughlin did when he retooled the Jacksonville Jaguars a couple of years ago.  That is just about the only "store bought" team that I've ever seen get that close to winning it all.

To be honest, your "snappy little one liner" response actually seems rather short sighted and lazy.. 

But it was snappy, though.   
I was just going for a quick chuckle. My days of bitterness are mostly behind me. More excited to see what we have this season, on both sides of the ball.

Still, had to be demoralizing to get stomped like that. It was down to much more than overconfidence and lack of good reps generated by practicing against an inferior O line. How much was bad coaching?  How much was talent? How much was  good players needing a change of teams? 

The fact that they never gave up is a testament to
A) the players professionalism 
B) the coaches ability to keep the players going
This was good to see. Marvin's teams didn't quit on him either, until,  perhaps,  the very end of his tenure. 

I agree that talent isn't everything.  Hopefully it was most of the problem.  Because if it wasn't,  then we have essentially the same DC and staff, bringing similar results this year.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-03-2020, 09:54 PM)SladeX Wrote: But it was snappy, though.   
I was just going for a quick chuckle. My days of bitterness are mostly behind me. More excited to see what we have this season, on both sides of the ball.

Still, had to be demoralizing to get stomped like that. It was down to much more than overconfidence and lack of good reps generated by practicing against an inferior O line. How much was bad coaching?  How much was talent? How much was  good players needing a change of teams? 

The fact that they never gave up is a testament to
A) the players professionalism 
B) the coaches ability to keep the players going
This was good to see. Marvin's teams didn't quit on him either, until,  perhaps,  the very end of his tenure. 

I agree that talent isn't everything.  Hopefully it was most of the problem.  Because if it wasn't,  then we have essentially the same DC and staff, bringing similar results this year.

Talent is a relative term, when it comes to professional athletes.  They're all genetically predisposed to be much better than you or I at certain physical traits.  However, not all elite athletes (and to reach the NFL is elite level by nature), they are not created equal.  Some are great at some things, and not as great when asked to do things that vary from what they are good at.  The key is in talent selection, finding the exact personnel, with the prerequisite skill sets that fit what YOUR team is trying to accomplish.

But, talent selection is only half the battle.  You also have to have a master plan that is capable of not only getting the most of the players that you have selected, but also continually devising and revising your scheme to counter and conquer what your opponent is about to bring to the game.  Bygone are the days of "we're a team that's going to run the ball, and rely on our defense", just the same as the days of "we'll just outscore every opponent that we come against".  The master plan has to be fluid, flexible, and able to adapt to whichever route the day brings.

[Sled21]

(05-31-2020, 01:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons.  I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's.  And our defense has also been very balanced.  We have managed to be shitty at everything.  Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks.  Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions.  But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer  rating
24 interceptions

Where do they rank for the last 2 years in the amount of time on the field???

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(06-03-2020, 08:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not like that, at all.  Many people seem to think that building a team means just getting rid of poor player in favor of better ones.  Much like putting a new engine in your car, or upgrading your graphics card on your gaming pc.  But with a sports team, there's much more that goes into it.  You have to A, have a master plan, B. select quality players that have the skill sets to fit what you want to accomplish, and C. Bring them together as a cohesive group that knows and trusts one another.

Many times we have seen the "collection of talent' approach fail miserably.  (I'm looking at Cleveland, NY Jets, Washington, Miami, etc.)  People get all googly eyed when a team "wins" free agency, but unless they truly have a plan, like Tom Coughlin did when he retooled the Jacksonville Jaguars a couple of years ago.  That is just about the only "store bought" team that I've ever seen get that close to winning it all.

To be honest, your "snappy little one liner" response actually seems rather short sighted and lazy..  

I see it as much more of a jigsaw where it's primarily about fit. With one or two exceptions (and they are superstars) players can't do it all. So it's about putting players in a position which minimizes their weaknesses and plays to their strength. You may have shutdown corners against the pass but if teams can run at will against you (and they did for the first half of the season) that won't matter. You may have a great run defense but teams can then elect to pass over your great run defenders. It's about finding that balance. Maybe the Bengals' focus on stopping the run will work, but maybe we'll then have become too run orientated and teams will beat us in the pass game. We need to strike the right balance. I'm heartened that we seem to have a plan though. Now to see if it's a good one.

[fredtoast]

(06-05-2020, 08:29 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Where do they rank for the last 2 years in the amount of time on the field???

Considering they are 31st in stopping third down conversions I assume it is pretty high.

[Joelist]

Let's remember that they did not go after players who could only play the run. The priority seemed to be balanced players (run/pass) who can TACKLE. I think the coaches were motivated by the display season long of atrocious tackling and decided that job #1 was fixing it.

[HarleyDog]

(06-03-2020, 08:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not like that, at all.  Many people seem to think that building a team means just getting rid of poor player in favor of better ones.  Much like putting a new engine in your car, or upgrading your graphics card on your gaming pc.  But with a sports team, there's much more that goes into it.  You have to A, have a master plan, B. select quality players that have the skill sets to fit what you want to accomplish, and C. Bring them together as a cohesive group that knows and trusts one another.

Many times we have seen the "collection of talent' approach fail miserably.  (I'm looking at Cleveland, NY Jets, Washington, Miami, etc.)  People get all googly eyed when a team "wins" free agency, but unless they truly have a plan, like Tom Coughlin did when he retooled the Jacksonville Jaguars a couple of years ago.  That is just about the only "store bought" team that I've ever seen get that close to winning it all.

I think ZT has great football knowledge and strategy. I laugh at the teams mentioned who collected talent with no direction. When you get too many egos on the field, IMO, it get's tough to get cohesion. It has to be about team, and not about me, aka Patriots. I'm pretty confident that we have a plan in place and although it hasn't been pretty at first, it will pan out and the dividends will start rolling in.

Focusing on retooling the defense through FA and the draft was a great start. We got hammered last year and as the saying goes, "Defense wins championships," they also prevent you from winning as well. We had a sloppy defense last year that couldn't prevent 1st down conversions and huge yardage. The few times we made an offense go 3 and out was becoming like watching "Ripley's, Believe it or not?"

Leadership is about accountability. That's why ZT went for leaders in the draft. I'm excited to watch this team come together this year. It may be sloppy for awhile because cohesion doesn't just happen on the practice field or locker room. Mistakes will have to be made to learn each others rolls. Yet, I bet they get it together rather quickly. It's going to be fun.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-06-2020, 03:13 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I think ZT has great football knowledge and strategy. I laugh at the teams mentioned who collected talent with no direction. When you get too many egos on the field, IMO, it get's tough to get cohesion. It has to be about team, and not about me, aka Patriots. I'm pretty confident that we have a plan in place and although it hasn't been pretty at first, it will pan out and the dividends will start rolling in.

Focusing on retooling the defense through FA and the draft was a great start. We got hammered last year and as the saying goes, "Defense wins championships," they also prevent you from winning as well. We had a sloppy defense last year that couldn't prevent 1st down conversions and huge yardage. The few times we made an offense go 3 and out was becoming like watching "Ripley's, Believe it or not?"

Leadership is about accountability. That's why ZT went for leaders in the draft. I'm excited to watch this team come together this year. It may be sloppy for awhile because cohesion doesn't just happen on the practice field or locker room. Mistakes will have to be made to learn each others rolls. Yet, I bet they get it together rather quickly. It's going to be fun.

I agree, as your thoughts on football seem be parallel with mine.  I can understand why they chose to upgrade the Defense through free agency, rather than the offense.  Typically, defenses gel faster than offenses, and if you're bringing in veteran players who have never played together, it makes sense to do it on the side of the ball where cohesion happens quickest.  It's true that the defense needed more help than the offense, but I don't think it was a matter that we had terrible players in place, more of a situation where their particular strengths didn't fit well with what our new coaching staff was asking them to do.

The theme of drafting leaders, with captains patches in their history makes absolute sense.  They are used to and accustomed to setting the example, the tone of attitude, and holding those around them accountable to the team.  With physical talent being relative at the NFL level, I think it very wise of Zac Taylor to target guys with exceptional personal traits and high football IQ's.  Playing smart and knowing how to be in the right place at the right time won't always win over the rare, exceptional talents with instincts to match that are found at the professional level, but I think that it's a great way to build the core of a strong team. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-06-2020, 03:13 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I think ZT has great football knowledge and strategy. I laugh at the teams mentioned who collected talent with no direction. When you get too many egos on the field, IMO, it get's tough to get cohesion. It has to be about team, and not about me, aka Patriots. I'm pretty confident that we have a plan in place and although it hasn't been pretty at first, it will pan out and the dividends will start rolling in.

Focusing on retooling the defense through FA and the draft was a great start. We got hammered last year and as the saying goes, "Defense wins championships," they also prevent you from winning as well. We had a sloppy defense last year that couldn't prevent 1st down conversions and huge yardage. The few times we made an offense go 3 and out was becoming like watching "Ripley's, Believe it or not?"

Leadership is about accountability. That's why ZT went for leaders in the draft. I'm excited to watch this team come together this year. It may be sloppy for awhile because cohesion doesn't just happen on the practice field or locker room. Mistakes will have to be made to learn each others rolls. Yet, I bet they get it together rather quickly. It's going to be fun.

(06-06-2020, 04:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree, as your thoughts on football seem be parallel with mine.  I can understand why they chose to upgrade the Defense through free agency, rather than the offense.  Typically, defenses gel faster than offenses, and if you're bringing in veteran players who have never played together, it makes sense to do it on the side of the ball where cohesion happens quickest.  It's true that the defense needed more help than the offense, but I don't think it was a matter that we had terrible players in place, more of a situation where their particular strengths didn't fit well with what our new coaching staff was asking them to do.

The theme of drafting leaders, with captains patches in their history makes absolute sense.  They are used to and accustomed to setting the example, the tone of attitude, and holding those around them accountable to the team.  With physical talent being relative at the NFL level, I think it very wise of Zac Taylor to target guys with exceptional personal traits and high football IQ's.  Playing smart and knowing how to be in the right place at the right time won't always win over the rare, exceptional talents with instincts to match that are found at the professional level, but I think that it's a great way to build the core of a strong team. 

Great posts brothers, couldn't of said it any better, reps.