Duke Tobin

[XenoMorph]

(03-24-2021, 02:49 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: *third highest center - James Daniels was a better prospect

PFF had Price the 5th Center fwiw.

It is also rare for two centers to be taken in the first round. Tobin reached for a center lacking elite attributes in the first round because he failed to address the position in free agency and so panicked when Ragnow went off the board as he needed an immediate starter. At least with Reiff we don't have to take Slater at 5.

And here is the problem when other teams know what your after.....  We got jumped for Ragnow.

[higgy100]

(03-24-2021, 05:17 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Chase didn't play either 

Problem with going Chase or Pitts is that if Joe does not have time to throw --it limits the routes those two can run and negates their strengths. Two biggest concerns about Joe last year -- Having to rush and not working through progressions and the deep ball. I think both are a product of no time. If he does not get time --he cannot develop and therefore won't able to use Pitts or Chase fully. Bengals need to plan for the next 3-5 years and not try to take a short cut. Developing Burrows is the most important task they had and they should have prioritized that last year and definitely need to this year. I would love to add Chase or Pitts but the O-Line being good is most important. Jonah was good when he played and Reif is solid. Hopkins is below average and hurt. Spain and XSF are good back-ups. Turner --if he signed could compete with those two but is far from a sure thing. If they had signed a very good guard I could have moved from Sewell/Slater to Chase but right now --the O-Line is still pretty crappy

But Chase has proven his worth more, imo, in an exceptional conference with weekly NFL talent. Sewell is playing in a terrible conference and playing in a gimmicky offense. Lots of unconventional wide splits on their OL. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player and the ONE thing they need is a LT that is here to stay for 1o years.If this draft was not so deep with very very good OL in rounds 2-3 it would be different.

[TJ528]

(03-24-2021, 11:53 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Price has been bad for 3 years they have Hopkins when he returns and there's no way they'll pick up Price's 5th year option at that cost next year. Plus Price has no position versatility he's awful as a guard. It's to early to write off Adeniji and Johnson but percentage wise undrafted and 6th round picks typically don't pan out. I didn't expect Jordan to be good as a 4th round rookie starting but most players get better in year 2 and Jordan regressed big time he played awful this year. I wound't hate on Tobin for a few misses but he's strung together a lot of bad drafts of late. 

Price played guard initially at Ohio State I believe but he's a better center than guard so that's not saying much.   To rely on Pollack to come in and turn this pile of crap into an average to above average line the FO will need to bring in better talent.  Jordan can stay as a back up but this is year 3 and he's been crap the previous 2 years.   

Tobin has missed a LOT on the draft since 2015.  I think i read somewhere on this board that Mike Brown isn't making the draft picks anymore.  Well if you look at the draft since 2015 with the exception of last year then Mike Brown has some influence  plus we have 4 scouts, and the coaches.  Until this team invest money into the scouting department and payer development side of the business they'll continue to struggle IMO

[CoachGeorge]

(03-24-2021, 02:49 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: *third highest center - James Daniels was a better prospect

PFF had Price the 5th Center fwiw.

It is also rare for two centers to be taken in the first round. Tobin reached for a center lacking elite attributes in the first round because he failed to address the position in free agency and so panicked when Ragnow went off the board as he needed an immediate starter. At least with Reiff we don't have to take Slater at 5.

I think Price was listed as the 2nd best prospect on a majority boards over Daniels but it was close. Price certainly had the better resume. He was considered a plug-and-play prospect. The truth was he only played center his senior year and came to OSU as a defensive lineman. He lacks experience at center and it shows to this day. Even though most on this board consider center his best position, that’s most certainly not true. Chalk it up to small sample size.

Back to Daniels, he is far(or at least significantly) more suited to a wide zone scheme, was (and is) fully capable on line calls and is just more twitchy of an athlete. With Pollack in his first stint with the Bengals, it’s clear to me his opinion meant little to the FO for that draft or what he needed scheme wise. That’s an organizational problem. Something to ponder when people attribute the 2019 draft to Taylor/Turner.

More and more, I think the Bengals have to hit a home run with the vitality important center position (FA, waiver wire or draft). Relying exclusively on Hopkins seem a risk coming off an ACL. Big upgrade required (and I like Trey).

[Hammerstripes]

(03-25-2021, 08:46 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: And here is the problem when other teams know what your after.....  We got jumped for Ragnow.

And there is the problem with the Bengals front office.  A guy that they really want is 2 picks away and they do NOTHING to insure that they get him.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-25-2021, 12:01 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: I think Price was listed as the 2nd best prospect on a majority boards over Daniels but it was close. Price certainly had the better resume.  He was considered a plug-and-play prospect.  The truth was he only played center his senior year and came to OSU as a defensive lineman.  He lacks experience at center and it shows to this day.  Even though most on this board consider center his best position, that’s most certainly not true.  Chalk it up to small sample size.

Back to Daniels,  he is far(or at least significantly) more suited to a wide zone scheme, was (and is) fully capable on line calls and is just more twitchy of an athlete.  With Pollack in his first stint with the Bengals, it’s clear to me his opinion meant little to the FO for that draft or what he needed scheme wise. That’s an organizational problem. Something to ponder when people attribute the 2019 draft to Taylor/Turner.

More and more, I think the Bengals have to hit a home run with the vitality important center position (FA, waiver wire or draft). Relying exclusively on Hopkins seem a risk coming off an ACL.  Big upgrade required (and I like Trey).

Ragnow was arguably the only "complete" C prospect. Ragnow could thrive in both a man and zone scheme.
The debate between Price and Daniels was based on scheme fit.
Price fit better in a man scheme driving off the ball due to his strength but lack of athleticism and agility.
Daniels was more the finesse type, fitting better in a scheme that required lateral movement vs push off the LOS.

[lone bengal]

(03-25-2021, 09:24 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Price played guard initially at Ohio State I believe but he's a better center than guard so that's not saying much.   To rely on Pollack to come in and turn this pile of crap into an average to above average line the FO will need to bring in better talent.  Jordan can stay as a back up but this is year 3 and he's been crap the previous 2 years.   

Tobin has missed a LOT on the draft since 2015.  I think i read somewhere on this board that Mike Brown isn't making the draft picks anymore.  Well if you look at the draft since 2015 with the exception of last year then Mike Brown has some influence  plus we have 4 scouts, and the coaches.  Until this team invest money into the scouting department and payer development side of the business they'll continue to struggle IMO

I won't hold having a couple bad picks against Tobin sometimes players don't pan out. But like you said they've had multiple bad drafts and that was my main issue. Your relying big time on Tobin hitting on multiple offensive lineman, WR and some other positions to help Burrow. The last draft was good. The Tee Higgins pick was great, Wilson has potential but I can't give Tobin credit for drafting Burrow it was a slam dunk and they got the number 1 pick because they had the worst record in football. 

[XenoMorph]

(03-25-2021, 12:05 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: And there is the problem with the Bengals front office.  A guy that they really want is 2 picks away and they do NOTHING to insure that they get him.

they let their mouth piece tell everyone who they were targeting as well

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-24-2021, 09:55 AM)lone bengal Wrote: The future success of Burrow will depend on Tobin hitting big in the draft. The Bengals currently have no good young guards on the roster, no future RT and Hopkins is coming off an ACL.  Seems like the plan to address the line long term is hope Sewell is there at 5 and if not hope Tobin can hit on multiple offensive lineman in later rounds while still addressing other needs with 8 picks. Considering Tobins recent track record with offensive lineman I’m not confident he can draft one let alone two quality lineman. Tobins a big reason why were in this mess by drafting Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, Jordan, trading for Cordy Glenn , signing John Miller, drafting Ross 9th overall, multiple years of awful linebacker drafts, signing/ resigning Preston Brown, reaching for Sample round 2 and hiring this current coaching staff that’s won 6 games in two years.

Not as down on Tobin as you are. Sure, the Og pick was terrible but injury, coaching and mental state were problems with the other
players. Every team misses on Draft picks, heck last year we hit on the first 3 rounds big time. I live in the now, if we Draft as well 
this year as last year, Burrow will be getting a shot at the Playoffs in his second year.

XSF and Spain with an entire Offseason under Pollack could really surprise people and we aren't done yet in FA and the Draft hasn't
even begun and there are some fine Guards/Centers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds like Meinerz, Creed Humphrey, Jackson Carman etc.

[BengalChris]

(03-24-2021, 09:55 AM)lone bengal Wrote: The future success of Burrow will depend on Tobin hitting big in the draft. The Bengals currently have no good young guards on the roster, no future RT and Hopkins is coming off an ACL.  Seems like the plan to address the line long term is hope Sewell is there at 5 and if not hope Tobin can hit on multiple offensive lineman in later rounds while still addressing other needs with 8 picks. Considering Tobins recent track record with offensive lineman I’m not confident he can draft one let alone two quality lineman. Tobins a big reason why were in this mess by drafting Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, Jordan, trading for Cordy Glenn , signing John Miller, drafting Ross 9th overall, multiple years of awful linebacker drafts, signing/ resigning Preston Brown, reaching for Sample round 2 and hiring this current coaching staff that’s won 6 games in two years.

The coaching staff hire is the biggest mess of those that you listed. Keeping them for a 3rd suck ass year is just compounding the mistake into a colossal mess.

I don't see how anyone can look at this team and say its being built to contend. It might be being built to produce profits, but in no way does it look like a contender in the making.

 

[XenoMorph]

(03-26-2021, 01:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not as down on Tobin as you are. Sure, the Og pick was terrible but injury, coaching and mental state were problems with the other
players. Every team misses on Draft picks, heck last year we hit on the first 3 rounds big time. I live in the now, if we Draft as well 
this year as last year, Burrow will be getting a shot at the Playoffs in his second year.

XSF and Spain with an entire Offseason under Pollack could really surprise people and we aren't done yet in FA and the Draft hasn't
even begun and there are some fine Guards/Centers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds like Meinerz, Creed Humphrey, Jackson Carman etc.

What about the coaching says they can make it even with a fully healthy squad?

[GreenCornBengal]

(03-28-2021, 07:43 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The coaching staff hire is the biggest mess of those that you listed. Keeping them for a 3rd suck ass year is just compounding the mistake into a colossal mess.

I don't see how anyone can look at this team and say its being built to contend. It might be being built to produce profits, but in no way does it look like a contender in the making.

 

I disagree that this team isn’t built to contend. We are similar to 3/4 championship teams last year. Star QB, lots of offensive weapons, subpar defense. That’s literally KC, Buffalo and GB.

We need our QB to stay healthy and have time to put up some more points, but we are built much like those teams IMO.

[BengalChris]

(03-29-2021, 09:58 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I disagree that this team isn’t built to contend. We are similar to 3/4 championship teams last year. Star QB, lots of offensive weapons, subpar defense. That’s literally KC, Buffalo and GB.

We need our QB to stay healthy and have time to put up some more points, but we are built much like those teams IMO.

You listed some similarities in general terms, but omitted the vast differences.

 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-29-2021, 11:43 AM)BengalChris Wrote: You listed some similarities in general terms, but omitted the vast differences.

 

Mainly that all those other teams have coaches who aren’t Zac Taylor...

[GreenCornBengal]

(03-29-2021, 11:43 AM)BengalChris Wrote: You listed some similarities in general terms, but omitted the vast differences.

 

Not sure I get your point?

Clearly these teams are vastly different in success. They made their conference championships, we have the #5 pick in the draft. Obviously there are vast differences. Just saying the attempts to build a contender here looks similar to those teams. We are trying to build a high powered offense just like those contending teams.

The difference? Coaching and trench talent.

[Murdock2420]

(03-25-2021, 09:02 AM)higgy100 Wrote:
But Chase has proven his worth more, imo, in an exceptional conference with weekly NFL talent. Sewell is playing in a terrible conference and playing in a gimmicky offense. Lots of unconventional wide splits on their OL. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player and the ONE thing they need is a LT that is here to stay for 1o years.If this draft was not so deep with very very good OL in rounds 2-3 it would be different.

How?

He has 1 season that is exceptional.

His first year, he had 300 yards..

Then he gets Joe Brady who was a mastermind on offense and suddenly LSU turns into the perfect storm.

Brady and Burrow leave, so Chase opts out. Why? Cause there was no way he was going to put up those kind of numbers again. Look at how bad the LSU offense was without Brady calling plays and Burrow at QB.

I'm not sold on Chase as this end all be all talent at WR. I would want another season of high level play. At least the people saying take Pitts have a prospect that has shown he can do it across multiple seasons.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-29-2021, 01:54 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: How?

He has 1 season that is exceptional.

His first year, he had 300 yards..

Then he gets Joe Brady who was a mastermind on offense and suddenly LSU turns into the perfect storm.

Brady and Burrow leave, so Chase opts out. Why? Cause there was no way he was going to put up those kind of numbers again. Look at how bad the LSU offense was without Brady calling plays and Burrow at QB.

I'm not sold on Chase as this end all be all talent at WR. I would want another season of high level play. At least the people saying take Pitts have a prospect that has shown he can do it across multiple seasons.

Chase broke SEC records at 19 years old. He was Burrow’s #1 on a team that included Justin Jefferson (who lit the NFL on fire as a rookie).

I get that you want to go in a different direction (you’ve made it abundantly clear), but there’s no reason to downplay what Chase did, or how high his ceiling is. He’s a tremendous talent.

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 02:01 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Chase broke SEC records at 19 years old. He was Burrow’s #1 on a team that included Justin Jefferson (who lit the NFL on fire as a rookie).

I get that you want to go in a different direction (you’ve made it abundantly clear), but there’s no reason to downplay what Chase did, or how how his ceiling is. He’s a tremendous talent.

That entire team broke records Nico.

It was one hell of a show.

And, yes I want to see them be smart and get the line fixed but if you are going to go skill position, then take Pitts. He has several seasons of production and is a unique talent.

I don't see Chase as so unique versus Waddle or Smith or other WR's in the draft. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-29-2021, 02:04 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That entire team broke records Nico.

It was one hell of a show.

And, yes I want to see them be smart and get the line fixed but if you are going to go skill position, then take Pitts. He has several seasons of production and is a unique talent.

I don't see Chase as so unique versus Waddle or Smith or other WR's in the draft. 

The one season of production thing doesn’t hold much sway for me. Not when it’s that level of production. People said the same thing about Burrow, and he wasn’t anywhere near as young as Chase.

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 02:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The one season of production thing doesn’t hold much sway for me. Not when it’s that level of production. People said the same thing about Burrow, and he wasn’t anywhere near as young as Chase.

I was one of them saying it.

And let's be honest, his first season he was supposed to be the best QB in 10 years and the obvious clear cut best of the class...

However, Herbert showed that gap wasn't actually very big at all, and it is possible Herbert might be better... time will tell.

So, is Chase going to be so much better then all the other WRs?