Carlos speaks out about Racism and Bengals

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-27-2020, 08:39 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: the NBA ratings have been steadily increasing. They were Regular season games at first ratings always pick up further you go into the playoffs.

This isn't true.  The NBA rating have been stradily declining for quite some time.  And their ratings pre-bubble were better than they are now.  

https://slate.com/culture/2020/08/nba-tv-ratings-china-ethan-strauss-athletic.html

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-27-2020, 10:39 PM)Weazzel80 Wrote: If players are smart they won't be wanting their children growing up in a society where cops and legally murder people. 

Some things are more important than a paycheck 

I definitely agree that things are more important than a paycheck, especially people's lives for God sake.

Just saying there is a place to speak about all of this and it isn't on the court or football field.

We need to have a place away from politics and the ratings show most feel the same.

We will do something else other than watch sports, maybe play them if this keeps up.

Sucks, thought with Burrow we would get our Super Bowl and I would want to watch it.

Don't care as much if this is going on, keep politics out of sports....

We have so much politics everywhere, I know what they are going to say before they say it. Have for years.

[Sled21]

(08-27-2020, 10:25 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the simplest way of "weeding out the bad ones," as it were, would be to make being a police officer a generally desirable job.

If you look at policing on the whole, it's not a very desirable job, especially in the current political climate. The pay is mediocre at best (and in a lot of cases, below average), it's relatively dangerous, you have to deal with a lot of really shitty people (drunks, addicts, criminals etc) and, more recently, you're treated like you're corrupt even if you aren't (at least actively corrupt. They are all to blame for the blue wall of silence.)

Like you said, one of the only perks of being a police officer is that you get to have authority over people. Which, to be honest, isn't supposed to be a perk, it's supposed to be a responsibility. And "with great power, comes great responsibility" definitely should apply here. But what ends up happening is that the low benefits outside of this added authority makes the job more attractive to people who should not be given authority.

This has led to a pretty tricky situation nationwide. Essentially, the low desirability of the job has made it hard to hold a standard for police. Over the last decade, recruitment is WAY down and the attrition rate for police officers is higher than both nursing and teaching, two groups that constantly get attention for how few of them there are. And that's not to mention the fact that, in addition to the mental requirements for being a police officer (training, stress, responsibility in the form of authority), there are physical requirements as well, as you must be fit to be a police officer (at least in theory).

All of this leads to one of the main causes of what's going on today: Shitty cops are not being fired.
Look no further than Derek Chauvin. That guy had at least 18 separate complaints filed against him, according to internal affairs. This guy was, as a co-worker described “the guy not everybody liked or wanted to work with.” but yet was tasked with training two rookies...

The lack of staffing and applications to the police force allows people like Chauvin to remain a police officer even with all these blights on their records.

Logic would stand that, if you aren't replaced or fired for misconduct, then you would not be concerned with whether or not you are performing your job properly.

So, in order to increase the attractiveness of the position, I would recommend increasing salaries, increasing required training (a degree in some form of law or law enforcement should be absolutely required) and, as a result, increase the ability to actually remove police officers who are not fit for the job, as there would be people standing in line for the opportunity to be a police officer.

It should be a prestigious role in our society, but misconduct and lack of accountability has turned it into a place where too many of the people least equipped to do the job stick with it over the long term.

I acknowledge that I am kind of in the opposite camp as most lefties (and some of them may even disown me for this opinion XD ) in that I think additional funding would fix the police as long as it was used appropriately, as I said above.

If that doesn't work, then the entire policing system may just be irreparably broken in America, I dunno haha.

In actuality, the only real benefit to going into Police Work were the pensions. You work shitty hours for mediocre pay, but at the end there were fairly decent pensions. Most departments have gone away from those pensions now, so there is really no attraction to the job. I did it for decades, and steered my son away from it because I saw where it was going. Having authority over people is definitely NOT a perk, because every time you use this authority to take away someone's freedom you are subject to lawsuits. You have to be right every time, or your either dead or sued. I was lucky enough to get through my whole career policing in the inner city without having one lawsuit against me. That said, I had complaints. You cannot do that job without receiving complaints, because by the nature of it you are always pissing people off. So you can't really look at the number of complaints, you have to look at the number of complaints that were justified. 

[Sled21]

(08-27-2020, 06:28 PM)JSR18 Wrote: This! Finally somebody gets it! Kudos to you sir.

This and rooting out of bad Police Officers is the only solution to this problem...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

All one really needs to do is look at the fact that black police officer's are as likely, or more likely, to shoot black suspects than white officers, to see that the entire problem is not just racism. 

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(08-24-2020, 08:25 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Ah don’t get me wrong, I’m not hating on Carlos, just hating the notion that the Bengals didn’t act quick enough.

Show me what some other franchises did that was so much better than what Cincinnati did. I haven’t done the research on what other clubs did but I was actually very pleased with the response and donation. Lastly, if Carlos had an issue, why is it coming up now?

I'd suggest that the Ravens' statement is a good starting point.

(08-24-2020, 08:27 PM)J24 Wrote: Honestly what do the players expect the Teams to do?

Again, I'd refer to the Ravens' statement.

(08-25-2020, 10:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: I get his frustration because I deal with it with some of my friends.  They will prattle on for hours about what other people need to do to help fix issues while they have given none of their own time or money to help with those issues.  You can't expect other people to make something more of a priority than you do.

I think Carlos is in the wrong on this for the simple fact that he called out the team and Mike before he ever asked to discuss the issue in private.  He freely admitted that he hasn't asked Mike for this meeting, yet.  

The other issue is that Mike is a pretty self-aware owner.  He knows he's probably one of the top 5 most hated men in Cinci.  If he makes a statement about rallying together to fight racial injustice, folks are about as likely to run out and join the KKK. That's why he gave money to the coaches and players to set up programs.  That makes the coaches and players the faces of those programs and people actually like/respect those guys, making them more likely to listen.

As a pretty self-aware owner shouldn't Mike be making sure his players feel safe? That they aren't liable to be arrested for the slightest reason

(08-26-2020, 02:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Actually, if the park story is true then Carlos Dunlap, and the other NFL guys who were asked to move, did a huge diservice to their community by not immediately speaking out and bringing attention to their mistreatment.

They should have immediately filed a complaint with the park district. They should have tried to make the event locally known, by giving interviews with the local news. They should have their money and fame to bring awareness to this abuse by a racist park ranger.

But they did none of that. He waited two months to drop a single paragraph reference of the event to a barely relevent local reporter that's based in a town that is 1,000 miles away.

Meanwhile this ranger might still have his job, where he's mistreating others. The parks department faced no real consequences, and may still be rife with discrimanatory culture.

Carlos really could and should have done more.

Why should the burden of righting wrongs always fall on the victim?

(08-26-2020, 03:24 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’m thinking Mike Brown and the Bengals organization don’t do much more other than the statement and the donation because of reactions from folks who pay for their entertainment.

How many times have I read “I’ll root for this team until they kneel!”. “I’m done with this team when they start kneeling!”. “If this player kneels I’m no longer watching any games!”

Perhaps Mike Brown is running a business and thinks if he goes too far into the anti-racism realm some of his bigoted fans will back out of supporting his business...

As they often say in the NFL... “it’s a business”

How's it good business to alienate your most valuable assets? Fans stopped attending when the Bengals started losing. Now you've got a leader who you are looking to build around and who is inspiring the fan base and his stance on this issue is clear. You want to be on his side or not?

You look at your other star players - people like Dunlap, AJ Green, Mixon - these are players you need to win and they have opinions on this issue. Do you stand with them or not?

What you need to get fans onside is have these players successful. It's good business to be on the side of these players.

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 11:05 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: As a pretty self-aware owner shouldn't Mike be making sure his players feel safe? That they aren't liable to be arrested for the slightest reason

I'm curious, when was the last time one of Mike Brown's players was arrested for the slightest reason?

[CJD]

(08-28-2020, 08:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: In actuality, the only real benefit to going into Police Work were the pensions. You work shitty hours for mediocre pay, but at the end there were fairly decent pensions. Most departments have gone away from those pensions now, so there is really no attraction to the job. I did it for decades, and steered my son away from it because I saw where it was going. Having authority over people is definitely NOT a perk, because every time you use this authority to take away someone's freedom you are subject to lawsuits. You have to be right every time, or your either dead or sued. I was lucky enough to get through my whole career policing in the inner city without having one lawsuit against me. That said, I had complaints. You cannot do that job without receiving complaints, because by the nature of it you are always pissing people off. So you can't really look at the number of complaints, you have to look at the number of complaints that were justified. 

As I said, the authority is not supposed to be a perk, but it is treated as a perk by some of the people the job attracts (those who want authority). The obvious stereotype is the bully who graduates from high school and, once they become eligible to serve in the police, want to continue bullying people. I don't think the police department is filled with these types, but I'm sure it makes up some percentage of the force.

And I imagine qualified immunity helps with the civil lawsuits that abuse of authority may cause, as it creates a fair amount of gray area in which a cop may not be held responsible for his abuses or incorrect actions. 

As for the complaints, that's a fair point. I guess I assumed that internal affairs would not file obviously false or "retributive" complaints. I'd have to see how many complaints the average police officer gets.  In the article, it says another officer there had 6 complaints against him so its not like every officer is walking around with 10+ complaints against them.

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 11:16 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: As I said, the authority is not supposed to be a perk, but it is treated as a perk by some of the people the job attracts (those who want authority). The obvious stereotype is the bully who graduates from high school and, once they become eligible to serve in the police, want to continue bullying people. I don't think the police department is filled with these types, but I'm sure it makes up some percentage of the force.

And I imagine qualified immunity helps with the civil lawsuits that abuse of authority may cause, as it creates a fair amount of gray area in which a cop may not be held responsible for his abuses or incorrect actions. 

As for the complaints, that's a fair point. I guess I assumed that internal affairs would not file obviously false or "retributive" complaints. I'd have to see how many complaints the average police officer gets.  In the article, it says another officer there had 6 complaints against him so its not like every officer is walking around with 10+ complaints against them.

Qualified immunity basically went away a long time ago. And, it only covered you in cases where you were acting in good faith, ie, you arrested someone for DUI and they blew under the limit, they cannot sue you for false arrest. If you are not acting in good faith, it never covered you. And, anyone can sue you at any time. While they may not win, it is troublesome to have to fight these cases. 
IA does not file complaints usually, they investigate complaints that come in from the public. If someone complains you gave them a ticket for speeding, and they were speeding, it's still a complaint. There is a finding and recommendation from IA, which then will or will not lead to discipline. The problem is the press just puts out so and so had X number of complaints in 2 years, and never says how many, if any, were substantiated...

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 11:05 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I'd suggest that the Ravens' statement is a good starting point.

I'd suggest the Raven's statement is pure BS, made from ignorance, and they are going to have egg all over their face when they release the report announce there will be no charges against the Louisville officers. They were there serving a legal warrant, signed by a judge, and were fired at from inside the house (she had GSR on her hands, by the way, and his initial statement said she fired the shot) Regardless, they (her or her boyfriend) shot a Louisville officer, hitting him in the femoral artery and causing him to almost bleed to death. The officers RETURNED fire. Regardless of rumors, they were at the right house, her name and address was on the search warrant, and she was not asleep in her bed. Jailhouse phone recordings show she was involved in her ex boyfriends drug dealing.
As far as the guy in Wisconsin, he had a knife and refused to drop it, instead reaching into his car. That one will have to play out, but if you think he was shot because of the color of his skin, then there's not much sense in discussing it further.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(08-28-2020, 01:26 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I definitely agree that things are more important than a paycheck, especially people's lives for God sake.

Just saying there is a place to speak about all of this and it isn't on the court or football field.

We need to have a place away from politics and the ratings show most feel the same.

We will do something else other than watch sports, maybe play them if this keeps up.

Sucks, thought with Burrow we would get our Super Bowl and I would want to watch it.

Don't care as much if this is going on, keep politics out of sports....

We have so much politics everywhere, I know what they are going to say before they say it. Have for years.

It sucks you feel this way. Its your right not to watch though.  you may as well start right now this issue isn't going away any time soon.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(08-28-2020, 11:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Qualified immunity basically went away a long time ago. And, it only covered you in cases where you were acting in good faith, ie, you arrested someone for DUI and they blew under the limit, they cannot sue you for false arrest. If you are not acting in good faith, it never covered you. And, anyone can sue you at any time. While they may not win, it is troublesome to have to fight these cases. 
IA does not file complaints usually, they investigate complaints that come in from the public. If someone complains you gave them a ticket for speeding, and they were speeding, it's still a complaint. There is a finding and recommendation from IA, which then will or will not lead to discipline. The problem is the press just puts out so and so had X number of complaints in 2 years, and never says how many, if any, were substantiated...

Based on your feelings and the statement by Burrow, Taylor and AJ. Bengals will be prominent protesting social injustice this season. I recommend not watching this season. It's going to make you angry you may want to find a different hobby on Sundays

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 12:07 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Based on your feelings and the statement by Burrow, Taylor and AJ. Bengals will be prominent protesting social injustice this season. I recommend not watching this season. It's going to make you angry you may want to find a different hobby on Sundays

I'm sorry, show me where I said anything about watching or not watching, or being angry about them making statements. Not my argument at all. What I said was the problem will never be solved by looking at only one end of the equation.

[Whatever]

Just my opinion, but this stuff really emphasizes the need for better less lethal options for law enforcement. This guy shrugged off being hit with a taser. That usually indicates the guy is doped up, but if the less lethal option had worked, this would have never devolved into lethal force being used. Similar to the Floyd case where he was doped up and the combination of drugs, the physical struggle, and his health conditions were determined to be the cause of death.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Just my 2 cents with this whole Jacob Blake situation. He should have complied with law enforcement. the sexual assault warrant was for sleeping with a 16 year old girl. So no he isn't a pedophile. That cop felt the need to fire 7 times when once or twice could have been sufficient. Cops treat blacks differently than whites if you refuse to accept that fact your part of the problem.

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 12:30 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Just my 2 cents with this whole Jacob Blake situation. He should have complied with law enforcement. the sexual assault warrant was for sleeping with a 16 year old girl. So no he isn't a pedophile. That cop felt the need to fire 7 times when once or twice could have been sufficient. Cops treat blacks differently than whites if you refuse to accept that fact your part of the problem.

A 16 year old is in fact a minor. And while I wasn't there, the fact that being tased twice had no effect means the first couple of 9mm rounds had no effect either. He had a knife. I guess you would have just Chuck Norris'd him. I love Monday Morning QB's who judge police from the comfort of their safety that the police provide them. Funny how most of these sensationalized stories fall apart when the facts actually come out. That's the press for you, if it bleeds it leads... 

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2020, 11:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This isn't true.  The NBA rating have been stradily declining for quite some time.  And their ratings pre-bubble were better than they are now.  

https://slate.com/culture/2020/08/nba-tv-ratings-china-ethan-strauss-athletic.html

Dozens of folks Nationwide cared that the NBA missed a day of playoffs.

[CJD]

(08-28-2020, 11:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Qualified immunity basically went away a long time ago. And, it only covered you in cases where you were acting in good faith, ie, you arrested someone for DUI and they blew under the limit, they cannot sue you for false arrest. If you are not acting in good faith, it never covered you. And, anyone can sue you at any time. While they may not win, it is troublesome to have to fight these cases. 
IA does not file complaints usually, they investigate complaints that come in from the public. If someone complains you gave them a ticket for speeding, and they were speeding, it's still a complaint. There is a finding and recommendation from IA, which then will or will not lead to discipline. The problem is the press just puts out so and so had X number of complaints in 2 years, and never says how many, if any, were substantiated...

The article states that Chauvin was disciplined on 2 of the 18. So the media does report it if they have the information. The problem is the police departments are not really forthcoming with what the complaints are, how true or realistic they were and what the punishments are. It's just another case of lack of transparency. To be perfectly honest, the fact that we leave holding police accountable to the police, it's kind of a shit show all around. If you are expected to self police your own misconduct, how truthful are you even capable of being?

[Burreaux]

I know this might not sit well with everyone but I feel like there is one common problem in all of these “police brutality” situations. Someone is resisting arrest. If people truly care spread the message to stop resisting arrest and these incidents will decrease drastically. If someone feels like they’re being mistreated they will have their day in court. Law enforcement has a dangerous job and I respect them greatly.

[Sled21]

(08-28-2020, 01:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The article states that Chauvin was disciplined on 2 of the 18. So the media does report it if they have the information. The problem is the police departments are not really forthcoming with what the complaints are, how true or realistic they were and what the punishments are. It's just another case of lack of transparency. To be perfectly honest, the fact that we leave holding police accountable to the police, it's kind of a shit show all around. If you are expected to self police your own misconduct, how truthful are you even capable of being?

I'm not saying the system is perfect by any means. Just pointing out how it is set up. # of complaints really doesn't mean anything. Number of disciplinary actions is what needs to be looked at. And I'm in no way defending Chauvin, who by all accounts is an ass. That said, he was overcharged, and will be convicted of a lessor charge for not rendering aid. (IMO)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-28-2020, 12:01 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: It sucks you feel this way. Its your right not to watch though.  you may as well start right now this issue isn't going away any time soon.

Want football too bad, guess I will just have to put up with it.

Hate politics.