We added Burrow, Green, Jonah, Reader, Spain, Vonn Bell, Tee Higgins, Wilson, and...

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 08:26 PM)Benton Wrote: Maybe. We gave up 35-37 in three of Burrow's 9.5 games.

On the other hand, we gave up 25 or less in five; 27 or less in six. Sooo..... we'd probably by giving up less. Especially given that most of those teams aren't scoring high. The Giants are averaging like 20 ppg, ahead of just the Jets (Yay Flores!) and Denver.  All the teams we would have faced are (outside of BAL and PIT) bottom half of scoring. As bad as our defense is, I don't think it would've been giving up 30+ points. I mean, this would've been about the easiest part of our schedule.

There you go bashing Flores for facing the Jets when we faced the NFC East which is especially bad...and we didnt win a single game. We did beat the 1-11 Jaguars (yay Zac)!

Zac is 0-15 on the road. 0-15! You dont do that with just bad luck.

[Benton]

(12-12-2020, 10:22 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's funny you bash Flores...

You realize we're in a division with essentially 2 teams like the Patriots?

Well, there's us. Not sure who the other team is. Browns and Ravens are holding their own this season and both have winning records; the Steelers are picking up wins. 

The Patriots don't have a winning record. They've had some decent wins, but they also only beat the Jets by three points.

So Flores couldn't beat Belichick on a down year. He's going to have some trouble next season when the Patriots get sorted out.

[Benton]

(12-12-2020, 08:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There you go bashing Flores for facing the Jets when we faced the NFC East which is especially bad...and we didnt win a single game. We did beat the 1-11 Jaguars (yay Zac)!

Zac is 0-15 on the road. 0-15! You dont do that with just bad luck.

No, you do it with bad coaching (all the coaching) and a bad roster.

This team is 5-10 players away from a winning season. Better coaching will help with that, but we're a long way from being competitive regardless of the head coach. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 08:37 PM)Benton Wrote: Well, there's us. Not sure who the other team is. Browns and Ravens are holding their own this season and both have winning records; the Steelers are picking up wins. 

The Patriots don't have a winning record. They've had some decent wins, but they also only beat the Jets by three points.

So Flores couldn't beat Belichick on a down year. He's going to have some trouble next season when the Patriots get sorted out.

Patriots are perennial winners. You talk about the Dolphins like they're only good temporarily until the Pat's are good next year.

Reality is the Steelers and Ravens are generally good each year. With no Roethlisberger, the Steelers are 8-8.

Here if we lose 1 guy...the Zac fanboys use that as an excuse as to why he needs more years. It's like they root for Zac...not the team.

If the Bengals fired Zac and brought in someone like Bieniemy, would it bother you? Why such support of Zac?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 08:41 PM)Benton Wrote: No, you do it with bad coaching (all the coaching) and a bad roster.

This team is 5-10 players away from a winning season. Better coaching will help with that, but we're a long way from being competitive regardless of the head coach. 

I think if Tomlin and the Steelers staff were here, they'd get 8 wins out of this team.

Yeah not a SB, but far from 2.5 wins.

Last year, after the bye they figured out how to run. A good staff would have the running game going.

[Benton]

(12-12-2020, 08:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Patriots are perennial winners. You talk about the Dolphins like they're only good temporarily until the Pat's are good next year.

Reality is the Steelers and Ravens are generally good each year. With no Roethlisberger, the Steelers are 8-8.

Here if we lose 1 guy...the Zac fanboys use that as an excuse as to why he needs more years. It's like they root for Zac...not the team.

If the Bengals fired Zac and brought in someone like Bieniemy, would it bother you? Why such support of Zac?

To the first: no, I'd be fine with that.

To the second: meh, I don't really support ZT, I just don't think this dumpster fire is all his fault. Or that the majority of head coaches who would come here could fix it. I mean, sure, there's a short list of guys who would win wherever they go. Most of them are either already head coaches or are enjoying their retirement.

It's like Bienemy. I get he's a hot name for a lot of folks, but he's got a good HC in front of him and a solid roster to work with. It's not like the guy is taking Merv's leftovers to the Superbowl. The Chiefs GM came in four years ago, and he's done solid with building a roster in that time. Personally, if I had a choice between Veach and another HC or Bienemy under our GM (Mike Brown/Tobin), I'd take Veach and the mystery candidate.

Good teams start with good players. 

(12-12-2020, 08:45 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think if Tomlin and the Steelers staff were here, they'd get 8 wins out of this team.

Yeah not a SB, but far from 2.5 wins.

Last year, after the bye they figured out how to run. A good staff would have the running game going.

Yeah, difference is, I think we would've gotten close to that on the easy side of our schedule. I understand you don't think we would've beaten the Giants, Dallas, Washington, etc.... but I do. Those teams aren't very good. Hell, we were within 10 of the Phins, Giants and WFT without even having a functional QB. If we'd had a decent backup, we probably would've won those without Joe. With Joe? Yeah, those games would've been wins.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 09:01 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first: no, I'd be fine with that.

To the second: meh, I don't really support ZT, I just don't think this dumpster fire is all his fault. Or that the majority of head coaches who would come here could fix it. I mean, sure, there's a short list of guys who would win wherever they go. Most of them are either already head coaches or are enjoying their retirement.

It's like Bienemy. I get he's a hot name for a lot of folks, but he's got a good HC in front of him and a solid roster to work with. It's not like the guy is taking Merv's leftovers to the Superbowl. The Chiefs GM came in four years ago, and he's done solid with building a roster in that time. Personally, if I had a choice between Veach and another HC or Bienemy under our GM (Mike Brown/Tobin), I'd take Veach and the mystery candidate.

Good teams start with good players. 


Yeah, difference is, I think we would've gotten close to that on the easy side of our schedule. I understand you don't think we would've beaten the Giants, Dallas, Washington, etc.... but I do. Those teams aren't very good. Hell, we were within 10 of the Phins, Giants and WFT without even having a functional QB. If we'd had a decent backup, we probably would've won those without Joe. With Joe? Yeah, those games would've been wins.

On the 1st part of your post, I dont think our views are that far off. Bieniemy wouldnt be my top choice either.

On the roster, theres more talent than 2 wins or 4 or 5 wins. Talent looks bad when coaching is bad. 

But, the overall crux of the situation is we need a gm and scouts and only Marvin has been able to win here over 30 years. So yeah...not just any coach can win here and Zacs inexperience and terrible results as a coordinator didnt help at all.

On Burrow - we werent winning with him We put up yards, but not points. All passing with no running doesnt win.

While we look at bad teams as wins, they see us as wins too. The Chargers are bad and beat us with Manuel. I could go on and on.

With Burrow, our offense ranked similar to last year. That's what people miss because they choose to think the output against the Jags was what it did every game.

9 1st half points against the Redskins was like 12 or 15 points that game and a loss.

And why didnt we get to see Burrow for 16 games? Because Zac calls plays like hes playing Madden.

[Joelist]

I think actual NFL grade coaches ESPECIALLY on the OL and defense would have given us at least 4 more wins. Add a Head Coach who actually understands football and we could be on our way. Ultimately of course we need an actual GM with football savvy.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 09:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think actual NFL grade coaches ESPECIALLY on the OL and defense would have given us at least 4 more wins. Add a Head Coach who actually understands football and we could be on our way. Ultimately of course we need an actual GM with football savvy.

Well MB has owned the team for 30 years and no GM. I doubt that changes any time soon.

[samhain]

I agree that coaches are the main issue here. I hate to admit it, because it sounds like excuse-making, but injuries cannot be ignored, either. It's crazy how ravaged this team has been with injuries to key players over the last 2 seasons.

While they may have added more talent player-wise over the last year, there are still to glaring and critical areas where they are severely deficient. The o-line and d-line are filled with shitty players, overpaid vets well past their prime, and cast-off roster chaff from other teams that somehow are expected to be saviors here.

If you're looking for true, high caliber linemen from a current, career-prime perspective anywhere on this roster, you're looking at Reader, then the rest. Hubbard is a nice piece that could be a great starter with the right guys around him, but he's not a game-wrecking pass rusher. Lawson is a one-trick pony. Daniels is far past his prime. Geno's decline is getting more apparent every game. That's not his fault, and yes, he's injured, but most of the elite DTs of his age are experiencing similar drop-offs in quality of play, ie Suh and McCoy. This was always going to happen, just a matter of when.

The OL is an absolute joke. Hopkins gets viewed as a godsend for not being a bottom-five center. He's still nothing special, and he sounds like kind of a wimp after his comments this week. He's probably the center for another year or two, but he's not someone who can't be replaced. Redmond is the genital herpes of guards. He comes back to the forefront every year to remind you how shitty it is to have him on your roster, and somehow he's ends up starting a shitload of games. Spain and XSF are league average and possibly below, but again they come here and get anointed as heroes because they aren't MJ or Redmond. Hart is totally overmatched against above average pass-rushers. He sucks vs the bull rush and gets de-pantsed by speed guys. Yeah, he's a decent run-blocker. Unfortunately that mean jack shit on a team that forgot that running the ball is a major part of the offensive game plan. His deficiencies also highlight the lack of talent at RG when they at times look like they have no clue who's responsible for blocking who. It's embarrassing.

Jonah is a semi-bright spot. He seems to be a capable pass blocker, but he's whatever vs the run. He's not a mauler. His size isn't anything special, and he's heavily reliant on technique, which is not entirely bad. If we can just find 4 guys to put with him, maybe we'll win 5 games within the next half-decade.

In summation, if the game is won in the trenches as the saying goes, then we're going to keep losing a bunch of ballgames. We have two absolute, undeniable dogshit taco assbag raw-sewage shit peanut-corn scarfing coaches over both position groups. We've also got a combo of mash unit has-beens and dudes who should be backups on other teams starting year after year. I wonder why we lose so much. Gee, what could it be?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2020, 09:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think actual NFL grade coaches ESPECIALLY on the OL and defense would have given us at least 4 more wins. Add a Head Coach who actually understands football and we could be on our way. Ultimately of course we need an actual GM with football savvy.

Why would management actually want to spend on good coaches when they can give us 2.5 wins and a percentage of the fan base will perform mental gymnastics and rationalize it to an 8 win season?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2020, 12:14 PM)samhain Wrote: I agree that coaches are the main issue here.  I hate to admit it, because it sounds like excuse-making, but injuries cannot be ignored, either.  It's crazy how ravaged this team has been with injuries to key players over the last 2 seasons.  

While they may have added more talent player-wise over the last year, there are still to glaring and critical areas where they are severely deficient.  The o-line and d-line are filled with shitty players, overpaid vets well past their prime, and cast-off roster chaff from other teams that somehow are expected to be saviors here.  

If you're looking for true, high caliber linemen from a current, career-prime perspective anywhere on this roster, you're looking at Reader, then the rest.  Hubbard is a nice piece that could be a great starter with the right guys around him, but he's not a game-wrecking pass rusher.  Lawson is a one-trick pony.  Daniels is far past his prime.  Geno's decline is getting more apparent every game.  That's not his fault, and yes, he's injured, but most of the elite DTs of his age are experiencing similar drop-offs in quality of play, ie Suh and McCoy.  This was always going to happen, just a matter of when.

The OL is an absolute joke.  Hopkins gets viewed as a godsend for not being a bottom-five center.  He's still nothing special, and he sounds like kind of a wimp after his comments this week.  He's probably the center for another year or two, but he's not someone who can't be replaced.  Redmond is the genital herpes of guards.  He comes back to the forefront every year to remind you how shitty it is to have him on your roster, and somehow he's ends up starting a shitload of games.  Spain and XSF are league average and possibly below, but again they come here and get anointed as heroes because they aren't MJ or Redmond.  Hart is totally overmatched against above average pass-rushers.  He sucks vs the bull rush and gets de-pantsed by speed guys.  Yeah, he's a decent run-blocker.  Unfortunately that mean jack shit on a team that forgot that running the ball is a major part of the offensive game plan.  His deficiencies also highlight the lack of talent at RG when they at times look like they have no clue who's responsible for blocking who.  It's embarrassing.  

Jonah is a semi-bright spot.  He seems to be a capable pass blocker, but he's whatever vs the run.  He's not a mauler.  His size isn't anything special, and he's heavily reliant on technique, which is not entirely bad.  If we can just find 4 guys to put with him, maybe we'll win 5 games within the next half-decade.  

In summation, if the game is won in the trenches as the saying goes, then we're going to keep losing a bunch of ballgames.  We have two absolute, undeniable dogshit taco assbag raw-sewage shit peanut-corn scarfing coaches over both position groups.  We've also got a combo of mash unit has-beens and dudes who should be backups on other teams starting year after year.  I wonder why we lose so much.  Gee, what could it be?

If any team were 100% healthy they'd be better than injured. But ALL teams face injuries. Some teams had key players opt out with covid too.

On the offensive line, I could probably find dozens of quotes from Zac and Turner talking about how they're fine. The coaches legit like Bobby Hart. They also apparantly like Jordan. Fans dont like these players but coaches do.

I'm sure if the coaches wanted, they could have talked management into upgrading the ol instead of defense, especially with Burrow coming in.

[samhain]

(12-13-2020, 01:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: If any team were 100% healthy they'd be better than injured. But ALL teams face injuries. Some teams had key players opt out with covid too.

On the offensive line, I could probably find dozens of quotes from Zac and Turner talking about how they're fine. The coaches legit like Bobby Hart. They also apparantly like Jordan. Fans dont like these players but coaches do.

I'm sure if the coaches wanted, they could have talked management into upgrading the ol instead of defense, especially with Burrow coming in.

I still blame to coaches for a lot on the OL and DL.  I know as well as you that they love these obviously inadequate players.  There are a few logical questions to ask here.  

The first is, if the coaches love these players so much, why do the players fail on a consistent basis?  Are they failing to execute what the coaches are teaching them?  Are the coaches failing to teach these players they claim to be so terrific, thus deserving all of the blame?  Lastly, are the coaches just so shitty at their jobs that they are unable to adequately evaluate the actual talent OR level them up to make them better?  

I'm starting to think that they flat out don't care.  I'm looking at Jim Turner here.  I think he's just happy to have a job hanging with his best bud Zac and drawing a paycheck.  He never bangs the drum for better players, praises players that are demonstrably awful, and if reports are to be believed teaches little to nothing in terms of technique.  He's a guy that shouldn't be in the position he's in.  He's dug in with his guys, ride or die, and he's gotten the most important person in that building into a position where nobody knows when he'll play again or in what capacity he'll be able to perform as a QB.

Turner should have been fired, Gregg Williams style after the game vs the football team.  He's a worthless shitbag of a human being and position coach.  He seems to make his players worse.  Get him the hell off this team as soon as possible, and do it in a humiliating fashion.  This guy shouldn't get a job coaching Pop Warner, much less in the NFL.

Paul Alexander gets dragged a lot here for his last few years evaluating talent and developing players, but he's 100 times the coach that Turner is, and that's some sad shit right there. Turner couldn't build a line like PA did here more than once if the lives of his children depended on it.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2020, 02:20 PM)samhain Wrote: I still blame to coaches for a lot on the OL and DL.  I know as well as you that they love these obviously inadequate players.  There are a few logical questions to ask here.  

The first is, if the coaches love these players so much, why do the players fail on a consistent basis?  Are they failing to execute what the coaches are teaching them?  Are the coaches failing to teach these players they claim to be so terrific, thus deserving all of the blame?  Lastly, are the coaches just so shitty at their jobs that they are unable to adequately evaluate the actual talent OR level them up to make them better?  

I'm starting to think that they flat out don't care.  I'm looking at Jim Turner here.  I think he's just happy to have a job hanging with his best bud Zac and drawing a paycheck.  He never bangs the drum for better players, praises players that are demonstrably awful, and if reports are to be believed teaches little to nothing in terms of technique.  He's a guy that shouldn't be in the position he's in.  He's dug in with his guys, ride or die, and he's gotten the most important person in that building into a position where nobody knows when he'll play again or in what capacity he'll be able to perform as a QB.

Turner should have been fired, Gregg Williams style after the game vs the football team.  He's a worthless shitbag of a human being and position coach.  He seems to make his players worse.  Get him the hell off this team as soon as possible, and do it in a humiliating fashion.  This guy shouldn't get a job coaching Pop Warner, much less in the NFL.

Paul Alexander gets dragged a lot here for his last few years evaluating talent and developing players, but he's 100 times the coach that Turner is, and that's some sad shit right there.  Turner couldn't build a line like PA did here more than once if the lives of his children depended on it.

The thing with the line is, last year after the bye...they made blocking changes and figured out how to run. Same players. Different scheme. And they could run. <-- That shows how important coaching is.

And the Elise Jesse article about coaches not coaching technique was pretty telling. I guarantee you the Steelers and Ravens coaches coach technique. That's critical to develop guys.

Basically, the entire staff had red and orange flags being hired. Zac had barely any experience even as an OC and the limited times he's been in that position, offense either got worse or failed. Lou was like the 6th choice. Turner was blackballed from the NFL. No team, besides likely 1 would touch him due to his past. Callahan is the least checkered guy, but he was a QB coach and making a huge jump.

Generally, you hire someone who is experienced so you can lean on them to improve. These guys have no one to learn from that has been successful.

Agreed on Alexander. We had some really good lines under him. Ced and Fisher were his demise. But, gee how many teams would have drafted Ced? He had a major injury...AND his scouting report talked about how he gave up a lot of sacks IN COLLEGE. But, he was tall and lean and muscular. They made the same mistake with Zac in some ways as he was young and an offensive coach, so they assumed he was the next McVay. Bad management teams make mistakes like this.