Joe is not Andy

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 02:48 PM)Okeana Wrote: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

With everything stacked against Joe, he is everything I hoped for and more. 

15 QBs have less time than him to throw yet he is getting sacked a lot more than any of them.  You must have hoped that he would have the worst pocket presence in the league if he is "everything you hoped for and more".


I believe that this is all about Joe getting used to the speed of the NFL.  I think he will get better with more experience, But there is no way in hell he is "everything I hoped for and more.".  .  .  YET.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 03:21 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: He stands in the pocket and lets the play develop while only having 2 seconds to throw.

That doesn’t even make sense.

Most of the time when burrow completes his drop there are already players chugging beers in the backfield.

He needs time to throw, and he has no time.

Look at the link Okeana posted showing how much time every QB in the league has to throw.  15 QBs have less time to throw than Burrow.  He needs to get rid of the ball quicker.

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2020, 03:06 PM)bengaloo Wrote: If Andy were still the QB his sack numbers would be worse, and his INT numbers would be worse. We've been thru this with him and it wasnt pretty. He had zero poise under pressure, like none. Maybe Joe is trying to do too much, but the dude wants to win and is already aware that he has to carry the team through the OL struggles.

I do believe there would be fewer sacks, but completion percentage and INTs would probably be worse.

FWIW, the point of the thread was not to bash on Andy (I only did that while he was here), the point was to help others identify the difference.

Currently Joe is getting sacked about 1 of every 10 attempts. In Deshaun Watson's first year as a starter he got sacked 1 in 8 and he didn't die.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-28-2020, 02:36 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: You don't have a 7 TD, 20 INT season because of a bad oline.

Archie Manning sucked. Period.

The oline in NO during his tenure was dreadful, but they made up for it by being absolutely terrible at every other position group. Don't sell him too short, he was literally the only player they had, and he ran for his life every year. A lot of those INTs were trying to make something happen. I mean, they EARNED the name "aints" in those days. They were dreadful. Even Bum Phillips gave up. The Saints didn't have a winning record until Mora came in the early 90s.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 03:06 PM)bengaloo Wrote: If Andy were still the QB his sack numbers would be worse, 

Dalton has less time to throw last year than Burrow does this year according the NextGenstats.

I am not trying to bash Burrow.  I think he will get better with experience.

But this Dalton bashing is just ridiculous.  Last year if anyone mentioned the O-line having an effect on Dalton's numbers thet haters would say they were just "making excuses"

There were a ton of the Burrow Boys who told me the biggest advantage would be that Burrow would not get sacked as much because he was not a "statue like Dalton".

[Hammerstripes]

(09-28-2020, 03:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Look at the link Okeana posted showing how much time every QB in the league has to throw.  15 QBs have less time to throw than Burrow.  He needs to get rid of the ball quicker.

Except that stat isn't an indication of how much time to throw Burrow is getting:

Time To Throw (TT)Time to Throw measures the average amount of time elapsed from the time of snap to throw on every pass attempt for a passer (sacks excluded).

That stat is the actual amount of time from the snap to the throw.  So, if a guy is a scrambler, he is going to have a much longer time to throw that a pocket passer.  Hence the reason why Russell Wilson has the longest time to throw.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-28-2020, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has less time to throw last year than Burrow does this year according the NextGenstats.

I am not trying to bash Burrow.  I think he will get better with experience.

But this Dalton bashing is just ridiculous.  Last year if anyone mentioned the O-line having an effect on Dalton's numbers thet haters would say they were just "making excuses"

There were a ton of the Burrow Boys who told me the biggest advantage would be that Burrow would not get sacked as much because he was not a "statue like Dalton".

No, that means that Dalton got rid of the ball much faster.

[Au165]

(09-28-2020, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has less time to throw last year than Burrow does this year according the NextGenstats.

I am not trying to bash Burrow.  I think he will get better with experience.

But this Dalton bashing is just ridiculous.  Last year if anyone mentioned the O-line having an effect on Dalton's numbers thet haters would say they were just "making excuses"

There were a ton of the Burrow Boys who told me the biggest advantage would be that Burrow would not get sacked as much because he was not a "statue like Dalton".

Time to Throw DOES NOT include sacks. Time to Throw measures how quickly they get rid of the ball when they do actually throw it meaning that a play like Sunday where Cox hit him almost instantly does not get measured in that. It is not a measurement of how well protected a QB is it is basically how quickly they get the ball out of their hand. When Burrow runs around to buy time his Time to Throw is going up, like the play that was incomplete to Higgins. If a guy snaps the ball and throws it out of bounds right away that would be a low Time to Throw.

[Au165]

It was mentioned earlier in the thread in passing, but it is interesting how well Joe has taken care of the ball with as many times as he has thrown it this year. He has only had two turnover worth throws on 141 attempts which is really solid, especially for a rookie with no pre season and a weird camp situation.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-28-2020, 02:17 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: He rarely throws dangerous passes. It’s impressive to see how he makes great decisions 95% of the time and a sack is typically better than an INT which is why we are in these games.

I love the desire to dodge contact and find an open guy in schoolyard fashion. It’s those types of plays that make Wilson, Mahommes and Big Ben the great QBs they are.

This.

And those are the type of QB’s that are successful in today’s NFL.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-28-2020, 03:32 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: The oline in NO during his tenure was dreadful, but they made up for it by being absolutely terrible at every other position group. Don't sell him too short, he was literally the only player they had, and he ran for his life every year. A lot of those INTs were trying to make something happen. I mean, they EARNED the name "aints" in those days. They were dreadful. Even Bum Phillips gave up. The Saints didn't have a winning record until Mora came in the early 90s.

I absolutely don't doubt his athletic ability or smarts, but I reiterate, Stabler and Namath at their worst, STILL didn't put up horrid seasons that Manning did.

If you look at the three years when the Saints had their best record, Manning had more picks than TDs in 2 of those seasons; their best year under him, they were 8-8 and he STILL threw 20 picks to 16 TDs.

I completely understand (and agree, actually) that if he was on a better team, the numbers would be better.

But the numbers are historically terrible, just awful.

About the only year that helps the narrative that he, "tried to make something out of nothing," was the year he had the most passing attempts in his career; he had the best TD to INT ratio of his career (23:20) and the only time he threw 20 TDs.

The team was 1-15.

Again, if he even had 3 of these types of seasons, I can see how the team held him back quite a bit, but that was the one outlier in a very shitty career; he may have had excellent athletic ability and gamesmanship, but he sucked. Sucked, sucked, sucked, period.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-28-2020, 01:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: His best attribute is not "getting rid of the ball"

He likes to stand in the pocket and watch the play develop and I dig it

According to PFF he was responsible for 5 of the 8 sacks yesterday by holding the ball too long.

I know the en vogue thing to do is shake our fist at the oline and they rightly deserve some criticism,  but Joe's going to take some sacks as he learns the speed of the NFL.

My hope is we let the kid grow and not try to alter his game to a "one read" type deal. He's going to take his lumps, but he's a big boy and knows exactly what he's doing.

I'm more disappointed in when he has some time or a designed pass downfield, it completion percentage is horrendous.. not all is fault but most fault falls on QB.

[*bengalfan74*]

And we're all happy he's not.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-28-2020, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has less time to throw last year than Burrow does this year according the NextGenstats.

I am not trying to bash Burrow.  I think he will get better with experience.

But this Dalton bashing is just ridiculous.  Last year if anyone mentioned the O-line having an effect on Dalton's numbers thet haters would say they were just "making excuses"

There were a ton of the Burrow Boys who told me the biggest advantage would be that Burrow would not get sacked as much because he was not a "statue like Dalton".

Well there is the fact that Dalton wasn't good even when not under pressure, so there's that.

[*Nately120*]

(09-28-2020, 02:50 PM)jj22 Wrote: If the Carr narrative doesn't sell you. The Luck one should. Burrow can't keep taking these hits. It's just not going to end well. Not with our Bengals luck. The new coaches may not know they are playing with fire, but we as a fanbase should see what is coming from a mile away.

Meh, if Burrow doesn't miraculously drag his dead weight coaches to some wins ZT knows he's going to get fired at the end of the season.  Burrow is the most talented person on our team by far, so he may as well put the kid's life in jeopardy if it could save his job...ol' ZT and company aren't going to be around for the blowback of breaking Burrow, anyways.

That's a pretty selfish mindset for me to assign to ZT, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Whatever]

(09-28-2020, 02:57 PM)Au165 Wrote: As I told you in another thread, Cunningham took those hits and played a long time. Watson is taking those hits and seems to be playing through it. Also as I said there, I am not saying the O line is in a good place but acting like one guy who got hit a lot is the future for everyone else is a huge leap.

The Luck thing is interesting, he actually wasn't sacked all that much relative to his passing attempts. The numbers don't actually support the narrative people tried to paint around him. His highest sack % year was his rookie year at 6.1% which isn't bad and most years it was close to 4% which is really good. For comparison, Russell Wilson has a career sack percentage of 8.4%, he gets hit a ton and no one seems to talk about it. 

Yup. All of these guys are different.  Carson Palmer had an amazing line and one freak hit basically ruined him.  He was constantly staring at the rush instead of down the field after that. Some guys are mentally and physically tough enough to handle it and some aren't.

[*Nately120*]

(09-28-2020, 03:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: The oline in NO during his tenure was dreadful, but they made up for it by being absolutely terrible at every other position group. Don't sell him too short, he was literally the only player they had, and he ran for his life every year. A lot of those INTs were trying to make something happen. I mean, they EARNED the name "aints" in those days. They were dreadful. Even Bum Phillips gave up. The Saints didn't have a winning record until Mora came in the early 90s.

Yeah, far be it from me to defend any Manning but back in them old days the NFL wasn't nearly as design for parity and if you had a lazy or lousy owner you'd have franchises like the Bucs and the Ain'ts that were the modern day equivalent of an XFL team playing vs NFL teams.  Well, maybe that's a bit much but the Saints didn't have a winning season until their 21st year of existence and that's some odds-defying crap. That would be like the Houston Texans finally getting their first winning season in 2023.

[Pat5775]

(09-28-2020, 02:49 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Me too, he's fearless.  I just pray to God that he doesn't hurt himself.

He's in his 3rd game without a preseason and he already looks like a veteran.  He's the real deal and we were damn lucky to get him.

For sure. Joe was the most obvious first pick in years. Can you imagine if this organization passed on him on draft night? I’m guessing Paul Brown Stadium would have been burned to the ground by morning.

[*Nately120*]

(09-28-2020, 11:00 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: For sure. Joe was the most obvious first pick in years. Can you imagine if this organization passed on him on draft night? I’m guessing Paul Brown Stadium would have been burned to the ground by morning.

Ida know...we were convinced the 2-14 2019 team was in win-now mode and could NEVER do worse than stupid Marvin did with Driskel under center, so I think we could have mustered up some optimism for the 2020 team sans Burrow.  Maybe we traded down for a bunch of picks and picked up Cam Newton for a song, or we got Chase Young and Jalen Hurts?

I mean, I'm glad we took Burrow but the idea that we could possibly be here saying that Burrow looks OK in Washington but not 1st overall pick no-brainer good isn't the craziest thing I've considered.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Down the field accuracy from Burrow. I saw glimpses of that Sunday.