Will We See Any Cuts Before FA Opens?

[fredtoast]

(03-13-2021, 12:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This is what I would do If I were the GM, possibly around 30 million in cuts to add to 44 million we have to spend now = 74 million - 10 million for draft picks

74 million sounds like a lot until you realize we would have to replace 7 starters and a few key backups.

And too many people just say "I would then sign.  .  .  " but the problem is that many times the guys they want to sign are not interested in playing here.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-13-2021, 12:51 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So, yes cap savings in 2021 is more important than cap savings in 2022 based on this situation. Having said that, I hope they trade him for a 6th round pick and lose his entire salary with zero dead cap hit in 2021 or 2022.

Fwiw, they can move other money around to make the difference between 5.2 mil vs. 2.6 + 2.6 mil negligible. 

It can be as easy taking the way you spread another players signing bonus around and moving 2.6 mil off the books this year and onto 2022, thus leaving the totals exactly the same as if you cut Geno Atkins post June 1st.

Also, if they trade Geno those cap hits don't come off the books.  That dead cap comes the way of his signing bonus, which does not transfer over to another team.  Cut or trade, those numbers remain the same.

[kalibengal]

(03-11-2021, 01:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We don't know anything.  But I would think the team would know by now if they want to move from certain guys.  You don't exactly need a replacement player in tow to know whether or not you want to pay Bernard 5 mil, or Uzomah 6 mi, or Hart 7 mil.

To each their own, but the more time passes the more I don't think we're going to see the number of names come off the books as we would like.  Which I guess wouldn't be a surprise, this team hates eating money.  It may be one or two that get axed, but I have a feeling we're going to get the majority of these guys back.

I can see how they would approach this conservatively but agreed..if there are slam dunk guys like Geno that you know you can cut and sign someone else for equal or less and is likely better and healthier.....just do it now and let one of your alltime greats test the market at the start.   

[kevin]

(03-11-2021, 01:19 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Curious to hear from you on if you think we will see any cuts before next Weds (FA officially opens).

Fwiw, I'm always of the position that if you know for a fact a player is not in your future plans that you should always cut them prior to FA.  It does right by the player in giving them an equal chance with other FA's to get signed and to set the market.  If you dump a guy weeks after FA opens he's hitting a market that's now cheaper, and many teams will have already filled needs.

Plus, what benefit is there in waiting if you know the guy isn't going to be around?

I'll be interested to see if we have any cuts coming up.  If players aren't cut before Weds. then I have to believe we're still considering keeping them and it may be dependent on the market and their potential replacements.

If you see names like Atkins, Hart, Bernard, Uzomah, Hopkins, Price, and XSF all still here come Weds. I would have to think they all still have a very good chance to stick.  In fact, you're probably not going to see more than one or two of them get released later during FA, if any at all.  Some may not be purged until camp.

What do you guys think?  Are you suprised we haven't moved on from anyone yet?  Do you want us to make cuts before next week?  Anyone you'll be shocked by still being here this time next week?

Over the years I have read that there is a time when it is cheaper to cut players.  I remember it being after the Draft, maybe in May. The NFL had a time period when cutting most players did not have as much of a salary cap hit and had a cost saving side to it. I remember it came up once when Burfict was having some problems and this after the Draft period of cutting players came open, and reporters were saying now is the time.  So I think Bengals will cut some players by just letting them go in free agency, even if they can keep them cheap.  

I think the real question is do the Bengals resign anybody Monday or Tuesday before Free Agency Wednesday.   This is March.  Free Agency and the Draft in April. I think in May there may be some cuts if NFL still has this period where it is cheaper for teams to cut some players, which Mike Brown would like if it is cheaper then. 

So I would think NO on cutting players before Wednesday. They are going to be cutting players starting Wednesday anyway.  Ross is cutting players. He was drafted in 1st Round under Lewis.  Taylor got to where he didn't suit him up when healthy.  A healthy Ross not even put on roster to play if needed on game day, in street clothes. I would call that a cut of a player they do not want coming Wednesday as he becomes a free agent and Bengals no longer have to pay him and no cap hit. If the Bengals sign no one before Wednesday, 22 players are no longer on Bengals payroll Wednesday. That is the same as a cut, but with no cap hit. If Bengals would resign any, it would be a whole new contract, often a cheaper contract. Andre Smith was let go as an expensive top pick, but came back on the cheap a couple times.

My gut feeling is newer coach Taylor would love to bring in new players that he feels fit his system. All coaches want to do that. I think Taylor would love to rebuild the offense and defense from what he was handed in 2019, but it takes a few years due to high paid contracts needing to run out. 22 players are off the payroll Wednesday, mostly Coach Lewis players.

[Wes Mantooth]

What in the hell is going on? We've yet to cut a single player. (I refuse to count BJ Finney, who was an add-on to trade to make financials work, and carried zero in dead cap space for 2021)

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the approach. I know people will hit me with "why would you cut someone without their replacement" but teams cut guys all the time without a replacement inked.

You take the savings and make a plan of who to target and how to allocate the money. You don't have to have a specific replacement for each and every guy to know that some of these players aren't worth anywhere near their current cap hit.

Geno Atkins (9.6 mil), Gio Bernard (4.1 mil), Bobby Hart (5.8 mil), CJ Uzomah (5.2 mil), Tre Hopkins (4.3 mil), XSF (2.6 mil). Billy Price (2 mil), Josh Tupou (2.1 mil) .... There's 35 million in potential 2021 cap savings right there.

I'm not saying every single one of these guys should be cut, but I'm really curious as to why we can't identify at least a couple of them as people that have no place here in 2021. How hard is it to come to conclusion, that no matter what the market it is, Gio Bernard's 4 million dollars can be better spent elsewhere?

When you couple the lack of cuts with Hobson playing his usual games (we're spent the majority of the money) it really makes you wonder if the majority, if not all of these guys will back.

I'll never understand why this team won't embrace a rebuild. And remember a rebuild doesn't necessairly mean you're doomed to fail. It's just means you "rebuild" or overhaul your roster.

Geno Atkins should have been gone two years ago (at the trade deadline when we were 0-8 in 2019). So should have Dalton and Dunlap. So should have AJ if it could have worked. We ended up getting nothing for Andy, a 7th round pick for Dunlap and nothing for Atkins. You would think we would have learned our lesson. (You can't hold on to aging and expensive players if you're team is in the middle of a rebuild)

But we didn't learn our lesson. We then tagged AJ the very next offseason, making him the 2nd highest paid receiver in the league. How'd that work out? Yet we still sit here with Geno Atkins, all of this time, and all of these mistakes later. Why? Why are people actually on board with keeping him, even if he restructures?

We haven't won with any of the above guys. In fact, we've been terrible for quite some time. None of the above players are above average, and most aren't even average. What exactly is the plan here? Keep the whole gang together and run it back again?

Just remember when you see the bulk of these guys back what the savings could have been. Go ahead and play with the math on some of them, and ask yourself if we could have found a better use of these dollars.

I'll end my rant here, but this it total bullshit.

[SErebel11]

(03-17-2021, 01:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What in the hell is going on?  We've yet to cut a single player.  (I refuse to count BJ Finney, who was an add-on to trade to make financials work, and carried zero in dead cap space for 2021)

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the approach.  I know people will hit me with "why would you cut someone without their replacement" but teams cut guys all the time without a replacement inked.  

You take the savings and make a plan of who to target and how to allocate the money.  You don't have to have a specific replacement for each and every guy to know that some of these players aren't worth anywhere near their current cap hit.

Geno Atkins (9.6 mil), Gio Bernard (4.1 mil), Bobby Hart (5.8 mil), CJ Uzomah (5.2 mil), Tre Hopkins (4.3 mil), XSF (2.6 mil). Billy Price (2 mil), Josh Tupou (2.1 mil) ....  There's 35 million in potential 2021 cap savings right there.

I'm not saying every single one of these guys should be cut, but I'm really curious as to why we can't identify at least a couple of them as people that have no place here in 2021.  How hard is it to come to conclusion, that no matter what the market it is, Gio Bernard's 4 million dollars can be better spent elsewhere?

When you couple the lack of cuts with Hobson playing his usual games (we're spent the majority of the money) it really makes you wonder if the majority, if not all of these guys will back.

I'll never understand why this team won't embrace a rebuild.  And remember a rebuild doesn't necessairly mean you're doomed to fail.  It's just means you "rebuild" or overhaul your roster.

Geno Atkins should have been gone two years ago (at the trade deadline when we were 0-8 in 2019).  So should have Dalton and Dunlap.  So should have AJ if it could have worked.  We ended up getting nothing for Andy, a 7th round pick for Dunlap and nothing for Atkins.  You would think we would have learned our lesson. (You can't hold on to aging and expensive players if you're team is in the middle of a rebuild)

But we didn't learn our lesson.  We then tagged AJ the very next offseason, making him the 2nd highest paid receiver in the league.  How'd that work out?  Yet we still sit here with Geno Atkins, all of this time, and all of these mistakes later.  Why?  Why are people actually on board with keeping him, even if he restructures?

We haven't won with any of the above guys.  In fact, we've been terrible for quite some time.  None of the above players are above average, and most aren't even average.  What exactly is the plan here?  Keep the whole gang together and run it back again?

Just remember when you see the bulk of these guys back what the savings could have been.  Go ahead and play with the math on some of them, and ask yourself if we could have found a better use of these dollars.

I'll end my rant here, but this it total bullshit.

Atkins + Hart or Uzomah would have nearly paid for a Lawson's franchise tag.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-17-2021, 01:54 PM)SErebel11 Wrote: Atkins + Hart or Uzomah would have nearly paid for a Lawson's franchise tag.

Or for bringing in a good OL that the fans would have been excited about.

I would bet you if you asked anyone if they would prefer to have Atkins, Hart, and/or Uzomah vs Thuney and a drafted replacement for Atkins, nearly everyone would have said the latter.

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2021, 01:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Geno Atkins (9.6 mil), Gio Bernard (4.1 mil), Bobby Hart (5.8 mil), CJ Uzomah (5.2 mil), Tre Hopkins (4.3 mil), XSF (2.6 mil). Billy Price (2 mil), Josh Tupou (2.1 mil) ....  There's 35 million in potential 2021 cap savings right there.

35 million in savings and 8 holes to fill.

Many fans believe that the Bengals can jut go out and pick and choose whatever free agent they want to sign.  but just because some player signs with another team at a certain price that does not mean the Bengals could have gotten him.

BY the time you fill the 8 holes created by these players you are not going to have as much savings as you think.  Geno is the only one where you potentially have big savings.  Bobby Hart was the 40th ranked OT by PFF and will be the 32nd highest paid OT.  So you are not guaranteed to get a much better player cheaper.  You might save a million each on Gio and CJ, but the guys you sign for cheaper are not going to upgrade the roster very much.  The others are already at close to market value.

So why take the risk of cutting that many players while not even knowing for sure that you can get better players at a lower price.  What if we cut Trae and no other starting OC wants to sign here for less?

[bengaloo]

(03-17-2021, 02:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 35 million in savings and 8 holes to fill.

Many fans believe that the Bengals can jut go out and pick and choose whatever free agent they want to sign.  but just because some player signs with another team at a certain price that does not mean the Bengals could have gotten him.

BY the time you fill the 8 holes created by these players you are not going to have as much savings as you think.  Geno is the only one where you potentially have big savings.  Bobby Hart was the 40th ranked OT by PFF and will be the 32nd highest paid OT.  So you are not guaranteed to get a much better player cheaper.  You might save a million each on Gio and CJ, but the guys you sign for cheaper are not going to upgrade the roster very much.  The others are already at close to market value.

So why take the risk of cutting that many players while not even knowing for sure that you can get better players at a lower price.  What if we cut Trae and no other starting OC wants to sign here for less?

I agree with this. We have to have players to have a roster to put on the field. FA is a two way street. You have to want a player and the player has to want to play for your team at the price you are willing to pay. We did make a run for Zeitler, but he didnt come here. We may have tried to sign other players also. But it has to line up on both sides. 

As far as Hart goes, I dont see us cutting him unless maybe after we draft Sewell, and Hart may be retained even then as a backup or insurance for a developing Sewel who sat out 2020 season. Ive been on the Hart hater bandwagon since we signed him, but I also recognize that he had his best season last year and looked better as the OG play next to him improved. We may keep him or cut him later, like the June 1st cuts. But right now if we cut him we have a big hole to fill because we dont have much depth on the OL either. Can we get a good RT to come here from FA? I hope so, but the list is getting thinner. My gut feeling says they are hoping to get Sewell or Slater. 

We could have all the cap space in the world, but there still have to be players to fill the roles we need them for and those players have to be willing to sign here. 

[Shake n Blake]

(03-17-2021, 02:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 35 million in savings and 8 holes to fill.

Many fans believe that the Bengals can jut go out and pick and choose whatever free agent they want to sign.  but just because some player signs with another team at a certain price that does not mean the Bengals could have gotten him.

BY the time you fill the 8 holes created by these players you are not going to have as much savings as you think.  Geno is the only one where you potentially have big savings.  Bobby Hart was the 40th ranked OT by PFF and will be the 32nd highest paid OT.  So you are not guaranteed to get a much better player cheaper.  You might save a million each on Gio and CJ, but the guys you sign for cheaper are not going to upgrade the roster very much.  The others are already at close to market value.

So why take the risk of cutting that many players while not even knowing for sure that you can get better players at a lower price.  What if we cut Trae and no other starting OC wants to sign here for less?

Geno Atkins - Gio Bernard - Bobby Hart - CJ Uzomah - Tre Hopkins - XSF - Billy Price - Josh Tupou

I know you like to play the role of resident Hobson on here, but with the way these guys have played, are they really producing a hole, Fred? They are literally bodies. Roster spots. Bottom tier players.

Geno might rebound some (he can only go up from 1 tackle). Bernard brings blocking and positive locker room presence. You could argue both would produce a minor hole...I guess. Those other guys could literally be replaced by mid/late round rookies and we wouldn't miss them.

I'm sure we could win 4 games without those guys. We might stumble on some diamond-in-the-rough rookie that actually upgrades those guys. They aren't good players. Frankly, they're bad players.

You could save a few million by cutting some of these guys, so why keep them when they are bottom tier?

[SErebel11]

(03-17-2021, 02:36 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I agree with this. We have to have players to have a roster to put on the field. FA is a two way street. You have to want a player and the player has to want to play for your team at the price you are willing to pay. We did make a run for Zeitler, but he didnt come here. We may have tried to sign other players also. But it has to line up on both sides. 

As far as Hart goes, I dont see us cutting him unless maybe after we draft Sewell, and Hart may be retained even then as a backup or insurance for a developing Sewel who sat out 2020 season. Ive been on the Hart hater bandwagon since we signed him, but I also recognize that he had his best season last year and looked better as the OG play next to him improved. We may keep him or cut him later, like the June 1st cuts. But right now if we cut him we have a big hole to fill because we dont have much depth on the OL either. Can we get a good RT to come here from FA? I hope so, but the list is getting thinner. My gut feeling says they are hoping to get Sewell or Slater. 

We could have all the cap space in the world, but there still have to be players to fill the roles we need them for and those players have to be willing to sign here. 

I agree with some of this but the access to improve your team also involves cuts. Cut all 8? No. Lawson was in house and neither Atkins nor Uzomah would draw their 2021 Bengals salary in free agency. Cutting those 2 would make a lot of sense and that is a chunk of change. It is also about maximizing your dollars. Franchising Lawson in this situation especially if they didn't want to dole out a huge contract due to injury concerns. He wasn't someone that would have have had to be willing to sign here.

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2021, 02:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Geno Atkins - Gio Bernard - Bobby Hart - CJ Uzomah - Tre Hopkins - XSF - Billy Price - Josh Tupou

I know you like to play the role of resident Hobson on here, but with the way these guys have played, are they really producing a hole, Fred? They are literally bodies. Roster spots. Bottom tier players.

You could save a few million by cutting some of these guys, so why keep them when they are bottom tier?

Because you can't afford a 53 man roster of all elite players.

Say we cut Trae Hopkins.  Who are we GUARANTEED to be able to sign that would be an upgrade for the same price or less?  Same for XFS, Price, and Tupou?

Too many of you just see names of players who signed for a certain price and claim we could have signed them for the same.  That just is not true.  

And when it comes to trying to save money on players making less than 3 million you are just as likely to sign a player who is worse than better.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-17-2021, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because you can't afford a 53 man roster of all elite players.

Say we cut Trae Hopkins.  Who are we GUARANTEED to be able to sign that would be an upgrade for the same price or less?  Same for XFS, Price, and Tupou?

Too many of you just see names of players who signed for a certain price and claim we could have signed them for the same.  That just is not true.  

And when it comes to trying to save money on players making less than 3 million you are just as likely to sign a player who is worse than better.

You can replace some of these guys with mid-late round draft picks. You can also shuffle in another player at lesser price that will produce just as poorly. They aren't good players or even average players. They are bad. Bottom-of-the-roster fluff. Easily replaceable with a body.

And fwiw, I'm not saying to cut them ALL. But why haven't we cut ANY of this dead weight? That makes no sense to me.

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2021, 03:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They aren't good players or even average players. They are bad. Bottom-of-the-roster fluff. Easily replaceable with a body.

No they are not.

Hart was the #40 starting OT according to PFF.

XSF had 53 starts for two different teams before coming to the Bengals.

Hopkins and Hopkins are not great players but they are starter quality.

These guys are not "bottom of the roster fluff" that you can just replace with anybody.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-17-2021, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they are not.

Hart was the #40 starting OT according to PFF.

XSF had 53 starts for two different teams before coming to the Bengals.

Hopkins and Hopkins are not great players but they are starter quality.

These guys are not "bottom of the roster fluff" that you can just replace with anybody.

XSF was a backup immediately prior to signing with the Bengals. How many of his starts were due to injury?

Topou is easily roster fluff.

Price is a complete bust. Fluff.

Gio was 49th among 51 qualifiers in yards/carry, yet has the 12th biggest cap figure among RBs.

All easily replaceable.

Geno is tougher, but the facts are that he's 33, dealt with lots of recent injuries, produced nothing last year, and costs 9+ million.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-17-2021, 03:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hart was the #40 starting OT according to PFF.

Is this supposed to convince me needs to stick around?

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2021, 04:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Is this supposed to convince me needs to stick around?

No. Just pointing out that he can't just be replaced by anyone. I have no problem upgrading Hart but considering that PFF has him rated above a lot of other starting OTs it won't be that cheap and easy.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-17-2021, 03:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Say we cut Trae Hopkins.  Who are we GUARANTEED to be able to sign that would be an upgrade for the same price or less?  Same for XFS, Price, and Tupou?

Why do they have to be an upgrade?  What if you can a player that's just at a comparable level but for much cheaper?

You really don't think we could find somebody in the middle rounds, who makes like 800k a year, that will give you a similar level of play as Billy Price?

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-17-2021, 02:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 35 million in savings and 8 holes to fill.

Not that simple.

The Bengals currenly have 54 players under contract, and 7 more coming via the draft. (Obvioulsy 61 total).

There's people lower on the depth chart, or who have yet to be drafted that can fill some of these roles.  You can also replace some of these guys with lower level players because of their usage and choose to spend the savings on upgrading full-time players.