Let talk Tackles

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2021, 08:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: See, he didn't say "never";  What he did ask for was one that could play on an island, as opposed to seemingly always needing help.

Quit playing syntax games, it's annoying. 

I watch the games and Hart does not "always" need help.  

Now you are the one playing syntax by claiming we never run 4 WR sets with no TE lined up  next to Hart.

If you can really learn everything just by watching the games then it should be very simple to answer my question about which RTs in the league are better able to "play on an island" than Hart.

[*Synric*]

(02-18-2021, 04:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Fred is always looking for numbers and stats rather than watching the games. I saw the same thing as Joelist saw.

TE's mostly Sample lining up next to Hart a lot. Would be nice to have a RT that can block on an island.

Hart is not as bad as some people say and he has gotten better every year but he is not a top RT like we need.

Hart is also getting paid very well, a little too well especially if we moved him inside to Guard as some have wanted.

He is a pretty good run blocker.

I just think we brought in new Guards last year and they struggled, this could change under Pollack and an entire
year in the system. Decent Guards are easier to find than top Tackles. I think Jonah could be a top Tackle but if we
draft Sewell I think he would be on the right side and Hart is being paid too much to be a backup IMO.

Both Joelist and Fredtoast are wrong....

With Burrow the Bengals ran alot of 5 man man protections leaving the offensive line on an island but Hart was one of the worst in pass blockers during that period giving up a ton of pressures and having one of the worst pass block win percentages in the NFL.

[Joelist]

Actually I said "as the season went on". I am aware Burrow wanted to use 5 man protections but even then as he got clobbered game after game we started having the RB / TE inline more. Unfortunately the Guard play was still abhorrent and Burrow got hurt eventually.

My point was simple - unless we have both Tackles able to pass block on an island taking someone like Pitts is pointless as he would have to stay inline constantly. If we still are trusting Hart then go Sewell or if he is taken maybe Chase.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-18-2021, 08:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I watch the games and Hart does not "always" need help.  

Now you are the one playing syntax by claiming we never run 4 WR sets with no TE lined up  next to Hart.

If you can really learn everything just by watching the games then it should be very simple to answer my question about which RTs in the league are better able to "play on an island" than Hart.

Please re-read.  I never spoke a single word about 4 WR sets.  That's just you putting false arguments out there.

And again, you keep adding "never" to posts, when the one you were quoting absolutely did not contain the word never.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2021, 12:03 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And again, you keep adding "never" to posts, when the one you were quoting absolutely did not contain the word never.

This is getting ridiculous.  You used the term "seemingly always" to describe him getting help, so the opposit of that would be that he was never blocking by himslef.

Instead of playing word games just someone please flat out tell me how often Hart got help compared to other NFL RTs.  It is a simple question.  If you can  not answer it then say so instead of picking nits with how I ask the question.

I see lots of other OTs getting help from TEs and I see plays where Hart does not get help.  All I am asking is how Hart compares with other RTs regarding how often he is "on an island" because from what I see Hart does not get help any more often than other NFL RTs.  And that is the problem with people who claim they know everything from "watching the games".  They usually don't really know anything.  Instead they just see what they want to see.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(02-18-2021, 06:36 PM)Joelist Wrote: The Guard situation was weird last year. MJ was disastrously bad, so was Calhoun and so was Redmond. Spain fell into our laps out of the proverbial sky and when they put him at Guard instead of Tackle (where they had to a couple of games because of injuries) things got better. And when XSF got back they improved more. So I would like to keep them both AND add another truly NFL capable Guard as well as a RT who can actually play on an island on passing downs. If we drop that I become a member of the Pitts fan club - otherwise I have to stick with OT.

Calhoun only played 11 snaps for us!

Fred Johnson and Billy Price will have played more snaps than him at guard last year. Guard is definitely a position where we not only need to upgrade but we also need to ensure some depth.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-19-2021, 11:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is getting ridiculous.  You used the term "seemingly always" to describe him getting help, so the opposit of that would be that he was never blocking by himslef.

Actually, using the term "seemingly" implies an opinion or perspective, the word "never" is taking it to an absolute.

[Joelist]

(02-19-2021, 11:41 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Calhoun only played 11 snaps for us!

Fred Johnson and Billy Price will have played more snaps than him at guard last year. Guard is definitely a position where we not only need to upgrade but we also need to ensure some depth.

Exactly, the fact that I even needed to mention Calhoun speaks volumes. Our Guard room after XSF and Spain is awful.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-19-2021, 03:08 PM)Joelist Wrote: Our Guard room is awful.

Fixed it for you.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2021, 08:38 PM)Synric Wrote: Both Joelist and Fredtoast are wrong....

With Burrow the Bengals ran alot of 5 man man protections leaving the offensive line on an island but Hart was one of the worst in pass blockers during that period giving up a ton of pressures and having one of the worst pass block win percentages in the NFL.

It really is just this simple, Hart is not good at pass pro. In fact he leans hard towards bad. Why Fred is determined to defend him I have no idea ?

Moreover the bulk of our Olinemen are backup level/spot starters at best. Hart amonmg them.

[*bfine32*]

Green Bay has cut Ricky Wagner. Dude had 608 snaps last year gave up 1 sack and 0 penalties. PFF rated him 77 and that ESPN stat that Fred posted had him #8 in the NFL in pass block win rate.

Sign him ASAP

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-19-2021, 07:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Green Bay has cut Ricky Wagner. Dude had 608 snaps last year gave up 1 sack and 0 penalties. PFF rated him 77 and that ESPN stat that Fred posted had him #8 in the NFL in pass block win rate.

Sign him ASAP

No doubt

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2021, 06:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It really is just this simple, Hart is not good at pass pro. In fact he leans hard towards bad. Why Fred is determined to defend him I have no idea ?

In 2019 Hart was in the top half of OTs in pass protection per snap no matter how you measure it (sacks, pressures, holding penalties, ect)

Even though I have not seen the stats on pressures for 2020 he again had had very few sacks allowed or holding penalties in 2020.

He is far from elite, and I would not mind if he was upgraded.  But he is not as bad as most people claim and it will not be that easy to upgrade him.


And the reason I say these things is because they are facts.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-18-2021, 08:38 PM)Synric Wrote: Both Joelist and Fredtoast are wrong....

With Burrow the Bengals ran alot of 5 man man protections leaving the offensive line on an island but Hart was one of the worst in pass blockers during that period giving up a ton of pressures and having one of the worst pass block win percentages in the NFL.

Yeah, Hart is a bad pass blocker. Shouldn't be paying him that much money even if he has improved some. 

It just isn't good enough. Bring in Daryl Williams or Ricky Wagner and let Hart go would be my move at Tackle in FA.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-18-2021, 08:38 PM)Synric Wrote: Both Joelist and Fredtoast are wrong....

With Burrow the Bengals ran alot of 5 man man protections leaving the offensive line on an island but Hart was one of the worst in pass blockers during that period giving up a ton of pressures and having one of the worst pass block win percentages in the NFL.

Yep. Hart is not "solid" he's a below average, at best, tackle and needs to be replaced. 

He was the 40th rated OT in overall grades last year, 48th graded pass blocker and 29th rated run blocker. That's OTs playing at least 50% of max snaps for the year. 

He gave up the 4th most pressures total and was 52nd (out of 55 that qualified) in pass block efficiency @ 95.4. 

Flat out, they guy is not good.

[fredtoast]

(02-20-2021, 06:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Hart was 52nd (out of 55 that qualified) in pass block efficiency @ 95.4. 

I wish I had access to all these PFF stats.  It seems strange that Hart had almost the same pass blocking efficiency rating in 2019 (96.7) but finished in the top half of the league (28 out of 58) 

[fredtoast]

(02-20-2021, 06:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He was the 40th rated OT in overall grades last year, 48th graded pass blocker and 29th rated run blocker. That's OTs playing at least 50% of max snaps for the year. 

How many OTs played at least 50% of max snaps last year?

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-22-2021, 06:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I wish I had access to all these PFF stats.  It seems strange that Hart had almost the same pass blocking efficiency rating in 2019 (96.7) but finished in the top half of the league (28 out of 58) 

In 2020, the difference between the "best" and the "worst" was 98.9 - 94.2. The difference in 2019 was 99.3 - 93.8

The "average" in 2020 was 97.2 (Jonah was there)
In 2019 it was 96.7
2% makes a huge difference. The difference between 96.7 and 95.4 is big.

(02-22-2021, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How many OTs played at least 50% of max snaps last year?

2019 - 58
2020 - 55

[bengalsboy]

(02-04-2021, 02:34 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Seriously guys. What are you two smoking?

Exactly.Sewell would be a day one starter.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-18-2021, 04:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Fred is always looking for numbers and stats rather than watching the games. I saw the same thing as Joelist saw.

TE's mostly Sample lining up next to Hart a lot. Would be nice to have a RT that can block on an island.

Hart is not as bad as some people say and he has gotten better every year but he is not a top RT like we need.

Hart is also getting paid very well, a little too well especially if we moved him inside to Guard as some have wanted.

He is a pretty good run blocker.

I just think we brought in new Guards last year and they struggled, this could change under Pollack and an entire
year in the system. Decent Guards are easier to find than top Tackles. I think Jonah could be a top Tackle but if we
draft Sewell I think he would be on the right side and Hart is being paid too much to be a backup IMO.

well I have the NFL ticket and I saw many TEs, h-backs or slots line up close to the RT.. and more and more teams like Bengals go without a TE so that means your tackles are on an island more and more.. so unless you can actually give stats of plays with tackles on an island and their result compared to others.. your post holds no water.. just opinion with bias..