OL hits and sacks - Joe Goodberry

[*ochocincos*]

(04-13-2021, 03:41 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Knew it was bad but Jordan just flat out sucks. Coaching will help but this team needs a talent infusion on the line desperately.

The sad part is they have replaced almost all of the OL from before Taylor and Turner came in.
The only guys who are still here from Marvin's team are Hopkins and Price.

It's going to take multiple years (or many draft picks) to replace the bad starters and depth that this OL has.

Immediate needs:
Starting OG (assuming RG since Spain and XSF are both better and more comfortable at LG)

Nice-to-haves:
Long-term RT to groom behind Reiff
Replace Jordan
Replace Johnson
Replace Price

[Whatever]

(04-13-2021, 03:18 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Because the offense was one dimensional. The line was allowing pressure with only 4 guys rushing. The safeties sat back because there was no running game. And far too often we went completely empty set.

Blame it on the line. Blame it on the WR's. Blame it on the rookie QB being a rookie. Blame it on the coaching staff and the play calling.

It all needs to be upgraded. No one player fixes this.

Not really true.  Burrow was on pace to be the 2nd most blitzed QB in the league.  He was blitzed on 138 of 404 drop backs, over 1/3 of the time. When DC's are confident singling up your receivers, they are going to tee off on your QB to get you off the field.

[Murdock2420]

(04-13-2021, 04:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: Not really true.  Burrow was on pace to be the 2nd most blitzed QB in the league.  He was blitzed on 138 of 404 drop backs, over 1/3 of the time. When DC's are confident singling up your receivers, they are going to tee off on your QB to get you off the field.

The clip that was on here from twitter with Goodberry saying to count the pressure vs coverage thing. All but 2 snaps, there was 4 guys rushing.

Might have a LB come and a DE drop into coverage... but still was 4 guys coming after Burrow.

For example... watch the first snap. The CB comes on a Blitz... but only 4 guys are actually rushing.



The "blitz" stat can be very misleading.

He may be "blitzed" a lot to confuse him and our terrible line, but there is more often then not... only 4 guys that come.

[fredtoast]

(04-13-2021, 03:41 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Knew it was bad but Jordan just flat out sucks. Coaching will help but this team needs a talent infusion on the line desperately.

(04-13-2021, 04:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Mostly agreed, but also sometimes you just need to look at the talent level. 

I agree with you guys 100%.  We have to add new talent at OL.

But since we can't replace all 5 guys I am hoping that improved coaching helps with the guys we have to work with.

[impactplaya]

This oline had serious conmunication issues in 2020
On a whole the collective football IQ of the oline was not
Good last year. Its the intelligence of a oline that separate
The premier olines from the porous ones
Michael Jordan plain and simple is a dunce. Redmond a double dunce. HART A,TRIPLE DUNCE
And that goes back to Turner and Taylor.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-13-2021, 04:50 PM)impactplaya Wrote: This oline had serious conmunication issues in 2020
On a whole the collective football IQ of the oline was not
Good last year. Its the intelligence of a oline that separate
The premier olines from the porous ones
Michael Jordan plain and simple is a dunce. Redmond a double dunce. HART A,TRIPLE DUNCE
And that goes back to Turner and Taylor.

I feel like this is reverse order.

[Murdock2420]

(04-13-2021, 04:50 PM)impactplaya Wrote: This oline had serious conmunication issues in 2020
On a whole the collective football IQ of the oline was not
Good last year. Its the intelligence of a oline that separate
The premier olines from the porous ones
Michael Jordan plain and simple is a dunce. Redmond a double dunce. HART A,TRIPLE DUNCE
And that goes back to Turner and Taylor.

We have a bunch of not good OL players backing up a bunch of can't stay healthy OL players.

Not a good combination.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-13-2021, 04:30 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The "blitz" stat can be very misleading.

He may be "blitzed" a lot to confuse him and our terrible line, but there is more often then not... only 4 guys that come.

Agreed, and this is where improved coaching comes into play.  Last year's OL seriously lacked recognition and communication of what was about to happen.  They in no way looked like any sort of synchronized unit, but rather like 5 random musicians each playing from a different sheet of music.  That falls onto coaching for not having those guys prepared to recognize, call out, and make proper pickups.

[Murdock2420]

(04-13-2021, 05:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Agreed, and this is where improved coaching comes into play.  Last year's OL seriously lacked recognition and communication of what was about to happen.  They in no way looked like any sort of synchronized unit, but rather like 5 random musicians each playing from a different sheet of music.  That falls onto coaching for not having those guys prepared to recognize, call out, and make proper pickups.

Coaching will help, so will continuity on the line but it also helps if you just have some raw talent out there. Guys that can make a mistake and then have the athletic ability to recover from that mistake. I think that last part is what separates the elite 1st round OL guys from the good players in round 2. The good players will make mistakes, have bad reps and get beat and once they are beat... that's it, QB is killed. The elite high end guys, make a mistake but have the ability to recover from that mistake and still provide good protection. 

I remember hearing the same debate about top tier CBs. The difference between the best and the rest was simply the ability to recover from a mistake. WR beats them and they have the ability to recover, make up ground and still provide good coverage.

[phil413]

(04-13-2021, 03:41 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Knew it was bad but Jordan just flat out sucks. Coaching will help but this team needs a talent infusion on the line desperately.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2020-snap-counts.htm

MJ led guards in QB hits based off of 2/3 of the snap counts (67.84%).  At some point playing a guy and hoping he gets it is actually negligence.  If he makes the roster so be it but yes Cincy needs at least a high and mid round investment to the line (or trade or FA). 

[KillerGoose]

(04-13-2021, 05:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Agreed, and this is where improved coaching comes into play.  Last year's OL seriously lacked recognition and communication of what was about to happen.  They in no way looked like any sort of synchronized unit, but rather like 5 random musicians each playing from a different sheet of music.  That falls onto coaching for not having those guys prepared to recognize, call out, and make proper pickups.

The amount of times there was confusion on how to handle a stunt or a free rusher was maddening. I expect the biggest improvement with Pollack to be in this communication aspect.

[Whatever]

(04-13-2021, 04:30 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The clip that was on here from twitter with Goodberry saying to count the pressure vs coverage thing. All but 2 snaps, there was 4 guys rushing.

Might have a LB come and a DE drop into coverage... but still was 4 guys coming after Burrow.

For example... watch the first snap. The CB comes on a Blitz... but only 4 guys are actually rushing.



The "blitz" stat can be very misleading.

He may be "blitzed" a lot to confuse him and our terrible line, but there is more often then not... only 4 guys that come.

Except that a blitz by definition involves 5 or more players rushing the QB.  

Goodberry has been screaming for OL all off-season.  He is naturally going to post examples with only 4 guys rushing to emphasize his point. I can point to plays that emphasize mine, like WFT bringing 6 on the play Burrow was injured.  That's why you look at season averages and not individual snaps to evaluate these things.

[Murdock2420]

(04-13-2021, 05:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: Except that a blitz by definition involves 5 or more players rushing the QB.  

Goodberry has been screaming for OL all off-season.  He is naturally going to post examples with only 4 guys rushing to emphasize his point. I can point to plays that emphasize mine, like WFT bringing 6 on the play Burrow was injured.  That's why you look at season averages and not individual snaps to evaluate these things.

Yet in the very clip above... you can hear them call the play a "zone blitz" that results in only 4 rushing.

Once upon a time, blitzing meant sending more guys then blockers. I would say Pittsburgh is who really changed that under LeBeau with the Zone Blitzing stuff. You send 6 to the line and guys rush that you don't expect, but in the end, just like the video clip from Baltimore... 4 guys are all that comes. 

"A zone blitz is a defensive tactic that sends additional players to rush the opposing team's quarterback, whilst also unexpectedly redirecting a supposed pass rushing player into pass coverage instead."


Again.. watch the video... watch Pitt play us... You say WFT had 6 on the play Burrow got hurt... cool a team we play once every 3 years blitzed on one play.

Meanwhile.... Baltimore and Pitt who we play twice every single year routinely beat our OL with 4 guys... and sometimes... only 3. Again.. watch the video. 

They still score it as a blitz when the CB comes and the DE or DT drops into coverage. So you have to skip the numbers and actually watch the plays.

Come off the "Team Chase" stuff for a few seconds and actually look at how bad this team is on the line.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-13-2021, 05:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: Except that a blitz by definition involves 5 or more players rushing the QB.  

Goodberry has been screaming for OL all off-season.  He is naturally going to post examples with only 4 guys rushing to emphasize his point. I can point to plays that emphasize mine, like WFT bringing 6 on the play Burrow was injured.  That's why you look at season averages and not individual snaps to evaluate these things.

Side note..  Is it just me, or is anyone else's mind conditioned to automatically read that as WTF when they see it?

[BenZoo2]

(04-13-2021, 05:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Side note..  Is it just me, or is anyone else's mind conditioned to automatically read that as WTF when they see it?

Yup. But when it comes the WFT WTF is very appropriate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-13-2021, 02:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Nope. In this context, depth = backup.
The planned starters going into the season were Williams-Jordan-Hopkins-Su'a Filo-Hart

Whoever came up with that plan should be fired. Or Burrow gets one free shot at hitting then in their nuts.

[fredtoast]

(04-13-2021, 05:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: Except that a blitz by definition involves 5 or more players rushing the QB.  

I don't think this is true.

When you look up how often a DB is used to blitz it includes plays when only four are rushing the passer.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-13-2021, 05:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Side note..  Is it just me, or is anyone else's mind conditioned to automatically read that as WTF when they see it?

I have come to just call them DC. 

Not because of any wistfulness of their old name, but simply because their new name is absolutely stupid, long, sounds like it belongs in MLS, and the only one that doesn't follow the naming convention of the NFL.

[bengals67]

Watching the games last year and reviewing these stats, two questions:


1. How in the world do they pass on Sewell? ( Or the northwestern kid if for some reason good scouting shows him to be better)

2. Why haven't they spent more money on o-line free agents? That is truly mystifying to me.

Fixing the line to help establish a running game and better protect Burrow has to be the top priority of this draft

It is going to take at least two more drafts and two good free agent seasons for this team to be a true contender.

Right now, they must address the o line before anything else.

[Murdock2420]

(04-13-2021, 05:50 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Watching the games last year and reviewing these stats, two questions:


1. How in the world do they pass on Sewell? ( Or the northwestern kid if for some reason good scouting shows him to be better)

2. Why haven't they spent more money on o-line free agents? That is truly mystifying to me.

Fixing the line to help establish a running game and better protect Burrow has to be the top priority of this draft

It is going to take at least two more drafts and two good free agent seasons for this team to be a true contender.

Right now, they must address the o line before anything else.

1) The argument for that is - the OL class is really deep.

2) The tried on Thuney and KC offered more, while they did that Zeitler was offered more by Baltimore and other players were signed quickly. By the time Weds rolled around the contracts were able to be signed all the top OL targets were gone. All that was left was guys coming off bad-seasons, or guys who were coming off injury. I really think the Bengals believed that they had all this cap space and a lot of other teams were in cap trouble so they assumed it would be easier to sign guys. Meanwhile teams that want to win (KC, Balt, LAC, Tampa) all found ways to manipulate the contracts to take tiny cap hits this year and back load the contracts into future years with much larger cap numbers.

In essence... the Bengals were once again out played on a front office level. This is why I've been rather bullish in my stance on the draft needs. The FA market for top OL will always be one of the top markets along with QBs (on the rare times a top one is available), edge rushers and then OL. The RB, LB, TE, WR, and even CB market is less competitive then QB, EDGE and OL.