Joey B talks to Collinsworth

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 01:16 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Do you see any difference between football plays like a fumble, botched snap, missed kick, dropped passes, INT, etc. and mental/discipline issues like personal foul (shoving another team's coach), or personal foul (spearing to the head after a ball flies past a WR by a player who was allowed to play dirty for years?). Or, too many men in the huddle? Too many men on the field? Illegal formation? Illegal substitution? Illegal shift? 

See, I DO see the differences between those types of things. one is physical play and action within the course of a football game (PLAYER) and the other is discipline, professionalism, and procedural (COACH/GAME MANAGEMENT).

But let me make a wild guess here.  Zac had NOTHING to do with the way the Bengals behavef in the Dolphins game last year.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 01:54 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I'm not sold on Zac, BUT.....Marvin did have the best offensive line this team has had since the late 80s when he arrived. The organization was just a train wreck, and he cured a lot of those ills. 

Zac, on the other hand, came into the worst offensive line this side of Tallahassee that I've ever seen. They she'll shocked Dalton, and got our rookie clobbered. That's why Marvin was losing, and that's the biggest reason Zac hasn't won more, IMO. You couple that with a complete scheme and roster overhaul, you get the shit show you see now. We should see pretty good gains this year if we stay healthy up front. I mean, the offense was beginning to click before Burrow went down with him running for his life, and no run game. If not, you shitcan him. That simple.

You simply can't win at this game if you can't block. That's pee wee all the way to the NFL.

Yeah the line was better, but Zac had 2 offseasons to reshape it. His initial o-line hire was a disaster. He added no one of note in free agency.

Marvin reshaped that roster instantly. There was almost no one left from that 2002 defense.

That's my point. Marvin identified the issues and fixed them. Zac is still trying...and we'll see if he's learned his lesson on draft night.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-22-2021, 03:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah the line was better, but Zac had 2 offseasons to reshape it. His initial o-line hire was a disaster. He added no one of note in free agency.

Marvin reshaped that roster instantly. There was almost no one left from that 2002 defense.

That's my point. Marvin identified the issues and fixed them. Zac is still trying...and we'll see if he's learned his lesson on draft night.

They didn't do much of anything in year 1 under Taylor. Years 2 and 3 have seen some action. But seriously, the worst oline in the NFL, Marvin had Willie, Levi, Steiny, Rich, and Bobbie. Look at this shit we've trotted out there the last 3 or 4 seasons. Marvin was losing with em too. 2015 draft killed this team due to their own inaction rectifying it.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 03:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: They didn't do much of anything in year 1 under Taylor. Years 2 and 3 have seen some action. But seriously, the worst oline in the NFL, Marvin had Willie, Levi, Steiny, Rich, and Bobbie. Look at this shit we've trotted out there the last 3 or 4 seasons. Marvin was losing with em too. 2015 draft killed this team due to their own inaction rectifying it.

okay so i'll throw my hat in here....so when you talk about the OL back then, when Marvin came to Cincy they drafted Steiny, Rich Brahm was played at guard and center and really didnt have a position and EVERYONE complained about Levi Jones at LT.  So when Marvin was hired the pieces may have been there but Marvin and that coaching staff are ones who assembled the pieces and put them where they needed to go.  

As I said in another post, i truly believe after the playoff loss in 2015 to the Steelers that Marvin just didn't put as much effort into the draft as he previously had.  He was mentally done.  He should've left or been let go after 2015, but he had 3 more season of letting the roster deteriorate. 

I truly believe, if not for the self scouting by Marvin and his coaching staff those teams would've NEVER had the talent they had.  I mean look at the talent we draft since 2015.  That says it for itself.  Last year we got a cant miss QB and the #33 pick, which should be pretty damn near cant miss.  The rest of the draft class we'll wait 3 years and see what we have.  

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 03:43 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: They didn't do much of anything in year 1 under Taylor. Years 2 and 3 have seen some action. But seriously, the worst oline in the NFL, Marvin had Willie, Levi, Steiny, Rich, and Bobbie. Look at this shit we've trotted out there the last 3 or 4 seasons. Marvin was losing with em too. 2015 draft killed this team due to their own inaction rectifying it.

Different bad teams, different problems. Marvin had a good line, but took over an awful defense and had Kitna at QB. He had to identify the hidden gems like Housh and Rudi, both of which did nothing before Marv. They signed around 5 defensive starters that first year.

John Thornton. Duane Clemons. Tory James. Kevin Hardy. Rogers Beckett.

He brought in good coaches like Leslie Frazier and Hue Jackson.

Zac has littered his staff with poor resumes (at least he righted the wrong with Pollack). I don't know why we didn't sign anyone good that first year, but maybe he should've pushed harder for some players on the line. Instead, he defended our line publicly.

He's had (now) 3 offseasons to do what Marv accomplished right away...which was identify the issue and plug in better players. Merv's strength was always identifying talent. I havent seen that with Zac yet.

[Shake n Blake]

I just realized that I used to argue that Marv got too much credit for personnel decisions because Tobin drafted Chad, Housh Rudi and Justin.

I do think Marv was pulling the strings on those free agency signings though. But as for the draft, it's hard telling between he and Tobin.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 04:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I just realized that I used to argue that Marv got too much credit for personnel decisions because Tobin drafted Chad, Housh Rudi and Justin.

I do think Marv was pulling the strings on those free agency signings though. But as for the draft, it's hard telling between he and Tobin.

Well I mean what's the draft been like without Marvin?  just sayin....

Tobin makes the decisions and the worst decision this organization has ever made was letting Whit walk. 

I truly think that was the end of the road for Marvin in Cincinnati.   

i think Marvin wanted Whit to stay and when the organization let him walk at the end of 2016 thats when the losing started.  

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 04:17 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Well I mean what's the draft been like without Marvin?  just sayin....

Tobin makes the decisions and the worst decision this organization has ever made was letting Whit walk. 

I truly think that was the end of the road for Marvin in Cincinnati.   

i think Marvin wanted Whit to stay and when the organization let him walk at the end of 2016 thats when the losing started.  

Drafts have been doo doo, I admit. Still, Tobin has been "GM" for 20+ years, which is unprecedented. He may have been good in 2001, but awful in 2017. Who knows?

I don't think dumping Whit was a bad move. Not without hindsight benefit. He was 35. How could anyone know he'd be the exception to the aging rule?

The real mistake there (IMO) is that we hadn't fired Paul Alexander way sooner, and we were instead giving him power in the draft, which led to Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine all busting.

That made moving on from Whit a disaster.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 04:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Drafts have been doo doo, I admit. Still, Tobin has been "GM" for 20+ years, which is unprecedented. He may have been good in 2001, but awful in 2017. Who knows?

I don't think dumping Whit was a bad move. Not without hindsight benefit. He was 35. How could anyone know he'd be the exception to the aging rule?

The real mistake there (IMO) is that we hadn't fired Paul Alexander way sooner, and we were instead giving him power in the draft, which led to Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine all busting.

That made moving on from Whit a disaster.

Listen I'm not a Paul Alexander fan either.

If you look at the Bengals drafting of OL all the way back until 2002, Levi Jones was taken in 2002, then Steinbach in 2003, and after that it was pretty much a bunch of crap.  Ghiaciuc was drafted in 2005 and was poor center, then didnt have another impact offensive lineman until Andre Smith in 2009, then Boling in 2011, and Zietler in 2012.  

So prior to their current run of ineffective, overrated OL they had drafted pretty good on the OL and Alexander was a part of that.  

Alexander was let go after the 2017 season and if we really look at this team's drafts the last 4 years has the OL they drafted really hit with the expection of Jonah and that's only if he can stay healthy.  He'll be a steady piece but not elite.  

[Shake n Blake]

(04-22-2021, 05:01 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Listen I'm not a Paul Alexander fan either.

If you look at the Bengals drafting of OL all the way back until 2002, Levi Jones was taken in 2002, then Steinbach in 2003, and after that it was pretty much a bunch of crap.  Ghiaciuc was drafted in 2005 and was poor center, then didnt have another impact offensive lineman until Andre Smith in 2009, then Boling in 2011, and Zietler in 2012.  

So prior to their current run of ineffective, overrated OL they had drafted pretty good on the OL and Alexander was a part of that.  

Alexander was let go after the 2017 season and if we really look at this team's drafts the last 4 years has the OL they drafted really hit with the expection of Jonah and that's only if he can stay healthy.  He'll be a steady piece but not elite.  

Thing is, I don't know how much Paul banged the table for any of those good players, but it was well publicized that he did lobby hard for his last few guys, who were all terrible. IMO, we should've fired PA because the run game was terrible for many, many years.

Sure the pass blocking was decent (not amazing) from 2003-2015 (with the exception of 2008-2010)...but our run game was completely ineffective for a staggering amount of years:

YPC rankings:
2006- 25th
2007- 28th
2008- 30th
2009- 24th
2010- 32nd
2011- 27th
2012- 20th
2013- 28th
2014- 12th
2015- 23rd
2016- 23rd
2017- 29th

Average rank for 12 years: 25th

This for a team - under Marvin - that was big on running the football. During this same span, our average rank in rush attempts was 14th. So we were - for the most part - a run first team that struggled to run the football. That's why I wanted Paul Alexander gone.

Lo and behold, in our first year without PA, the team jumped to 8th in YPC, which was our best ranking since 2000.

Thankfully we got Pollack back, because Jim Turner was bad at everything.

------------

All of this said, our o-line drafting has been bad since PA left, with guys like Billy Price. Jonah has been "ok". That's kinda why I want the "can't miss" guy in Penei Sewell. We do have Pollack back, so give him a top piece to mold and lets go.

[TJ528]

(04-22-2021, 05:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Thing is, I don't know how much Paul banged the table for any of those good players, but it was well publicized that he did lobby hard for his last few guys, who were all terrible. IMO, we should've fired PA because the run game was terrible for many, many years.

Sure the pass blocking was decent (not amazing) from 2003-2015 (with the exception of 2008-2010)...but our run game was completely ineffective for a staggering amount of years:

YPC rankings:
2006- 25th
2007- 28th
2008- 30th
2009- 24th
2010- 32nd
2011- 27th
2012- 20th
2013- 28th
2014- 12th
2015- 23rd
2016- 23rd
2017- 29th

Average rank for 12 years: 25th

This for a team - under Marvin - that was big on running the football. During this same span, our average rank in rush attempts was 14th. So we were - for the most part - a run first team that struggled to run the football. That's why I wanted Paul Alexander gone.

Lo and behold, in our first year without PA, the team jumped to 8th in YPC, which was our best ranking since 2000.

Thankfully we got Pollack back, because Jim Turner was bad at everything.

------------

All of this said, our o-line drafting has been bad since PA left, with guys like Billy Price. Jonah has been "ok". That's kinda why I want the "can't miss" guy in Penei Sewell. We do have Pollack back, so give him a top piece to mold and lets go.

so one thing I noticed about Pollack is when he came to Cincy in 17 their final ranking in rushing yards per game was 31st and in 2018 was 21st. Ironically, 2019 the Jets were 31st and on 2020 were 22nd....

I couldn't tell you the last time we had a good run game with exception of 2014.

I do agree that PA should've been canned a long time ago but again there is the loyalty to a coaching staff shown by Mike Brown.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

[PDub80]

(04-22-2021, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But let me make a wild guess here.  Zac had NOTHING to do with the way the Bengals behavef in the Dolphins game last year.

What? No, of course he did. Why put words in my mouth? Oh, wait, the arrogance. That's why.

The question is, do I have a problem with what Mike Thomas did? NO. I actually do NOT. After the Dolphins hit Boyd with cheap shots out of bounds and the refs didn't call it and threw Boyd out.... Mike Thomas let the Dolphins know what the deal would be. GOOD.

I wish the Bengals would have done the same thing when Rivers had his jaw broken for no reason.... and Huber for that matter.

Did I have a problem with Whitworth laying the wood to the Jags or the Raiders for cheap shots? NO. Am I mad at AJ Green for suplexing Jalen Ramsey? NO. Am I mad at Marvin for any of that? NO. All 3 of those instances (Dolphins, Raiders, Jags x2) are way different than what happened in the playoff game in 2015.

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 01:27 PM)PDub80 Wrote: ZT's roster was crap when he got here. Why was ZT hired in the first place? Because Marvin was losing with these guys... HIS guys. And they weren't young, up and coming studs ... like they were when Marvin got here. They were broken down, aged horses who's best years were left on a race track somewhere in 2015.

So these guys were "broken down"

Joe Mixon
Tyler Boyd
Sam Hubbard
Jesse Bates
William Jackson
Carl Lawson
Geno Atkins (10 sack, 13 TFL, 18 QB hits, Pro Bowl season in 2018)
Carlos Dunlap (8 sacks 21 QB hits in 2018, 9 sacks 21 QB hits in 2019, 6 sacks, 14 QB hits in just 8 games with Seattle last year)


And you know all the "great talent" you claim Marvin inherited?  Well they were not great players before Marvin came along and started coaching them.  And Marvin won 6 games with that "worst roster ever" that you claim he handed over to Zac.  Then after Zac had 2 years to rebuild the roster he won only 4 games.

[Joelist]

Let's be real here - Marvin inherited a team where the build was fairly far along. Yes he did well in getting needed additional parts but a lot of the base was already there. And on defense his defenses sucked until we brought in Mike Zimmer, who got the defense on track (and part of it was changing the types of players we were looking for).

[fredtoast]

(04-22-2021, 06:56 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  All 3 of those instances (Dolphins, Raiders, Jags x2) are way different than what happened in the playoff game in 2015.

Did you say "playoff game"?

Yeah, that sure proves that Zac is the better coach.  

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think it would be silly to try to argue that Zac has done a better job so far than Marvin did through two seasons. Marvin inherited a bigger mess (yes, 2-14 instead of 6-10) and managed two 8-8s including with a first-overall-pick QB in most of the second season.

That doesn't mean Taylor is permanent garbage, but he has much to prove. He's going to have the opportunity, so there's little else to say about it frankly. At least some of the core players seem to love him, and I think it's plainly evident that they are genuine in that feeling and aren't just defaulting to canned optimism. I hope they're right.

If the team takes a shit again in 2021, his popularity among the players may start to intersect his popularity among the fans more than it does now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, I hope this doesn't have people pining for the Marvin days. Whether Taylor fails or succeeds, the Bengals had to try. They'll try again if they must.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-20-2021, 10:47 PM)Big Boss Wrote: This is like word alcohol.

My thoughts exactly lol

You also nailed it on your second post, the pick is going to be Chase so people need to stop crying about it. We can fix the OL and 
add 2 starters in the 2nd to 4th rounds and add a developmental pick like Spencer Brown to learn behind Reiff. The Reiff film don't 
lie, he is a top OT in the NFL and Sewell isn't beating him out unless we have injuries to him or Jonah (knock on wood).

[BengalsRocker]

(04-22-2021, 11:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Some of us have a tendency to idolize players, but I'm not sure I want a 24 year old Gen Y'er who happens to be BFF with a top prospect to be making GM decisions for the franchise...and shame on the Bengals if they let themselves be swayed by the opinion of said 24 year old.

Joe Burrow is a great young QB, but he isn't thinking about Reiff being on a 1 year deal. He isn't thinking about 4-5 years down the road and whether or not we'll be able to pay himself, Chase and Higgins big contracts... for guys all associated with one aspect of a team game.

He's not thinking if Reiff can successfully slide inside or not. Or whether we will have enough balls to supply Mixon, Chase, Higgins and Boyd. He's not considering that we threw way more than we rightfully should have last year, and that we shouldn't be fully replacing AJ Green's 100 targets because Mixon should be healthy this year.

He isn't trying to figure out if a speed guy will be available in the 2nd round. Or if some of these inferior o-line prospects who fit our scheme will be better than the WR prospects available.

Those considerations are for Duke Tobin, Zac Taylor and this front office. Hopefully these guys do their jobs and let Burrow do his.

He's not, and they've made some bad decisions all on their own for years.

It's not like Burrow picked Zac frickin' Taylor to be his HC... or those losers they hired to even run the offense for Dalton at the end of his tenure.

Heck I'd personally be inclined to listen to this "kid" over some of the shitshow decisions our current think tank have made in the recent past.

If Burrow really is "BFF" with the perceived #1 WR in the upcoming draft is it such a bad thing?

You can't get a better endorsement than from a fine young man in Burrow who knows Chase's character, work ethic, and lastly shares chemistry too.

He might not be thinking about all those things you stated but with Chase he really truly is the known over the unknown prospect.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-22-2021, 07:24 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: He's not, and they've made some bad decisions all on their own for years.

It's not like Burrow picked Zac frickin' Taylor to be his HC... or those losers they hired to even run the offense for Dalton at the end of his tenure.

Heck I'd personally be inclined to listen to this "kid" over some of the shitshow decisions our current think tank have made in the recent past.

If Burrow really is "BFF" with the perceived #1 WR in the upcoming draft is it such a bad thing?

You can't get a better endorsement than from a fine young man in Burrow who knows Chase's character, work ethic, and lastly shares chemistry too.

He might not be thinking about all those things you stated but with Chase he really truly is the known over the unknown prospect.

Yes, Chase will make the biggest impact immediately for us and Burrow knows it clearly. He ain't scurred.

Deep Draft for OL and we need interior help along with a talent to learn behind the OT's. Great Draft for it man.