(04-13-2021, 05:23 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Yet in the very clip above... you can hear them call the play a "zone blitz" that results in only 4 rushing.
Once upon a time, blitzing meant sending more guys then blockers. I would say Pittsburgh is who really changed that under LeBeau with the Zone Blitzing stuff. You send 6 to the line and guys rush that you don't expect, but in the end, just like the video clip from Baltimore... 4 guys are all that comes.
"A zone blitz is a defensive tactic that sends additional players to rush the opposing team's quarterback, whilst also unexpectedly redirecting a supposed pass rushing player into pass coverage instead."
Again.. watch the video... watch Pitt play us... You say WFT had 6 on the play Burrow got hurt... cool a team we play once every 3 years blitzed on one play.
Meanwhile.... Baltimore and Pitt who we play twice every single year routinely beat our OL with 4 guys... and sometimes... only 3. Again.. watch the video.
They still score it as a blitz when the CB comes and the DE or DT drops into coverage. So you have to skip the numbers and actually watch the plays.
Come off the "Team Chase" stuff for a few seconds and actually look at how bad this team is on the line.
Read what you quoted again. What does the word "additional" mean? Would anybody like to read the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry you took that from?
Like a conventional blitz, the zone blitz tactic assigns five or more players to rush the quarterback in a single down, rather than the usual four players. However, unlike a conventional blitz, the zone blitz uses players who are initially positioned to rush (for example, the defensive ends) to instead give pass coverage.[2] For example, a zone blitz may involve two linebackers adding to the rush of three defensive linemen, while a fourth lineman unexpectedly moves into pass coverage.[4]"
Hmmm...it says the zone blitz tactic sends 5 or more players to rush the QB, just like a conventional blitz. So, if a conventional blitz is defined as 5+ rushers and a zone blitz is defined as 5+ rushers, it wouldn't really make sense to count plays where the defense only sends 4 as a blitz, would it?
There's failings in the Baltimore clips at all levels. On some plays, the OL gets fooled or beat. On some plays, there's nobody open. On some plays, Burrow has open guys and enough time to get the ball.out, but doesn't. Honestly, what really stands out the most are the assignment errors. It's not hard to see why Turner got fired.
Nobody is going to argue that we don't need to improve the OL, but to try and sit there and argue that Burrow wasn't really one of the most blitzed QB's in the league is silly. We gave up 48 sacks last year. 23 of those were credited to the OL. 25 are split up between the QB, RB's and TE's, and coverage sacks. We need to get better in all areas. Come off of TeamSewell for a minute and look at the bigger picture.
(04-14-2021, 12:56 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who the hell is claiming Whit was better than Munoz? You’re arguing against a point no one tried to make. I said the best lineman on those teams that went to 5 straight playoffs (ie the longest stretch of success in team history) was a 2nd rounder.
And the only two Super Bowls were in the 80's with a rock on the line named Munoz.
Look, this is simple. Every stat, every number, every possible variable out there shows the same trend.
Do you want Super Bowl chances? Draft Sewell
Do you want big offensive numbers and no playoff success? Draft Chase.
I've been a fan of this team since I was a kid, I was young when Boomer and company lost the Super Bowl to the 49ers but I still remember it. I've watched us botch so many moves, and make so many mistakes. I have said this thousands of times now... Chase is not a bad player, he'll be good in the NFL, but Chase is not the right pick for this team with where it currently sits. However, Chase is exactly the pick that will be made because of three simple reasons:
1) Chase will sell tickets. People will ignore two bad seasons and be excited about the potential offense cause Burrow is back with Chase. You think the Bengals aren't seeing the Twitter mentions with their new social media presence and aren't thinking...we can literally use this to our advantage.
2) Taylor is trying to save face, not his job. I'm pretty sure everyone can look at this team and see it isn't going to really be pushing for more then maybe a .500 season. So, if Taylor gets canned he needs a shiny toy and an offensive explosion to keep him from being a steak house manager.
3) And the most obvious of all, it is the Bengals. Since Mike Brown took over, anytime the Bengals are given two options, we pick the wrong one. Stay put and take DeCastro, or move back and watch him go to your rival and anchor their line for years. Trade your pick to the Saints for their entire draft or stay put and take Akili ***** Smith. I love A.J. Green but Julio Jones ended up being the better receiver. Tyler Eifert or DeAndre Hopkins... Eifert was good, Hopkins is still a monster. Dennard over Jason Verrett, Ced over... anyone at all, moving back with Buffalo and getting Price instead of Ragnow, John ***** Ross instead of literally drafting a paper bag.
So while so many people are singing the Chase praises and drinking the Hopson Kool-aid before he even writes his first fluff piece about the high flying LSU offense that is coming to Cincinnati and people start losing their minds of how good we are going to be....and then....then reality will arrive. When week 1 hits, and the line gets no push still and we can't convert third and one and we have no running game. Then we will wonder why Chase has no separation...which is simple... since teams will rush 4 drop 7 and just take him away with the double team. He isn't Kyle Pitts that will be towering over CBs or outrunning LBs trying to cover him. He is a 6 foot tall guy being covered by 6 foot tall guys that are just as fast and will have safety help.
I'm tired of settling. Tired of losing seasons and tired of watching this franchise try to use a shiny toy to appease fans and sucker us into a new lease or another season of making money for them. I want them to act like an NFL franchise, accept it will be a bad season, draft the guy that anchors the line for 10 plus years, fire Taylor and build a team the right way for once, and drafting a WR when you have a patchwork OL isn't building it the right way at any level of football.
Hobson actually came out and said he wants Sewell...
I’m beyond tired of this though. It’s out of our control. But it sounds very much like Chase is going to be the pick. You can choose to be miserable about it, or you can allow yourself to be excited about adding a great player. Your choice.
(04-14-2021, 01:04 AM)Whatever Wrote: Read what you quoted again. What does the word "additional" mean? Would anybody like to read the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry you took that from?
Like a conventional blitz, the zone blitz tactic assigns five or more players to rush the quarterback in a single down, rather than the usual four players. However, unlike a conventional blitz, the zone blitz uses players who are initially positioned to rush (for example, the defensive ends) to instead give pass coverage.[2] For example, a zone blitz may involve two linebackers adding to the rush of three defensive linemen, while a fourth lineman unexpectedly moves into pass coverage.[4]"
Hmmm...it says the zone blitz tactic sends 5 or more players to rush the QB, just like a conventional blitz. So, if a conventional blitz is defined as 5+ rushers and a zone blitz is defined as 5+ rushers, it wouldn't really make sense to count plays where the defense only sends 4 as a blitz, would it?
There's failings in the Baltimore clips at all levels. On some plays, the OL gets fooled or beat. On some plays, there's nobody open. On some plays, Burrow has open guys and enough time to get the ball.out, but doesn't. Honestly, what really stands out the most are the assignment errors. It's not hard to see why Turner got fired.
Nobody is going to argue that we don't need to improve the OL, but to try and sit there and argue that Burrow wasn't really one of the most blitzed QB's in the league is silly. We gave up 48 sacks last year. 23 of those were credited to the OL. 25 are split up between the QB, RB's and TE's, and coverage sacks. We need to get better in all areas. Come off of TeamSewell for a minute and look at the bigger picture.
Sigh...
Read... send an extra... while doing what?? Dropping a supposed pass rusher into coverage....
Dude... there is literally video evidence of them calling it a Zone blitz where the CB comes and the DL drops into coverage... that means... 4 guys rush. Other people have even told you... that you are wrong, yet you want to double down on this argument?
Just stop... you can pass off your stats anyway you want... you've been a master of manipulation with them all off-season and I'm sick of your bullshit.
Starting to question why I stopped ignoring you...which is amazing, in all the years of being on the boards, I've never had to ignore a "fan" of the same team.
(04-14-2021, 01:31 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Also, by your logic, wouldn’t them taking Sewell automatically make him the wrong choice?
Yes. It's exactly like Murphy's Law, just Murphy is Mike Brown and can't go away soon enough.
The only way to avoid it is to do one of two things.
Have Mike Brown say who he wants, then take the other player or... simply trade back over and over till we have 5 or 6 2nd rounders where we actually seem to know how to draft.
(04-13-2021, 05:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think this is true.
When you look up how often a DB is used to blitz it includes plays when only four are rushing the passer.
A blitz is by definition 5 or more players rushing the QB. If a blitz happened whenever someone who isn't a DL rushes the QB, then 3-4 teams would blitz nearly every play. Burrow's blitz rate was a little over 1/3 of his dropbacks. If that was the case, it would be a lot higher. There are starters down under 23%.
It's a BS argument on his part, anyways. Even if the statistics included whenever a non-DL rushes, that criteria is the same across the board for every QB in the league. Is he going through and breaking down All 22 on every team to determine if Burrow saw an inordinate of 4 man "blitzes" compared to other QB's? We know he's not. He doesn't even know or even cared to ask the source of those statistics.
Read... send an extra... while doing what?? Dropping a supposed pass rusher into coverage....
Dude... there is literally video evidence of them calling it a Zone blitz where the CB comes and the DL drops into coverage... that means... 4 guys rush. Other people have even told you... that you are wrong, yet you want to double down on this argument?
Just stop... you can pass off your stats anyone you want... you've been a master of manipulation with them all off-season and I'm sick of your bullshit.
Starting to question why I stopped ignoring you...which is amazing, in all the years of being on the boards, I've never had to ignore a "fan" of the same team.
Dude, you're ability to read what you want to read is amazing and I've already called you out on it once this off-season.
I literally used the same source you used to put in black and white how you're wrong.
Who cares about stats and data, right? Our opinion is basically fact, right?
Everyone here wants the same thing, at the end of the day. I personally don't ignore people just because they look at things a different way than I do and can intelligently debate their position. Some of the people I've disagreed with the most are the people I respect the most on here. You do you.
(04-13-2021, 04:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: Not really true. Burrow was on pace to be the 2nd most blitzed QB in the league. He was blitzed on 138 of 404 drop backs, over 1/3 of the time. When DC's are confident singling up your receivers, they are going to tee off on your QB to get you off the field.
Not really true.
Josh Allen, Russell Wilson, and Matt Ryan were the three most blitzed QBs in the league last year.
I doubt DCs were confident singling up Diggs and Brown, Mecalf and Lockett, Julio and Ridley.
Burrow was probably blitzed a lot because he was a rookie and our OL was trash.
Just for fun... week 1... went and took the first video that popped up.. let's count them together shall we?
1) 0:03 4 man... got home
2) 0:16 4 man... got home
3) 0:28 Run play
4) 0:34 4 man... got home
5) 0:45 play action, John Ross sucks.
6) 0:54 it's a 4 man rush, Burrow steps up and the guy in coverage collapses. So let's call this a blitz since a 5th came over the line....
7) 1:02 4 man rush again... guess what happens again.
8) 1:10 the worst looking read option I've seen... just wow.
9) 1:25 Finally more then 4 come off the snap. Burrow doesn't get sacked, but the pressure creates a bad throw. Also note Mixon not picking up the LB shooting the A gap.
10) 1:35 It's a run play.
11) 1:44 4 man rush gets good pressure. That's a little DPI on the backside.
12) 1:55 run and fumble... horrible play.
13) 2:10 4 man rush, there is time then the pocket starts to collapse, sack.
14) 2:21 4 man rush... pressure and an INT
So as I said to start all of this... which is proven true here... 4 man fronts get home easily against our OL. That is a problem. Every sack in the game came when they rushed 4 and just beat the OL.
But hey, we can ignore this actual video.
I'm done with this all. As Nico said, (who I have a good deal of respect for) this decision is 100% out of our hands now. Maybe billboards and Tweets (like the GollaDEY) would have gotten attention but at this point, Chase will be the pick.
So, I'm just going to enjoy the Reds and FCC and hopefully in 2022 we'll fire Taylor and get a line.
(04-14-2021, 01:23 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And the only two Super Bowls were in the 80's with a rock on the line named Munoz.
Look, this is simple. Every stat, every number, every possible variable out there shows the same trend.
Do you want Super Bowl chances? Draft Sewell
Do you want big offensive numbers and no playoff success? Draft Chase.
I've been a fan of this team since I was a kid, I was young when Boomer and company lost the Super Bowl to the 49ers but I still remember it. I've watched us botch so many moves, and make so many mistakes. I have said this thousands of times now... Chase is not a bad player, he'll be good in the NFL, but Chase is not the right pick for this team with where it currently sits. However, Chase is exactly the pick that will be made because of three simple reasons:
1) Chase will sell tickets. People will ignore two bad seasons and be excited about the potential offense cause Burrow is back with Chase. You think the Bengals aren't seeing the Twitter mentions with their new social media presence and aren't thinking...we can literally use this to our advantage.
2) Taylor is trying to save face, not his job. I'm pretty sure everyone can look at this team and see it isn't going to really be pushing for more then maybe a .500 season. So, if Taylor gets canned he needs a shiny toy and an offensive explosion to keep him from being a steak house manager.
3) And the most obvious of all, it is the Bengals. Since Mike Brown took over, anytime the Bengals are given two options, we pick the wrong one. Stay put and take DeCastro, or move back and watch him go to your rival and anchor their line for years. Trade your pick to the Saints for their entire draft or stay put and take Akili ***** Smith. I love A.J. Green but Julio Jones ended up being the better receiver. Tyler Eifert or DeAndre Hopkins... Eifert was good, Hopkins is still a monster. Dennard over Jason Verrett, Ced over... anyone at all, moving back with Buffalo and getting Price instead of Ragnow, John ***** Ross instead of literally drafting a paper bag.
So while so many people are singing the Chase praises and drinking the Hopson Kool-aid before he even writes his first fluff piece about the high flying LSU offense that is coming to Cincinnati and people start losing their minds of how good we are going to be....and then....then reality will arrive. When week 1 hits, and the line gets no push still and we can't convert third and one and we have no running game. Then we will wonder why Chase has no separation...which is simple... since teams will rush 4 drop 7 and just take him away with the double team. He isn't Kyle Pitts that will be towering over CBs or outrunning LBs trying to cover him. He is a 6 foot tall guy being covered by 6 foot tall guys that are just as fast and will have safety help.
I'm tired of settling. Tired of losing seasons and tired of watching this franchise try to use a shiny toy to appease fans and sucker us into a new lease or another season of making money for them. I want them to act like an NFL franchise, accept it will be a bad season, draft the guy that anchors the line for 10 plus years, fire Taylor and build a team the right way for once, and drafting a WR when you have a patchwork OL isn't building it the right way at any level of football.
Drafting Penei Sewell doesnt increase your Super Bowl chances
Or guarantee making the playoffs.
The Cleveland Browns had one of the greatest LTs in Joe Thomas....how many playoff games did he play in?
0.
Sewell is a talent no doubt it. The Bengals can draft him
And JB can still take one hit and land on the IR.Its the nature of the game. Ive seen great talents at QB spend many days on the IR
(04-14-2021, 01:23 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: And the only two Super Bowls were in the 80's with a rock on the line named Munoz.
Look, this is simple. Every stat, every number, every possible variable out there shows the same trend.
Do you want Super Bowl chances? Draft Sewell
Do you want big offensive numbers and no playoff success? Draft Chase.
I've been a fan of this team since I was a kid, I was young when Boomer and company lost the Super Bowl to the 49ers but I still remember it. I've watched us botch so many moves, and make so many mistakes. I have said this thousands of times now... Chase is not a bad player, he'll be good in the NFL, but Chase is not the right pick for this team with where it currently sits. However, Chase is exactly the pick that will be made because of three simple reasons:
1) Chase will sell tickets. People will ignore two bad seasons and be excited about the potential offense cause Burrow is back with Chase. You think the Bengals aren't seeing the Twitter mentions with their new social media presence and aren't thinking...we can literally use this to our advantage.
2) Taylor is trying to save face, not his job. I'm pretty sure everyone can look at this team and see it isn't going to really be pushing for more then maybe a .500 season. So, if Taylor gets canned he needs a shiny toy and an offensive explosion to keep him from being a steak house manager.
3) And the most obvious of all, it is the Bengals. Since Mike Brown took over, anytime the Bengals are given two options, we pick the wrong one. Stay put and take DeCastro, or move back and watch him go to your rival and anchor their line for years. Trade your pick to the Saints for their entire draft or stay put and take Akili ***** Smith. I love A.J. Green but Julio Jones ended up being the better receiver. Tyler Eifert or DeAndre Hopkins... Eifert was good, Hopkins is still a monster. Dennard over Jason Verrett, Ced over... anyone at all, moving back with Buffalo and getting Price instead of Ragnow, John ***** Ross instead of literally drafting a paper bag.
So while so many people are singing the Chase praises and drinking the Hopson Kool-aid before he even writes his first fluff piece about the high flying LSU offense that is coming to Cincinnati and people start losing their minds of how good we are going to be....and then....then reality will arrive. When week 1 hits, and the line gets no push still and we can't convert third and one and we have no running game. Then we will wonder why Chase has no separation...which is simple... since teams will rush 4 drop 7 and just take him away with the double team. He isn't Kyle Pitts that will be towering over CBs or outrunning LBs trying to cover him. He is a 6 foot tall guy being covered by 6 foot tall guys that are just as fast and will have safety help.
I'm tired of settling. Tired of losing seasons and tired of watching this franchise try to use a shiny toy to appease fans and sucker us into a new lease or another season of making money for them. I want them to act like an NFL franchise, accept it will be a bad season, draft the guy that anchors the line for 10 plus years, fire Taylor and build a team the right way for once, and drafting a WR when you have a patchwork OL isn't building it the right way at any level of football.
If the Bengals,are putting up big offensive numbers
Then chances are the oline is protecting JB and the Bengals
Are in the playoffs.
You need to average at least 24 pts a game in order to realistically make the playoffs
(04-14-2021, 09:24 AM)impactplaya Wrote: If the Bengals,are putting up big offensive numbers
Then chances are the oline is protecting JB and the Bengals
Are in the playoffs.
You need to average at least 24 pts a game in order to realistically make the playoffs
or we are playing from behind every game generating stats in garbage time...
(04-13-2021, 03:41 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Knew it was bad but Jordan just flat out sucks. Coaching will help but this team needs needed talent infusion on the line desperately.
There, fixed it for you. Not happening this season... again!
(04-14-2021, 01:37 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Yes. It's exactly like Murphy's Law, just Murphy is Mike Brown and can't go away soon enough.
The only way to avoid it is to do one of two things.
Have Mike Brown say who he wants, then take the other player or... simply trade back over and over till we have 5 or 6 2nd rounders where we actually seem to know how to draft.
They have actually done this.... In 2001 Mike Brown wanted to draft Drew Breese, but the coaches talked him out of it with a plea ti draft Justin Smith instead.
The way I see it, this Bengals coaching staff has a 1 season track record with the draft (WHEN THEY HAVE HAD TIME TO PUT IN) and they nailed it. PFF had the Bengals 2020 draft class as the best in the NFL.
These guys at the top of the org: Taylor, Blackburns, Tobin, etc seem to have a plan. New players from outside of the org seem to like it (FA's have all talked at will about this). And Mike Brown seems fine to let them execute the plan.
Let's be honest here, the last 2 Bengals off-seasons have not looked anything like the previous 30(ish). I'm not so sure banging the same drum to the same ol' beat makes sense given that the song seems to have changed. Time will tell!
(04-14-2021, 09:27 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: or we are playing from behind every game generating stats in garbage time...
In the weeks leading up to Burrow's injury the Bengals offense had started looking pretty lethal, with the exception of a bad outing against the Steelers.
There was a story from a player that came out after the 1st Ravens game. Burrow had played horribly & Joe was virtually inconsolable in the locker room. He was furious with himself and how he played. He blamed himself for the game and when players came up to pat him on the back and tell him it was ok he kept promising and saying to them that that will NEVER happen to him again. The player said he was legitimately angry with himself and already knew what had happened on the field. Like, he had already processed it and was ready to get into the film room.
The 3 next games the Bengals lit it up on offense and against VERY GOOD TEAMS. I believe the Colts had a top defense and the #1 defense against the pass when they played.
The Bengals went for 27, 34, & 31 against 3 playoff teams. None of that was garbage time stuff.
The Steelers game wasn't great, but in the Redskins game the Bengals were marching down the field and controlling that game. I have zero doubts they were going to hang a ton of points on yet ANOTHER playoff team. Burrow had a goaline fumble as he dove into the end zone in a freak play and fat Randy missed a field goal... all in the first half against a very good defense. Realistically, it could/should have been 20-7 at half time with the Bengals poised to pin their ears back and keep rolling... But the line leaked 1 too many times and that was that. Burrow had 203 yards at half time.
Anyway, my point is that the worst part about the Bengals the season is that it was starting to click just as they were rolling into the softest part of their schedule. To get that work in would have been HUGE.
I think that Goodberry's stats on the line looks to be addition by subtraction: Hart gone & Jordan basically 3rd string (once a draft pick or twe/FA are added). That's what I took from it all. Like, those 4 out of games where the Bengals offense started coming into it's own should have fans excited. I think the future is BRIGHT!
(04-14-2021, 10:28 AM)PDub80 Wrote: In the weeks leading up to Burrow's injury the Bengals offense had started looking pretty lethal, with the exception of a bad outing against the Steelers.
There was a story from a player that came out after the 1st Ravens game. Burrow had played horribly & Joe was virtually inconsolable in the locker room. He was furious with himself and how he played. He blamed himself for the game and when players came up to pat him on the back and tell him it was ok he kept promising and saying to them that that will NEVER happen to him again. The player said he was legitimately angry with himself and already knew what had happened on the field. Like, he had already processed it and was ready to get into the film room.
The 3 next games the Bengals lit it up on offense and against VERY GOOD TEAMS. I believe the Colts had a top defense and the #1 defense against the pass when they played.
The Bengals went for 27, 34, & 31 against 3 playoff teams. None of that was garbage time stuff.
The Steelers game wasn't great, but in the Redskins game the Bengals were marching down the field and controlling that game. I have zero doubts they were going to hang a ton of points on yet ANOTHER playoff team. Burrow had a goaline fumble as he dove into the end zone in a freak play and fat Randy missed a field goal... all in the first half against a very good defense. Realistically, it could/should have been 20-7 at half time with the Bengals poised to pin their ears back and keep rolling... But the line leaked 1 too many times and that was that. Burrow had 203 yards at half time.
Anyway, my point is that the worst part about the Bengals the season is that it was starting to click just as they were rolling into the softest part of their schedule. To get that work in would have been HUGE.
I think that Goodberry's stats on the line looks to be addition by subtraction: Hart gone & Jordan basically 3rd string (once a draft pick or twe/FA are added). That's what I took from it all. Like, those 4 out of games where the Bengals offense started coming into it's own should have fans excited. I think the future is BRIGHT!
We did average a lot of points there for a stretch and Joe looked amazing (even without Chase or Pitts ), but we couldnt protect leads late in games when we had a lead because of the lack of running game and porous defense. Mixon getting hurt didnt help, but the truth is, he was getting hit in the backfield 95% of the time when he was healthy anyway. We need more than an air raid to be a playoff team. We have to be able to run and the better we can the better we will be. I think Pollack will help that issue greatly, but we still need upgrades, depth and youth on the OL regardless.
I'd feel better about taking Sewell had he turned out to be the consensus unbelievable prospect people made him out to be during the season. Dane Brugler has Sewell as his OT1, but would rank him as a prospect behind three guys from last year. If Sewell was a Joe Thomas level prospect, I doubt Miami would have traded out of 3. And it would be hard to take him at 5 knowing you probably could have traded back to 9 and still gotten him.
On the other hand, if they wait until the second round to take an OL, there's a good chance we are right back here next spring needing a tackle. If you take Sewell, I'm confident he becomes at minimum a productive right tackle and the draft opens up in 2022.
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
![[Image: bengals08-1-800small.jpg]](https://i.ibb.co/MRz4cC9/bengals08-1-800small.jpg)
), but we couldnt protect leads late in games when we had a lead because of the lack of running game and porous defense. Mixon getting hurt didnt help, but the truth is, he was getting hit in the backfield 95% of the time when he was healthy anyway. We need more than an air raid to be a playoff team. We have to be able to run and the better we can the better we will be. I think Pollack will help that issue greatly, but we still need upgrades, depth and youth on the OL regardless.
