When the Backups Play Better Than the Starters.

[jfkbengals]

(10-25-2020, 09:12 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Johnson was decent at LT the last couple games last season. Why don’t they try Johnson at RT and move Hart inside ? I’m no Oline guru but Hart’s a good run blocker wouldn’t he be more helpful inside ?

He's not the kind of guy that will win in a phone booth...

[TKUHL]

Adeniji needs to start over Hart.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-25-2020, 10:06 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Adeniji needs to start over Hart.

Hart has been playing fine.

[samhain]

(10-25-2020, 11:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hart has been playing fine.

Perhaps.  I have no idea what the extent of Hart's injury is.  

All I do know is that I would like to see Adenji get some significant playing time.  I don't have mega-expectations.  I just want to have a decent sample size of how he holds up before the season ends.  

Needs are popping up all over this roster.  If he can alleviate one, then we need to know, and in the long term, RT is a need IMO.

[cincyfan429]

(10-25-2020, 07:46 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We saw it with our own eyes, didn’t we?  When Jonah Williams, Trey Hopkins, and Bobby Hart left the game due to injury the offensive line got better — and this shouldn’t be the case.  Let’s carefully examine why it happened.

Why did an offensive line comprised of Fred Johnson, Michael Jordan, Billy Price, Alex Redmond, and Hakeem Adeniji show improvement over the starters?  The starters get more snaps in practice so if backup players outplay the starters it means the snaps in practice are unproductive.  It means the starters are practicing bad habits.  

This is not a new issue with the Bengals.  For decades we’ve seen backups come off the bench and outplay starters at every position.  This is because all the good habits from college and from other teams haven’t been coached out of the backups yet.

It comes down to the evaluation of talent they have blown there last several picks on O-Lineman. Price and Ogbuehi two first rounders who have not worked out. Even getting Cordy Glenn was a mistake. Find a scout who knows how to pick a O-Line. There is only 1 Bengal player in the HOF so they never draft well or evaluate talent like so many successful teams in the league do.

[KillerGoose]

(10-25-2020, 08:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Question: did Jonah ever play any OG at Alabama?

I know it’s a really small sample size between last season and today, but if FJ is actually a decent OT, what about kicking Jonah inside?

Johnson - Williams - Hopkins- XSF - Hart?

He did not. He played RT his freshman year and then LT for the rest of his career.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-26-2020, 12:57 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: He did not. He played RT his freshman year and then LT for the rest of his career.

Ah ok. Probably best to keep him at LT (unless we get Sewell) then.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-25-2020, 07:46 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We saw it with our own eyes, didn’t we?  When Jonah Williams, Trey Hopkins, and Bobby Hart left the game due to injury the offensive line got better — and this shouldn’t be the case.  Let’s carefully examine why it happened.

Why did an offensive line comprised of Fred Johnson, Michael Jordan, Billy Price, Alex Redmond, and Hakeem Adeniji show improvement over the starters?  The starters get more snaps in practice so if backup players outplay the starters it means the snaps in practice are unproductive.  It means the starters are practicing bad habits.  

This is not a new issue with the Bengals.  For decades we’ve seen backups come off the bench and outplay starters at every position.  This is because all the good habits from college and from other teams haven’t been coached out of the backups yet.

You have an active imagination, my man. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-25-2020, 08:36 PM)WhodeyRay Wrote: When Price came in I thought oh crap someone order Joe a casket now! But I was very impressed with him. He was getting great drive on run plays and stoning the rushers on pass plays. To his credit the guy looked good. Some here would rather swallow their own head than admit he played well but I have to give him credit he looked good at center. Couldnt say that when he was at guard. 

I was also pleasantly surprised with how well Price handled the call to Center.  He was getting good drive on the run plays, held his own in Pass Pro, and actually spearheaded the charge on those QB sneaks.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-25-2020, 07:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Seemed like Jonah was the only one who played badly. Hart and Hopkins were fine before they went out.

Hart is the new John Ross.  He actually played one-on-one against one of the best DEs in the league (Garrett) several times and he did very well.  He is far from being a Pro Bowler, but maybe someone should pull up the PFF ratings for OTs and look at how few top tier talented OTs there are in the league.  

[Rubekahn29]

(10-26-2020, 09:22 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hart is the new John Ross.  He actually played one-on-one against one of the best DEs in the league (Garrett) several times and he did very well.  He is far from being a Pro Bowler, but maybe someone should pull up the PFF ratings for OTs and look at how few top tier talented OTs there are in the league.  

Hart>Ross. Ross doesn't even deserve to be in same conversation, thats how bad Ross is. 

[ezekiel23]

(10-25-2020, 08:16 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Adeniji played all of 3 or 4 snaps.

And the backups have almost NEVER out-played the starters, come on.


100%. If Jonah is good to go, I just want to see a T set of them 2, just once.

I don’t know the severity of their injuries yet,but when they are healthy,Johnson-LT,Jordan-LG,Hopkins-C,Spain-RG,(I’m assuming they’re going to sign Spain) Williams-RT

[bengaloo]

I think Turner was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by trying to make Johnson and Price OGs. Both of them look way better at their natural positions. Either way, I'm off the Turner bandwagon. Before we need any player upgrades, we need a new OL coach imo. I just dont have any faith in this guy anymore.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-25-2020, 11:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hart has been playing fine.

This thread is pretty funny.  Not because of the OP, but the responses.  

We are looking at all kinds of ways to re-shuffle the line for a team that put up 34 points in a divisional game.  The line has steadily improved and given the competition this week, I would say this was there best game.  Of course, PFF doesn't take in to account opponent, so the Jax game may look numerically superior.  

Things I saw on offense that encouraged me and THANKFULLY, FINALLY took some of the owness off the line:

Quick screens to Sample (who quietly had a nice 5 reception, 52 yard day and I thought got buttfucked on that play in the endzone) during blitzes.  And they even ran it three times. How many times do we see something work and then put it away?  Keep doing it until they stop it.  Burrow was quick, decisive, and accurate on these plays.  

Gio used in the screen game.  Another 5 receptions of 59 yards and a TD.  

Offensive line allowed for deeper crossing patterns to develop. 

Burrow back on the 30-burger bandwagon

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-26-2020, 09:15 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I was also pleasantly surprised with how well Price handled the call to Center.  He was getting good drive on the run plays, held his own in Pass Pro, and actually spearheaded the charge on those QB sneaks.

So check this out. 

Price got a 82.4 pass blocking grade and a 70.7 run blocking grade but his overall was 60.4 (i'm guessing because of 2 penalties).

That's a bunch of bull shit. 

[bengaloo]

(10-26-2020, 11:31 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So check this out. 

Price got a 82.4 pass blocking grade and a 70.7 run blocking grade but his overall was 60.4 (i'm guessing because of 2 penalties).

That's a bunch of bull shit. 

Those are some good numbers. Could he be better than Hopkins at C? Maybe its Hopkins that needs to be playing G. That was what he was originally supposed to be anyway.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-26-2020, 11:31 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So check this out. 

Price got a 82.4 pass blocking grade and a 70.7 run blocking grade but his overall was 60.4 (i'm guessing because of 2 penalties).

That's a bunch of bull shit. 

It's some bull shit, for sure.  I was skeptical of the validity of the holding penalty, looked to me like he just used the defender's body weight and momentum to his full advantage.  But, nice to see some validation of my "eyeball reaction" in those blocking grades.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-25-2020, 07:46 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We saw it with our own eyes, didn’t we?  When Jonah Williams, Trey Hopkins, and Bobby Hart left the game due to injury the offensive line got better — and this shouldn’t be the case.  Let’s carefully examine why it happened.

Why did an offensive line comprised of Fred Johnson, Michael Jordan, Billy Price, Alex Redmond, and Hakeem Adeniji show improvement over the starters?  The starters get more snaps in practice so if backup players outplay the starters it means the snaps in practice are unproductive.  It means the starters are practicing bad habits.  

This is not a new issue with the Bengals.  For decades we’ve seen backups come off the bench and outplay starters at every position.  This is because all the good habits from college and from other teams haven’t been coached out of the backups yet.

You are basing a quarter game sample size against an entire season sample size. It doesn't work like that. 

[masonbengals fan]

(10-26-2020, 11:42 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's some bull shit, for sure.  I was skeptical of the validity of the holding penalty, looked to me like he just used the defender's body weight and momentum to his full advantage.  But, nice to see some validation of my "eyeball reaction" in those blocking grades.

That holding call was bullshit

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-25-2020, 07:46 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We saw it with our own eyes, didn’t we?  When Jonah Williams, Trey Hopkins, and Bobby Hart left the game due to injury the offensive line got better — and this shouldn’t be the case.  Let’s carefully examine why it happened.

Why did an offensive line comprised of Fred Johnson, Michael Jordan, Billy Price, Alex Redmond, and Hakeem Adeniji show improvement over the starters?  The starters get more snaps in practice so if backup players outplay the starters it means the snaps in practice are unproductive.  It means the starters are practicing bad habits.  

This is not a new issue with the Bengals.  For decades we’ve seen backups come off the bench and outplay starters at every position.  This is because all the good habits from college and from other teams haven’t been coached out of the backups yet.

Of the five in the improved offensive line you cite, four have returned after being benched (and in Redmond's case, cut) by the Bengals for bad play, yet their success now is down to the coaching they received at college and other teams (was anyone other than Johnson even on another team?) prior to being benched?