Housh gets it

[fredtoast]

(02-24-2021, 01:55 AM)Whatever Wrote: Tee has 2 100 yard games and 0 1000 yard seasons.  To call him a #1 WR at this point is a massive stretch.  He may develop into a #1, but he isn't there yet and hasn't proven it on the field.

(02-24-2021, 02:43 AM)Whatever Wrote: He was 7th in the league in targets, for Pete's sake.  He was 25th in receiving yards.  You can get pretty much any competent WR to 1000 yards if you force them enough targets.  

Your circular logic is hilarious.

When you want to bash Higgins you say that total yards are what matter, but when you want to bash Boyd you claim that total yards are meaningless  because "yards per target" is what really matters.

Last year Higgins put up #1 WR numbers (top 32) by whatever metric you want to use.  He was 26th in receiving yards and 19th in receiving tds, and among the 59 WRs with at least 75 targets he was 19th in yards per reception and 27th in yards per target.

His numbers are even more impressive when you include the fact that he only had 35 yards in his first two games as he fought to work into the starting rotation and zero yards in his final game due to injury.  If you project his other 13 games over a full season he would have had over 1100 receiving yards.

I am not placing Higgins among the elite WRs in the league, but he is a solid #1.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(02-24-2021, 02:11 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: How in the world can a guy get over a 1000 yards when he is the only target you have to cover and still not be viewed as a high-end/top WR???

Seriously... not many guys in the league would have posted 1000 yards with the garbage that was the 2019 team... but Boyd does and people question him?

Garbage is right. Garbage time might be the culprit. It seems like every week during the season you can point to teams who put up tons of yards in a losing effort. 

Your argument seems to be that because the WRs put up yards, the WR corps is set. By that same logic I could say that because the WRs put up yards, the offense is set. I guess the Bengals should try to draft all defense and only spend on FAs on that side of the ball. The WRs put up yards so the offense must be set. 

[Whatever]

(02-24-2021, 01:38 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Brandon Allen isnt better than Nick Foles. Not saying Nick Foles is good, but Allen isnt better.

And you're acting like Dalton is a scrub.

Foles and Dalton are considered the 2 best back ups in the league along with Mariota and Winston

Bengals receivers once Burrow went down had to deal with low end back ups, and a worse offensive line than the bears and even the cowboys.

Higgins. Legit WR1 (until proven otherwise)


Boyd. Top 5 slot receiver

Cooper and Robinson=1114 and 1250 yards with large chunks of the season played with backup QB's

Higgins=on pace for 1006 yards if he had his QB1 all year

How do arrive at Higgins is a WR1 until proven otherwise based on that?

Even funnier is all the "Auden Tate would have had much better production if Andy Dalton didn't suck" posts this past off-season.

[Destro]

Boyd and Higgins are better at their positions, IMO, than anyone on our O-Line.

We are not the only team that wants good O-Line players, including teams that are considered otherwise "good." Yes, there are a lot of reasons, but I'm sure KC would have liked better/more O-line depth in the Super Bowl. Now, if I'm a good to great lineman, and I have a choice of playing for KC or Cincy, I'm going for who can get me closer to a ring.

Before anyone does the money talks thing, it's not like Cincy is the make it rain team, and when these so-called "better than average" Bengals players want to be paid better than average, we will have to pay them, too, or they walk. If Burrow is all that he is cracked up to be, we got this rookie deal with him now, and he is as cheap as he is going to be. Pretty much this is the one shot.

[Murdock2420]

(02-24-2021, 08:34 AM)Jason_NC Wrote: But the draft is?  The draft is even less a sure thing.  The guy you want may not last until your pick.  And if he does, he may not be a very good pro.  This team has demonstrated that frequently, especially with their recent OL picks.

The draft is a sure thing in that you pick the guy and he is on your team.

Not, he visits and uses your team for leverage to make more money from a team he actually wants to play for.

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-24-2021, 03:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: Cooper and Robinson=1114 and 1250 yards with large chunks of the season played with backup QB's

Higgins=on pace for 1006 yards if he had his QB1 all year

How do arrive at Higgins is a WR1 until proven otherwise based on that?

Even funnier is all the "Auden Tate would have had much better production if Andy Dalton didn't suck" posts this past off-season.

How did you get 1006? After 8 games, he had 603 and 4tds. 

If you can get 1206 yds and 8 tds from a rookie 2nd round pick with a rookie throwing to him behind a really bad line, that's a pretty good thing. Especially when Baltimore and Pitt are on your schedule for 4 games and AJ Green was drawing a lot of the QBs attention and throws. 

[Whatever]

(02-24-2021, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your circular logic is hilarious.

When you want to bash Higgins you say that total yards are what matter, but when you want to bash Boyd you claim that total yards are meaningless  because "yards per target" is what really matters.

Last year Higgins put up #1 WR numbers (top 32) by whatever metric you want to use.  He was 26th in receiving yards and 19th in receiving tds, and among the 59 WRs with at least 75 targets he was 19th in yards per reception and 27th in yards per target.

His numbers are even more impressive when you include the fact that he only had 35 yards in his first two games as he fought to work into the starting rotation and zero yards in his final game due to injury.  If you project his other 13 games over a full season he would have had over 1100 receiving yards.

I am not placing Higgins among the elite WRs in the league, but he is a solid #1.

Your ability to create strawman arguments is hilarious.

Since you can't be bothered to read anything more than a few sentences, I'll dumb it way down for you.  WR1's all have 1000 yard seasons.  Not every WR with 1000 yard seasons is a WR1.

[Whatever]

(02-24-2021, 10:45 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How did you get 1006? After 8 games, he had 603 and 4tds. 

If you can get 1206 yds and 8 tds from a rookie 2nd round pick with a rookie throwing to him behind a really bad line, that's a pretty good thing. Especially when Baltimore and Pitt are on your schedule for 4 games and AJ Green was drawing a lot of the QBs attention and throws. 

He had 629 yards in the 10 games he and Burrow played.  He was active, but not targeted in week 1 vs SD.  He had 3 catches for 26 yards against WFT where Burrow went down.  

I'm in no way saying Tee is a bad pick or a bad player, but the idea that he's "a WR1 until proven otherwise" is silly to me.  He hasn't proven he's a WR1, yet.  I'm happy with his play as a rookie, apart from drops and fumbles, but he isn't at that level and may not get there.  

[Frank Booth]

(02-24-2021, 11:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: He had 629 yards in the 10 games he and Burrow played.  He was active, but not targeted in week 1 vs SD.  He had 3 catches for 26 yards against WFT where Burrow went down.  

I'm in no way saying Tee is a bad pick or a bad player, but the idea that he's "a WR1 until proven otherwise" is silly to me.  He hasn't proven he's a WR1, yet.  I'm happy with his play as a rookie, apart from drops and fumbles, but he isn't at that level and may not get there.  

He wasnt targeted week 1

he had 3 catches against arguably the best d-line in football and playing half the game with a back up

Hmmm Yep.

Proof that Higgins isnt a wr1. Mhmm sure

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-24-2021, 11:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: He had 629 yards in the 10 games he and Burrow played.  He was active, but not targeted in week 1 vs SD.  He had 3 catches for 26 yards against WFT where Burrow went down.  

I'm in no way saying Tee is a bad pick or a bad player, but the idea that he's "a WR1 until proven otherwise" is silly to me.  He hasn't proven he's a WR1, yet.  I'm happy with his play as a rookie, apart from drops and fumbles, but he isn't at that level and may not get there.  

I'd agree he's inconsistent on catches and i don't think i quite understood before...but i don't think i'd say he's a #1 until proven otherwise. I think it would be more accurate to say he's potentially a good #1. 

I checked out the first 8 games for some rookies this past season and here's how they stacked up--granted Lamb was without Dak after game 5. 

Jeudy - 484 yds 2 tds  61 tgts
Lamb - 524 yds 2 tds  61 tgts
Jefferson- 627 yds 3 tds  44 tgts
Higgins - 603 yds 4 tds  61 tgts
Claypool- 444 yds 5 tds  47 tgts

It would have been real interesting to see how he would have ended up had Burrow not been injured. 

[Daddy-O]

(02-20-2021, 02:00 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: At this point, with teams setting up to tag Tackles, who is out there that is going to come here and be an upgrade at tackle?

There is a need for one tackle, 1 maybe 2 guards if Spain re-signs, and for a bit we have a hole at C.

I just don't get why anyone wants Pitts or Chase... 

We just watched a shit O-line end Burrow's season. So, Pitts or Chase will be great with Ryan Finley under center...

Also just saw the best offense around with an unreal weapon at WR, possibly the best TE and an amazing QB get shut down due to a shit O-line.

They could get 5 new players between the draft and FA for the line and it wouldn't be a waste as even Jonah has injury concerns.

Sewell is the target. If he isn't there, move back to get one of the other two big time Tackle prospects.

Chase and Pitts are luxury items. We have a QB coming off a knee surgery. I keep hearing all this take care of it in free agency stuff. Well, there is only so much money especially after they most likely tag Lawson or WJIII.  

O-line, O-line and more O-line is the correct answer. If Burrow is half the QB he is supposed to be, he should be able to turn 4th rounders in to stars. Plenty of other QBs have had much more success with much less in the weapons department.

They need to take care of the O-line as much as possible in free agency to give them the flexibility to do whatever they want and take the BPA at #5. 

Frank Pollack is the wild card.  Based on his history here I trust him to get the line together, given a little help in free agency.

A Burrow / Chase reunite intrigues me and would set our skilled players up for the next decade.  Although I doubt Chase falls to 5.

[XenoMorph]

(02-25-2021, 10:03 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: They need to take care of the O-line as much as possible in free agency to give them the flexibility to do whatever they want and take the BPA at #5. 

Frank Pollack is the wild card.  Based on his history here I trust him to get the line together, given a little help in free agency.

A Burrow / Chase reunite intrigues me and would set our skilled players up for the next decade.  Although I doubt Chase falls to 5.

if WR and OL go before us....  There will probly be a team chopping at the bits to trade up for a QB we could use alot of players so it might be a great opportunity to move back and grab picks. with this being a very deep Draft class for OL (so they say)

[*Synric*]

With AJ Green gone it will be interesting to see how Tee Higgins handles opposing defenses keying in on him with their better defensive backs like Denzel Ward and Marcus Peters. I don't like the terms #1 or #2 receiver but Tee looks like he's gonna develop into a solid X. The Bengals have a Slot and an X but they haven't had a good Z since Marvin Jones left.

[Murdock2420]

(02-25-2021, 10:55 AM)Synric Wrote: With AJ Green gone it will be interesting to see how Tee Higgins handles opposing defenses keying in on him with their better defensive backs like Denzel Ward and Marcus Peters. I don't like the terms #1 or #2 receiver but Tee looks like he's gonna develop into a solid X. The Bengals have a Slot and an X but they haven't had a good Z since Marvin Jones left.

Well, I mean he is a FA.... so...

[*ochocincos*]

(02-20-2021, 02:23 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Like Bilbo said, it’s not make or break at #5. There will likely be some good options at OT in the 2nd (Eichenberg, Leatherwood, etc), and definitely some good IOL options. I just don’t see the value being there at 5 for any of them other than Sewell. If they trade back that’s a different story then maybe Darrisaw, Slater, Cosmi, etc. Depends on the offers though.

As far as FA goes, I almost want them to focus on OG more than OT anyway. Likely better options for top tier guys, and it’s a bigger need for us anyway. Yes, Jonah is not off to a great start as far as staying healthy, but I’m not ready to call the guy Eifert 2.0 yet either. And he looked good when he was out there. I’d love to replace Hart but not at the expense of reaching with a top 5 pick. Either trade back (again we might not get a offer worth it) or take one in the 2nd.

What happened to KC in the playoffs can happen to any team. They just got hit with a bunch of injuries to the OL. No team in the league has the depth to overcome 2-3 starters going down all at once. But they don’t even make these Super Bowl runs without those elite weapons though. You need both. If all it took was an elite OL the Cowboys would have won it all at least once during those years they had studs across their OL.

I want Pitts or Chase (if Sewell is gone) because they’ll be the BPA, and will make our offense much better. And the #5 pick alone is not going to ensure Burrow is protected no matter who they take.

Unless you’re getting one of Sewell, Slater, or Darrisaw, all the other OTs are about the same tier and a bunch of good ones will be there in Rd 2. Don’t force OL pick at 5.
With that said, don’t wait until Day 3 to get new OL either if you’re looking for an upgrade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-25-2021, 11:39 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Well, I mean he is a FA.... so...

I was a huge Marvin Jones fan, but hard pass on bringing him back. He’s on the wrong side of 30 (not ideal for a speed guy) and missed a decent amount of games both here and in Detroit.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-23-2021, 11:21 PM)Destro Wrote: Yeah, the issue is that FA is an "if," since we are battling other teams, plus the player themselves has a lot of flexibility. The draft tends to get you the player who is available at the spot and we just know 4 players will go a we will get one after that. IN FA, we may not get anyone we want, for any kind of reason. 

Kill it in FA, yeah, the options at #5 spring open. I just have a feeling that will not happen and the best we will be able to do is in the draft. 

I am going off of recent past. Last Offseason we went all out in FA on Defense. The FO has said they will do the same this 
year to protect Burrow. We will see, I just hope they follow through on what they said. They would be completely idiotic not
to after seeing what happened to Burrow and then saying what they said.

(02-24-2021, 12:30 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Exactly.

Everyone is talking about FA like it is a sure thing. The line was crap coming into last year too and they signed one guy in XSF. Top guys have to want to be here, and on top of that, we have to sign our own guys that will eat into the cap.

I could see FA getting us Thuney since it actually seems like he'd be happy to be in the area again. That still leaves a need at T and G. And then with the odds being WJIII is gone, we now need a starting CB... which you don't want to wait on outside round 2 or 3.

Just, too many holes to waste a pick on a luxury not a need.

FA is not a sure thing but neither is the Draft. I think the FO and Taylor had more faith in Turner than they should have to 
coach up the O-line. Big mistake but we were devastated by injury on the Defense last season with our Free Agents so it 
didn't come to fruition. We don't have to go all out on Defense this year, re-sign Lawson, add another pass rusher in FA and
get another one or two in the Draft.

But go all in to protect Burrow is the #1 priority and EVERYONE knows it.

(02-24-2021, 08:34 AM)Jason_NC Wrote: But the draft is?  The draft is even less a sure thing.  The guy you want may not last until your pick.  And if he does, he may not be a very good pro.  This team has demonstrated that frequently, especially with their recent OL picks.

So true, the Draft is a crapshoot man, always is. I don't care if we get Sewell, even he is not a sure thing.

Have to hedge our bets by adding at least 2 O-lineman in FA.

Joe Thuney and Daryl Williams/Ricky Wagner would be great.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-22-2021, 12:06 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I have to wonder if getting Burrow comfortable under center would lead to more running plays being called. It was like they just didn't want to run out of shotgun much at all, and far too often, went empty set which is like telling the defense, no need to worry about the run, just bull rush.

Better play calling, better protection, and more balance. Have to see improvement there next season or it will just be a repeat of this year.

That one baffles me as well when it comes to Mixon.
In his final year at Oklahoma, he has ZERO touches when lined up behind the center, all of his work came from shotgun formation. So you have the perfect guy that can work in that situation. It's also a better formation as it forces a defender to back off the line.

But why they don't run it is baffling to me

[Essex Johnson]

(02-24-2021, 03:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: Cooper and Robinson=1114 and 1250 yards with large chunks of the season played with backup QB's

Higgins=on pace for 1006 yards if he had his QB1 all year

How do arrive at Higgins is a WR1 until proven otherwise based on that?

Even funnier is all the "Auden Tate would have had much better production if Andy Dalton didn't suck" posts this past off-season.

So What is a #1... in the NFL today #1 WRs like we think in the past mean are less and less.. today with multiple sets, you don;t really have that many true #1 and you have teams doing well without the figure WRs... and yardage is being done by many players I don;t think we just consider #1 type WR and that is my point... I think TDs today is the big difference that you see compared to a decade ago.


Look at these numbers
2019-20   10 WRs 10 or more TDS and with WRs with over 1,100 only 5 of 29 had 10 or more TDs
2009-10-  21 Wrs 10 or more TDs and with WRs with over 1,1000 13 out of 24 had 10 or more

What we are seeing now is more and more WRs getting yards single digit TDs and more yards with the increase passing attacks... 

Just as the TE as more of a WR is evolving in todays game so is less emphasis on #1 WRs and more 2/3 set of WRs getting TDS and Yards

[Whatever]

(03-01-2021, 08:57 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So What is a #1... in the NFL today #1 WRs like we think in the past mean are less and less.. today with multiple sets, you don;t really have that many true #1 and you have teams doing well without the figure WRs... and yardage is being done by many players I don;t think we just consider #1 type WR and that is my point... I think TDs today is the big difference that you see compared to a decade ago.


Look at these numbers
2019-20   10 WRs 10 or more TDS and with WRs with over 1,100 only 5 of 29 had 10 or more TDs
2009-10-  21 Wrs 10 or more TDs and with WRs with over 1,1000 13 out of 24 had 10 or more

What we are seeing now is more and more WRs getting yards single digit TDs and more yards with the increase passing attacks... 

Just as the TE as more of a WR is evolving in todays game so is less emphasis on #1 WRs and more 2/3 set of WRs getting TDS and Yards

The SB champs had 3 former All Pro WR's and a former All Pro TE.  The AFC champions had an All Pro WR and All Pro TE.  The AFC runner ups had 2 All Pro WR's.  The NFC runner ups had an All Pro WR.  Looking at the NFC Divisional round losers, one had a former All Pro WR and the other had 2 WR's finish in the Top 25 in receiving yards.  In the AFC, one of the divisional round losers had 2 multi time Pro Bowl WR's, a multi time Pro Bowl TE, and a multi time Pro Bowl RB.  The other had a Pro Bowl TE.  Out of 14 playoff teams this year, 12 had at least one Pro Bowl WR, TE, or RB and only one of those won a playoff game.  If you want to shoot for another classic Bengals one and done, ignore the skill positions.  If you want to actually try to shoot for a championship, we need at least one elite weapon, more likely two.