Joey B talks to Collinsworth

[Shake n Blake]

Some of us have a tendency to idolize players, but I'm not sure I want a 24 year old Gen Y'er who happens to be BFF with a top prospect to be making GM decisions for the franchise...and shame on the Bengals if they let themselves be swayed by the opinion of said 24 year old.

Joe Burrow is a great young QB, but he isn't thinking about Reiff being on a 1 year deal. He isn't thinking about 4-5 years down the road and whether or not we'll be able to pay himself, Chase and Higgins big contracts... for guys all associated with one aspect of a team game.

He's not thinking if Reiff can successfully slide inside or not. Or whether we will have enough balls to supply Mixon, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. He's not considering that we threw way more than we rightfully should have last year, and that we shouldn't be fully replacing AJ Green's 100 targets because Mixon should be healthy this year.

He isn't trying to figure out if a speed guy will be available in the 2nd round. Or if some of these inferior o-line prospects who fit our scheme will be better than the WR prospects available.

Those considerations are for Duke Tobin, Zac Taylor and this front office. Hopefully these guys do their jobs and let Burrow do his.

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 11:06 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Personally, I dont think it's arrogance, its a realistic view on this franchise.  

If you've been a fan since the 80's like a lot of people, we've seen some of the stupid shit this organization does, and still does to this day. 

It's pretty sad that most successful period of time for this franchise in his HISTORY was the 15 year reign of Marvin Lewis and yet everyone criticizes the man and says he couldn't win and the team sucked. 

Well I'd welcome you to look at the previous 40 years and see how many successful seasons are included in those season. 

I'd love to see my team be an elite team in this league, but it wont happen until we have elite leadership. 

Maybe that's starting to change with Mikey taking a step back but I'll wait til i see results before I start blowing smoke up their ass. 

Who has a more realistic perspective of the Bengals? A fan or Joe Burrow?

To think any of us have even a thimble full of of knowledge about the Bengals & ZT compared to Joe Burrow is arrogant AF.

Stop crying about 40 ***** years. Are you kdding? That has ZERO to do with the topic and ZERO influence on ANYTHING about Joe Burrow or ZT.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 11:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Who has a more realistic perspective of the Bengals? A fan or Joe Burrow?

To think any of us have even a thimble full of of knowledge about the Bengals & ZT compared to Joe Burrow is arrogant AF.

Stop crying about 40 ***** years. Are you kdding? That has ZERO to do with the topic and ZERO influence on ANYTHING about Joe Burrow or ZT.

Opinions are like ***holes everyones got one P.  

I like Burrow and honestly believe that he's going to win and win a lot in Cincinnati.  

I dont like ZT because I don't believe he's going to win.  Show me you can win and i'll believe you can win. 

I think he's a career coordinator.  If he wins this year and they turn it around I'll be one of the first to eat crow.  

However, a 6-25-1 record doesn't prove anything other than your a shitty coach so far. 

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 11:33 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Opinions are like ***holes everyones got one P.  

I like Burrow and honestly believe that he's going to win and win a lot in Cincinnati.  

I dont like ZT because I don't believe he's going to win.  Show me you can win and i'll believe you can win. 

I think he's a career coordinator.  If he wins this year and they turn it around I'll be one of the first to eat crow.  

However, a 6-25-1 record doesn't prove anything other than your a shitty coach so far. 

ZT was given a horrible roster who had been on the decline and getting progressively worse over several years. That's a fact. I have no problem giving him time.

Here is my issue.... And, BTW, I have no issue with people wanting or expecting better results....

If Joe Burrow, a new player, says he likes him. And vets come in from other teams and they all say that they like him and the vision and the direction.... and then the fans all just wave their hands and dismiss the opinions of EVERYONE THERE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN THE KNOW... then why even discuss this topic? Minds are made up.... minds that have the LEAST amount of information.

If the players vouching for the guy cannot shed light on what's actually happening in PBS from a coaching perspective, then what will? Winning? The players have lost the games. I made a list earlier pointing to a ton of things the players themselves failed to do when in position to win the game. The coach puts them in position to win, they have just dropped the ball or missed a kick, or missed a tackle. That is NOT on the coach when it comes down to the actual plays that happened.

[fullonbehavior]

(04-21-2021, 03:03 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, when a head coach finally proves he is capable of winning games after having 6 total wins in his first 2 seasons, people tend to start being more supportive of that coach. Sort of a natural progression, don't you think? Prove you can win games = fans start believing you can win games.

But too many people don't allow for the growing pains.  Belichick had 1 winning season when he coached for the Browns.  Takes time to get your feet under you and get the players in that fit your vision.  I don't ever want to be like Cleveland has been with a coaching carousel for years.

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 10:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Your arrogance knows no bounds.

I have no idea what this has to do with my post that you quoted.

Do you disagree with my assesment tjat an overwhelming majority of NFL players say positive things about their coaches? Even the ones who have horrible coaches that end up getting fired because they can't win?

I am not calling these players stupid. I am just explaining why they say these things even when they are in a bad situation. I would do the exact same thing.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 11:39 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ZT was given a horrible roster who had been on the decline and getting progressively worse over several years. That's a fact. I have no problem giving him time.

Here is my issue.... And, BTW, I have no issue with people wanting or expecting better results....

If Joe Burrow, a new player, says he likes him. And vets come in from other teams and they all say that they like him and the vision and the direction.... and then the fans all just wave their hands and dismiss the opinions of EVERYONE THERE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN THE KNOW... then why even discuss this topic? Minds are made up.... minds that have the LEAST amount of information.

If the players vouching for the guy cannot shed light on what's actually happening in PBS from a coaching perspective, then what will? Winning? The players have lost the games. I made a list earlier pointing to a ton of things the players themselves failed to do when in position to win the game. The coach puts them in position to win, they have just dropped the ball or missed a kick, or missed a tackle. That is NOT on the coach when it comes down to the actual plays that happened.

Again, PDub I respect what your saying, and appreciate you have no issue with people wanting results. 

However, when it comes to players talking about their boss no ones ever going to throw their boss under the bus so to speak. 

In the early 90's when Dave Shula was struggling and David Klingler was our QB I never once heard a player criticize Dave Shula or the scheme that I can remember.  We all knew Dave Shuia was a crap coach but it wasnt until year 3 or 4 you started to hear players chirp because they were losing and losing bad.   They became the Bungals.  

When talking about the roster, you say Zac was given a horrible roster?  So this so called horrible roster had multiple Pro Bowlers on the roster.  Zac came in with the idea he was going to run the defense he wanted to run and brought in a DC who runs a zone defense when the personnel was brought in for man to man.  Great idea.  A good or great coach would bring in a staff that would fit and slowly mold the personnel on the team currently instead of wait 3 years to change out the entire team.  


Marvin came into the Bengals in 2003 and after 12 years of losing was able to turn around that team and have them in the playoffs in year 3.  I'd expect that our of ZT.  This is NOW ZT team.  Whether he likes it or not.  This is his team and he built this team.  This is what he's going to battle with this year.  If he doesn't show improvement IMO he should be gone.  You can only blame youth, injuries, age, old players, the DC sucks....excuses are like ***holes everyone got one.   

The only result that matters is wins.  I think Burrow is the only reason we could win last  year.  It's not because of Taylor. 

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 11:39 AM)PDub8 Wrote: If Joe Burrow, a new player, says he likes him. And vets come in from other teams and they all say that they like him and the vision and the direction.... and then the fans all just wave their hands and dismiss the opinions of EVERYONE THERE WHO ARE ACTUALLY IN THE KNOW... then why even discuss this topic? Minds are made up.... minds that have the LEAST amount of information.

Fans are justfied in taking this position because anyone familiar with the NFL knows that players say good things about their coaches even when their coaches suck.

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 11:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no idea what this has to do with my post that you quoted.

Do you disagree with my assesment tjat an overwhelming majority of NFL players say positive things about their coaches? Even the ones who have horrible coaches that end up getting fired because they can't win?

I am not calling these players stupid. I am just explaining why they say these things even when they are in a bad situation. I would do the exact same thing.

YES, I disagree with your generalization that NFL players lie about their coaches. By your rationale, you could never believe anything a player ever says about any organization or coach because they are all being influenced by something or lying.

^ This, again, is an all or nothing, black/white approach. It's unrealistic.

I'm sure we can go back through post histories of members and find where they agree with what players say.... as long is it fits their personal narrative.

No one listening to Joe Burrow's interview would think he is being disingenuous with what he's saying. What he said cannot be disproven at all. He gave his opinion and personal experience on working with Zac. And people are on here just dismissing it because "he works there". Well, no shit, Sherlock. Who else's opinion would matter more than the guys who directly work with Taylor?

Marvin Lewis was given over a decade to win. And he came in with a roster who's best players were young and entering their prime. They were LODAED on offense and had a very good O line... and the #1 pick in hand. They needed tweaking and organizational modernization. He gave them that. To not recognize Taylor's situation as much much different and then give him less time is weird to me.

ZT does not look inept. His players play very hard for him. They have won games they shouldn't have won or were underdogs in. They have had stretches where they looked EXCELLENT in certain phases of the game. Are the results there? Not yet. But when the Young STUD QB, in a national interview, tells people he likes the guy and why.... to discredit that is asinine to me.

I have no issues with people saying ZT has to do better with the ENTIRE team and not just win over the QB. ZT needs to win more games THIS year. Period. If ZT hasn't more than doubled his career win total by the end of this season, he should be gone, IMO. But, that doesn't negate what Burrow said as far as his own opinion is concerned.

Now, to answer your first question ^ the fact that you wanted to wipe all of that away because YOUR opinion is different is.... ARROGANT.

[sandwedge]

(04-22-2021, 08:53 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Well I'll give you that.  I have no doubt that Zac Taylor knows more about football in his pinky finger than 99.9% of the people on this board.

However, I'm not sure that 99.9% of the people on this board would have a 6-25-1 record after 32 games in the NFL either.  

Again, I'm like the Missouri state...."Show Me".  Show me results that prove your a good football coach.

Have you seen anything in 2 years that tell you he's a good football coach?  I mean the results speak for themselves.  

This guy has more support from the front office and still failed to win more games in his first 2 seasons than Dave Shula.  

That's saying alot....

However, I hope we do have a winning season because this team will never win with Burrow changing out coaches all the time. 

I understand that and agree with it.

[sandwedge]

(04-22-2021, 11:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you've been a fan since the 80s, you'd realize that 2003-2018 wasn't the most successful run in team history.

Marvin Lewis was Sam Wyche without the Super Bowl run.

I think Sam's first couple of years were rough also.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 12:06 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I think Sam's first couple of years were rough also.

If you look at the Bengals history there's only 3 coaches with over .500 records, Bill Johnson, Forrest Gregg, and Marvin Lewis. 

Sam may have taken the Bengals to the Super Bowl but he still finished 5 games under .500 for his career in Cincinnati. 

If we want to say well Marvin was 0-7 in the playoffs, well Paul Brown was 0-2 in the playoffs as Bengals Head Coach did that make him a crappy coach?  Just sayin. 

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 12:02 PM)PDub80 Wrote: YES, I disagree with your generalization that NFL players lie about their coaches. By your rationale, you could never believe anything a player ever says about any organization or coach because they are all being influenced by something or lying.

^ This, again, is an all or nothing, black/white approach. It's unrealistic.

I'm sure we can go back through post histories of members and find where they agree with what players say.... as long is it fits their personal narrative.

No one listening to Joe Burrow's interview would think he is being disingenuous with what he's saying. What he said cannot be disproven at all. He gave his opinion and personal experience on working with Zac. And people are on here just dismissing it because "he works there". Well, no shit, Sherlock. Who else's opinion would matter more than the guys who directly work with Taylor?

Marvin Lewis was given over a decade to win. And he came in with a roster who's best players were young and entering their prime. They were LODAED on offense and had a very good O line... and the #1 pick in hand. They needed tweaking and organizational modernization. He gave them that. To not recognize Taylor's situation as much much different and then give him less time is weird to me.

ZT does not look inept. His players play very hard for him. They have won games they shouldn't have won or were underdogs in. They have had stretches where they looked EXCELLENT in certain phases of the game. Are the results there? Not yet. But when the Young STUD QB, in a national interview, tells people he likes the guy and why.... to discredit that is asinine to me.

I have no issues with people saying ZT has to do better with the ENTIRE team and not just win over the QB. ZT needs to win more games THIS year. Period. If ZT hasn't more than doubled his career win total by the end of this season, he should be gone, IMO. But, that doesn't negate what Burrow said as far as his own opinion is concerned.

Now, to answer your first question ^ the fact that you wanted to wipe all of that away because YOUR opinion is different is.... ARROGANT.

Please provide a list of all rookie/2nd year QBs who have criticized their head coach to the media.

You asked whose opion we should listen to.  I say ANYONE other than a player who history has proven will never say anything negative about his head coach.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 12:06 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I think Sam's first couple of years were rough also.

8-8 and 7-9. Marvin Lewis type seasons.

Zac is what? 5-26-1?

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 12:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 8-8 and 7-9. Marvin Lewis type seasons.

Zac is what? 5-26-1?

You just don't understand. Every loss under Marvin was the coaches failt while every loss under Zac is the players fault. Zac has always done his job but the players keep messing up.

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 11:47 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Again, PDub I respect what your saying, and appreciate you have no issue with people wanting results. 

However, when it comes to players talking about their boss no ones ever going to throw their boss under the bus so to speak. 

In the early 90's when Dave Shula was struggling and David Klingler was our QB I never once heard a player criticize Dave Shula or the scheme that I can remember.  We all knew Dave Shuia was a crap coach but it wasnt until year 3 or 4 you started to hear players chirp because they were losing and losing bad.   They became the Bungals.  

When talking about the roster, you say Zac was given a horrible roster?  So this so called horrible roster had multiple Pro Bowlers on the roster.  Zac came in with the idea he was going to run the defense he wanted to run and brought in a DC who runs a zone defense when the personnel was brought in for man to man.  Great idea.  A good or great coach would bring in a staff that would fit and slowly mold the personnel on the team currently instead of wait 3 years to change out the entire team.  


Marvin came into the Bengals in 2003 and after 12 years of losing was able to turn around that team and have them in the playoffs in year 3.  I'd expect that our of ZT.  This is NOW ZT team.  Whether he likes it or not.  This is his team and he built this team.  This is what he's going to battle with this year.  If he doesn't show improvement IMO he should be gone.  You can only blame youth, injuries, age, old players, the DC sucks....excuses are like ***holes everyone got one.   

The only result that matters is wins.  I think Burrow is the only reason we could win last  year.  It's not because of Taylor. 

Love the discussion. I will address your points in order as best as I can. This is how I see it...

1: Players did not have the outreach to speak in the 90s that they do now.

2: Players absolutely spoke out against Dave Shula. Mike Brown invented the "Carl Pickens" clause in Bengals contracts because of it. I think players are more patient than fans. I get that.

3: SILENCE says a lot, right? I get players not coming out and crapping on their coach or organization. Silence can be deafening, right? But, we aren't talking about interpreting silence, correct? We are talking about players... YOUNG, and VETERANS from other teams who are actively out there bringing this up in interviews. They are speaking out positively... in the offseason... on their own.

4: Zac Taylor was brought in so late for his start that so many coaches had already been hired. It's tough for me to hate on him for any of that. Frank Pollack came BACK because he liked the interview with Zac so much. Does what he has to say not matter? Is Frank Pollack lying, too?

5: Marvin fired his first AND 2nd DCs. He threw Leslie Frazier under a bus for the Bengals defensive failings. Frazier went on to have quite a bit of success as a DC for the Vikings and eventually became a head coach.

6: Zac Taylor's vision for how he wants the Bengals to play is different than Marvin's. They need to get those players on the roster. That takes time and there are growing pains. I prefer the Bengals to just hack off the crap that doesn't fit them and move on quickly rather than a long, slow, drawn out process.

7: Marvin was handed a roster with some borderline HOFers and a loaded offense... along with a good offensive line... He was also handed Carson his first year. The Bengals defense stunk, which is why they went 2-14... look at the box scores after the bye week in 2002. The Bengals were putting up points but couldn't stop anyone. So, the offense was coming on by the end of 2002. That 2002 roster had a really good foundation for Marvin to start from.

What did ZT have to start with? A busted AJ Green, a dumpy, overrated Andy Dalton, no offensive line... HOW MANY THREADS DO WE HAVE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THE BENGALS DRAFTS HAVE STUNK FOR A LONG TIME? His "probowlers" were probowlers in YEARS past, but way past their primes. Marvin came in with a roster that had young guns ready to explode. ZT's roster had a busted and broken roster plagued by 5-8 years of bad bad bad drafts.

I agree that ZT has to make major strides this season. The entire team does. I am willing to be patient because Taylor doesn't look totally inept or like he's getting outcoached. He has beaten some very good teams while being way outgunned most of the time.

^ That is all why I cannot just dismiss Joe Burrow's support of Taylor. It's unreasonable to look at the big picture and think ZT is the main issue.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 12:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You just don't understand. Every loss under Marvin was the coaches failt while every loss under Zac is the players fault. Zac has always done his job but the players keep messing up.

You know Fred I'm noticing that trending more in defense of Zac as well.  

That the players messed up.  That they could look at tape and could point out how many times the player messed up.

Yes, the ending of the Steelers playoff game where Jeremy Hills fumbles everyone blames the coaching not the player. 

hmmm, very interesting.  

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 12:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 8-8 and 7-9. Marvin Lewis type seasons.

Zac is what? 5-26-1?

Marvin was handed a roster coming into it's prime. The offense could score points (look at the box scores after the bye week in 2002. The defense stunk. Marvin had 1 major thing to come in and fix... and a #1 stud QB to do it with. Marvin's problem wasn't talent. It was procedural and organizational. he did a great job turning those things around.

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 12:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You just don't understand. Every loss under Marvin was the coaches failt while every loss under Zac is the players fault. Zac has always done his job but the players keep messing up.

(04-22-2021, 12:25 PM)TJ528 Wrote: You know Fred I'm noticing that trending more in defense of Zac as well.  

That the players messed up.  That they could look at tape and could point out how many times the player messed up.

Yes, the ending of the Steelers playoff game where Jeremy Hills fumbles everyone blames the coaching not the player. 

hmmm, very interesting.  

After so many years... YES, it became Mavin's fault. He was given a very long time before people jumped on him for being inept. He was also given some of the best rosters in football over his time in Cincinnati. To compare Marvin's rosters to ZT's rosters is laughable.

No one should be blaming Marvin for Hill's fumble. But, they should blame him for Burfict and Jones losing their minds. Marvin's teams were plagued by mental errors, lack of adjustments, and collapses under the spotlights, and losing to teams he had more talent than. THOSE things, after so many years of it, go on the head coach.

ZT has had far less to work with from a roster standpoint and hasn't started year 3... and people want his head.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 12:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Love the discussion. I will address your points in order as best as I can. This is how I see it...

1: Players did not have the outreach to speak in the 90s that they do now.

2: Players absolutely spoke out against Dave Shula. Mike Brown invented the "Carl Pickens" clause in Bengals contracts because of it. I think players are more patient than fans. I get that.

3: SILENCE says a lot, right? I get players not coming out and crapping on their coach or organization. Silence can be deafening, right? But, we aren't talking about interpreting silence, correct? We are talking about players... YOUNG, and VETERANS from other teams who are actively out there bringing this up in interviews. They are speaking out positively... in the offseason... on their own.

4: Zac Taylor was brought in so late for his start that so many coaches had already been hired. It's tough for me to hate on him for any of that. Frank Pollack came BACK because he liked the interview with Zac so much. Does what he has to say not matter? Is Frank Pollack lying, too?

5: Marvin fired his first AND 2nd DCs. He threw Leslie Frazier under a bus for the Bengals defensive failings. Frazier went on to have quite a bit of success as a DC for the Vikings and eventually became a head coach.

6: Zac Taylor's vision for how he wants the Bengals to play is different than Marvin's. They need to get those players on the roster. That takes time and there are growing pains. I prefer the Bengals to just hack off the crap that doesn't fit them and move on quickly rather than a long, slow, drawn out process.

7: Marvin was handed a roster with some borderline HOFers and a loaded offense... along with a good offensive line... He was also handed Carson his first year. The Bengals defense stunk, which is why they went 2-14... look at the box scores after the bye week in 2002. The Bengals were putting up points but couldn't stop anyone. So, the offense was coming on by the end of 2002. That 2002 roster had a really good foundation for Marvin to start from.

What did ZT have to start with? A busted AJ Green, a dumpy, overrated Andy Dalton, no offensive line... HOW MANY THREADS DO WE HAVE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THE BENGALS DRAFTS HAVE STUNK FOR A LONG TIME? His "probowlers" were probowlers in YEARS past, but way past their primes. Marvin came in with a roster that had young guns ready to explode. ZT's roster had a busted and broken roster plagued by 5-8 years of bad bad bad drafts.

I agree that ZT has to make major strides this season. The entire team does. I am willing to be patient because Taylor doesn't look totally inept or like he's getting outcoached. He has beaten some very good teams while being way outgunned most of the time.

^ That is all why I cannot just dismiss Joe Burrow's support of Taylor. It's unreasonable to look at the big picture and think ZT is the main issue.

You make a lot of good points.  I honestly don't believe Dunlap or Atkins are washed up overrated Pro Bowlers.  I think both could play in the league for another 2-3 years.   I just think Lou's that shitty of a DC.  Again, my opinion.  

My issue with your take on the 2002 season is your right the defense sucked but who'd won in Cincinnati in 12 years?  If i remember right Dick LeBeau who was a defensive master mind couldnt get that team to play defense.  Why?  Was it because he didnt know anything about defenses?  I mean his defenses in Pittsburgh tell me different. 

Marvin, IMO, built that team.  There were pieces but Zac had as many pieces as Marvin did.   Marvin is a great talent evaluator.  I think Marvin checked out after that 2015 team lost in the playoffs.  You could tell it in the drafts.  Marvin and his staff were very involved with the drafts and evaluations and once we lost that playoff game shit went downhill.  The 2019 draft sucked ass too, however, as you said Zac got hired late in the process.  

My whole thing is show me results.  I want to go buy a new jersey because I love the new jerseys.  I love the new look.  I love the new energy in the front office but that energy has to translate into wins on the field or your just putting lipstick on a pig.