Serious Question about OL talent in round 2.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-25-2021, 02:47 AM)Whatever Wrote: One thing you touched on that's way different than most NFL teams operate is KC is not afraid of trading away draft picks, while most GM's cling to them.  One thing I've been screaming all off-season is that the Saints are in cap hell and both their starting T's are FA's next year, so they're practically guaranteed to lose one. Make a strong offer for Ryan Ramcyk. Maybe not before the draft if you're going Pitts or Chase so as not to show your hand, but after you turn in the card, get them on the phone and offer next year's 1st for him.  

The other thing about KC's offense is it's pretty much built around Hill and Kelce and they supplement it with the supporting cast.  And they get speed for their WR corps.  They have 3 WR's on that offense that run sub 4.4.  When you have 2 elite weapons like Hill and Kelce and surround them with guys that are not necessarily great, but can take it to the house any time you forget about them, it makes for a very dangerous offense.  They get huge chunk plays, which lessens Mahomes' exposure to the pass rush vs an offense like ours where Burrow has to get 5-6 1st downs before getting it in the end zone.  

Make this pretty simple when these three things come together below this could maybe be a conversation until then lets operate with the reality we faced which I put clear and straight forward in my previous post about the possible starting unit THIS YEAR on opening day or shortly there after because we are not near KC and if we don;t keep Burrow healthy we will never not even have a chance on that roadmap.

A.  When Burrow shows he is as great as Mahomes, we can discuss Oline philosophy 
B.  When the majority of other teams have a QB like Mahomes and follow what KC is doing
C.  When Mahomes has a injury like Burrow and lets see if KC continues down what they are doing
PS:  They did just trade for a top end tackle... 

[Essex Johnson]

(04-25-2021, 03:19 AM)Burma Wrote: Oh, I missed that medical combine news.  That really stinks for him. I know he had been pegged for Baltimore in the 1st for quite awhile, wondering if they or other WR needy teams will pass on him twice or even 3 times.  I couldn't find any details on the severity in my limited searching so no clue if he messed his foot or leg up again.

I don;t see it as serious as some make out since he only missed three weeks in 2019 and the other injury was out of HS.. how he has performed since 2019 injury and his excellent pro day.. I hope he does slide and Bengals take him.  Most teams unless they have no scout staff totally knew about the minor injury in 2019 (out 3 weeks with surgery is minor) and some of a H.S. injury which obviously did not deter LSU from signing him.  With that said, no way he would have been discussed in 1st/2nd round since the word would have been out this was a major concern. 

 If it would have happen this season and we had no tape on him after recovery yep he would not be taken in 2nd round but his production and pro day makes that less of a concern.. we see this every year in the draft and since so many college players also have injury history (lets not forget most have been playing football for over 10 years) unless it is recent or inhibits them in workouts it does not hurt their draft prospect that much. 

[BURROWorBUST]

(04-24-2021, 11:58 PM)Burma Wrote: Williams in on the roster. That's all you can really say at this point for a guy who has played in only 11 games in 2 seasons, and in 2 of those games he had to leave due to injury.

If you are anticipating having an opening at one or both OT in the next year or 2 why wouldn't you get the best OT you can now and let them compete for the job and move the loser to G? 2 birds with 1 stone.

I know. That's a strong argument for Sewell. Seriously. It's going to be interesting to see if they adopt that kind of logic, or if they want to wait until later rounds or next year to find a replacement for Rief. Do they gamble that someone will be there at 38?

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 08:20 AM)CoachGeorge Wrote: What has KC done really?.  They’ve replaced 2 pro bowl players with 2 other pro bowl players.  One is a 1 year rental and the other was a significant overpay.  The lost a center and replaced him in what could only be described as a slight upgrade.  And they got an aged injury prone guard who signed for a 1.1 mil base salary high on incentives which sounds like a move that Bengals fans would frown on if Tobin did that.

Brown is a terrific run-blocking LT who will be asked to drop into pass protection at a far higher rate and deeper sets than he ever has.  Tunney, the 10th best guard via PFF will be asked to excel outside of New England on a new team with high expectations. That’s a lot of moving pieces for a position group that heavily relies on continuity and chemistry.  

Will it work out?  Maybe or maybe not.  I am pretty sure they would have much preferred to not have to make all these moves in the middle of PM unbelievable run.

First post nailed it.  Rep.

I was going to add that even if the Chiefs were picking #1 overall, it is still not a guaranteed talent whereas the FA have proven it in this league.
As far as why those "plug and play" guys will be there around 38 (and I wouldn't call them plug and play...they will have to prove in camp and an abbreviated preseason they can handle it) is more a reflection of the talent at QB, WR, TE, CB, and to a much lesser extent, DT/DE. 

Think of it this way:  If Eichenberg is rated a 80 as a prospect, he might be the 40th ranked player overall, as there could be 39 players ranked higher than 80.  Positional value always factors in.  No one is spending a pick at 38 on a kicker just because he is an 80 prospect, unless you are the Jets of a few years ago. 

Those tackles that the Bengals will be likely sorting through have "holes" in their game.  So does Sewell.  The question becomes can the team overcome/coach that hole out of the player and do they fit what they are hoping for at that position.  Even though more and more DEs line up over the RT, the LT position still commands a premium over the RT position.  If not completely in reality, at least largely in perception.  Look at Willie Anderson.  I think he is a no doubt HOF if he played at LT all those years with his stats.  Regardless, there are guys more suited to be RTs because they may be a bit better at push than pull...meaning the RT usually is a road grader and might struggle with speed outside if put at LT.  That isn't to say that he can't handle speed at all, but he might be more geared as a RT due to his other STRENGTH, which is run blocking.  Spencer Brown (who I have a serious man crush on) played RT in college and although I think he has the movement and length to be a LT, I would rather keep him at RT and develop him behind Reiff.  I would absolutely take him in the 3rd of they went Guard in the 2nd, but I think it is more realistic they get an OT like Leatherwood or Eichenberg in Rd 2 and the guard in Rd 3.  

All that being said, Miami has a lefty QB, so RT is going to be their premium position.  

One last comment, only because you brought up Orlando Brown.  I pissed and moaned about this for years now.  I wanted him SO BADLY despite his horrible combine, which he admitted he didn't prepare for at all.  Amazing value where we could have had him, but we drafted an athletic LB from Texas that never did a damn thing.  Puke.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 01:12 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: My personal opinion is that you always make sure that you have a line in front of a franchise QB.  We don't have that and there is a guy  at 5 that would seriously upgrade that.

I also feel that there is a major drop-off between Sewell and tier 3 guys.  I put Slater and Sewell in tier 1, Darrisaw in Tier 2, and the rest of the fringe round 1/2 in tier 3.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but do you believe if they get an OT in Rd 2 and a G in Rd 3, that they still haven't made sure they "have a line"?

It seems so extreme with the pro-Sewell crowd that if you don't take him, you are ignoring the need.  

They would likely have something like this opening day:

Jonah in year 2 at LT
XSF/Spain at LG, quality depth if one goes down, and both of their natural position.
Hopkins/Price at C
Likely 2nd round draft pick (developmental RT prospect or Reiff with pick staying outside)
Riley Reiff at RT

You have Akeem Adeniji as the first tackle off the bench.  You would likely have a 3rd round selection as the backup RG with a year to ease in to the position.  

I know a lot will depend on the quality of the 2nd and 3rd round selections, but I simply don't see this option as not having "a line".  I think it will be pretty solid, and even better with Pollack.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 01:49 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: We can fill this draft with playmakers in rounds 2-7 as well.  The priority of keeping a great line in front of Burrow for some reason has taken a back seat - again.

Sure, we can bring in Tier 3 guys to play O-line, but we've seen how that works out.  At this point, I'd be happy with whoever we get.  But it just baffles me how during the season and even during last year's draft it was imperative to follow the blueprint to building around a franchise QB (protect him being priority #1) and the team ignored it.

My worry, is not that they take Chase at 5, but that they take a CB or Edge in round 2.  Then they take a DT in round 3.  And then we are right back where we started.

Absolutely no way this happens. I understand they have done some strange things before, but not this draft, and not after last year.  We don't need to overthink this.  It isn't all on the feet of Bobby Hart, but his position has already been upgraded.

The REAL issue last year on the offensive line was two places:  LG with Mike Jordan, who at least was consistent in his horrible play, and RG, where they lost XSF very early in the year.  Mike Jordan and the revolving door at RG was the issue, by and large.  That has ALREADY been addressed with XSF being healthy and having Spain competing for the LG position and he was able to plug the hole at RG for a while last year.  Depth was paper-thin with them, so the Bengals will clearly be adding to the mix at RG with a fairly early draft pick this season.  People poo-poo the 3rd round picks as not being much better talent than the 4th round picks, but they forget the compensatory picks that come at the end of Rd 3 and there are quite a few players between those selections.  A guy like Meinerz, Cleveland, or Brown will likely be there for the Bengals in Rd 3 to fill out the RG position and they will have already used their 2nd round player on a developmental RT.  I know people will say it is too early, but I LOVE Spencer Brown here.  I think that much of the kid that I would use pick 38 on him and get my RG in Rd 3. 

The Bengals have, historically, done very well in the 4th round or later with defensive line selections.  They could also package their 5th round pick and one of their 6th rounders to move back in to the 4th if there is a player they really covet.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 02:12 PM)Burma Wrote: What more does he need? He has 2 2nd round picks at WR who can ball, a 2nd round pick at TE who we were lead to believe was the real deal, a 2nd round pick at RB who would have been a 1st but couldn't resist punching a girl, and the #1 QB prospect in a long time.  That is more than a ton of teams have now. Do the Bengals need to get all 1st round picks so Taylor's offense can work as intended? If so then he is not a good coach and has shown he is incapable of adapting his scheme to best use the ample talent on the team. Look no further than the fact that Pitts, the best TE prospect in a long time, is not even really in consideration for the Bengals. If his infatuation with 11 personel is so rigid he can't figure out how to use Sample and Pitts effectively he is a shit coach in over his head.   I am willing to bet there are many coaches out there who would jump at the chance to run the Bengals and be more successful.

Not trying to be a Richard, but look no further than what happened when they played the best defenses in their division:  Boyd and Higgins couldn't get separation and Burrow was a sitting duck with no options.  They have the depth in the back end and we had no answer.  That is what Chase can provide:  Near immediate separation and deep ball threat.  If you are going to run 11 personnel, you need an alpha...not a handful of betas.  That isn't intended to disrespect Boyd or Higgins, but that isn't what they provide.  They will eat VERY well with Chase on the field.  

Peyton Manning had an unstoppable offense for many years in Indy.  He was smart enough and could identify the matchups (or I should say, mismatches) quickly and they simply felt their 3rd or 4th best receiving option was better than your 3rd or 4th best cover option.  They had ALL FIRST ROUNDERS in Harrison, Wayne, and Clark catching passes for Manning.  Giving Burrow a true #1 isn't burying the guy under an embarrassment of riches, it is building the offense that best suits the strengths of the QB.  

[Au165]

This comes back to my post in another thread, there are really good interior options on day 2. If you want a plug and play tackle it’s not there but that’s okay because that’s not what we need right now at this second. There are tackles however that could be ready with a year of learning, so assuming Reiff and Williams stay healthy we are still in a good situation to get our tackle of the future maybe even in the 3rd.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 03:24 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Let us pray.  I just can't believe how bad Price has been in the NFL.  Major disappointment to me.

No doubt.  I was so excited about his selection.  I thought he would be a stalwart for years to come.  Granted, he sure had a bumpy start to his career and foot injuries are killers to linemen, but he has been a major disappointment, for sure.  I am still hoping (and praying) that Price can have a resurgence under Pollack.  Not likely, but stranger things have happened.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 05:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Of that group, I'd be happy with Jenkins.  I feel like he is the underrated sleeper of the top Tackle prospects in this draft.  He is going to be a mean SOB at RT for many years.  However, everything that I've been hearing and reading lately has him going late in the 1st round.  Eichenburg and Leatherwood may be fine, if allowed to ease into their NFL roles.  Radunz looks to have a high ceiling, but I also feel he will need a year or so of developmental time.

Also agree with you about Wyatt Davis.  I'm a Buckeye fan, and I still can't figure out what all the draft hype on this kid is for.

WIth you 100% on Jenkins.  My hope is the so-called "RT Projection" has him fall to us at #38.  That would be a dream.  

Chase
Jenkins
Meinerz
Spencer Brown

I would literally get a tattoo of Duke Tobin's likeness on my butt cheek if our first four rounds looked like that.  Yes, I know it is all offense.  The FA has been almost all defense.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-24-2021, 05:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The truth is that the Bengals should double down on OL, in two of the first 3 picks.  However, fantasy football has jaded so many to believe that the way to create a strong team is weapons, weapons, weapons.  The reality of the matter is that the team with all the good weapons lost the Superbowl, because their OL was weak that day, and couldn't protect their franchise QB..

I believe they absolutely will double down, in Rounds 2 and 3.  That isn't really a fair assessment of what happened to the Chiefs.  They had pro bowl talent on their line out injured.  No team has offensive line Pro Bowlers in reserve.  

[Hammerstripes]

(04-25-2021, 12:55 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: WIth you 100% on Jenkins.  My hope is the so-called "RT Projection" has him fall to us at #38.  That would be a dream.  

Chase
Jenkins
Meinerz
Spencer Brown

I would literally get a tattoo of Duke Tobin's likeness on my butt cheek if our first four rounds looked like that.  Yes, I know it is all offense.  The FA has been almost all defense.  

I think after Darrisaw goes off the board, these RT types are going to come off pretty quick in picks 20-38

[Whatever]

(04-25-2021, 09:59 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Make this pretty simple when these three things come together  below this could maybe be a conversation until then lets operate with the reality we faced which I put clear and straight forward in my previous post about the possible starting unit THIS YEAR on opening day or shortly there after because we are not near KC and if we don;t keep Burrow healthy we will never not even have a chance on that roadmap.

A.  When Burrow shows he is as great as Mahomes, we can discuss Oline philosophy 
B.  When the majority of other teams have a QB like Mahomes and follow what KC is doing
C.  When Mahomes has a injury like Burrow and lets see if KC continues down what they are doing
PS:  They did just trade for a top end tackle... 

This is amazing!  All off-season, I've heard over and over again that we should build like the Patriots and put a great OL in front of Burrow and he will make decent WR's look good...like Tom Brady.  Literally the GoaT.

Now, if you bring up KC's philosophy, you can't compare Burrow to Mahomes.

There are literally months between now and opening day.  Nobody buys this weak scare tactic.  Since you like quoting trends so much, there's a better chance of your prophesy happening if we take Sewell because you're ignoring our trend of 1st round picks getting injured and missing their rookie years.  If we want to fix the OL, we should draft 1 in 2 and 1 in 4, because our track records with 2nd and 4th round picks is better than our 1st's.

[Whatever]

(04-25-2021, 12:36 PM)Au165 Wrote: This comes back to my post in another thread, there are really good interior options on day 2. If you want a plug and play tackle it’s not there but that’s okay because that’s not what we need right now at this second. There are tackles however that could be ready with a year of learning, so assuming Reiff and Williams stay healthy we are still in a good situation to get our tackle of the future maybe even in the 3rd.

I personally really like Spencer Brown in 3.  He's a year out from starting, but he has all the tools and his athletic testing is off the charts.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-25-2021, 12:07 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't mean to hijack this thread, but do you believe if they get an OT in Rd 2 and a G in Rd 3, that they still haven't made sure they "have a line"?

It seems so extreme with the pro-Sewell crowd that if you don't take him, you are ignoring the need.  

They would likely have something like this opening day:

Jonah in year 2 at LT
XSF/Spain at LG, quality depth if one goes down, and both of their natural position.
Hopkins/Price at C
Likely 2nd round draft pick (developmental RT prospect or Reiff with pick staying outside)
Riley Reiff at RT

You have Akeem Adeniji as the first tackle off the bench.  You would likely have a 3rd round selection as the backup RG with a year to ease in to the position.  

I know a lot will depend on the quality of the 2nd and 3rd round selections, but I simply don't see this option as not having "a line".  I think it will be pretty solid, and even better with Pollack.  

I think if they take Chase it's not that they'll be ignoring the Oline but I just think it's the bigger need for the team. I think they definitely can upgrade the line in RDs 2 & 3 but it's just more of a risk because there could be a run on OL and the bengals could find themselves having to reach down the board to grab one. I don't think they'd ignore it in both rds but easily could in one of them to grab a DE that has fallen. 

I do think Pollack will make a big difference especially in the running game. I've watched alot of football but I am no expert on the offensive line blocking schemes. But when we first drafted Mixon I didn't like his production/running style. Then the last few games he really came on and that continued thru his 2nd season. Then Taylor came in and I thought he had the blueprint to run the ball atleast but I was shocked how bad our run game was the first 8 games of his first season. One game in particular Mixon had 20yds rushing. Then the last game 8 games something changed and he was 2nd in rushing only behind Derrick Henry. Then this past year outside of the Jacksonville game we were terrible again. Then he got injured of course. I just wonder if Mixon thrives behind a certain type of blocking scheme but Turner didn't want to run that because it wasn't his preferred scheme. Not sure if anyone else noticed this?

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-25-2021, 02:40 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I think after Darrisaw goes off the board, these RT types are going to come off pretty quick in picks 20-38

Quite possible, Hammer, but there will also be a lot of highly rated WRs, CBs, and DEs that will be equally sought after.  After we take Chase, we want to hope for a run on those positions :)

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-25-2021, 04:20 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I think if they take Chase it's not that they'll be ignoring the Oline but I just think it's the bigger need for the team. I think they definitely can upgrade the line in RDs 2 & 3 but it's just more of a risk because there could be a run on OL and the bengals could find themselves having to reach down the board to grab one. I don't think they'd ignore it in both rds but easily could in one of them to grab a DE that has fallen. 

I do think Pollack will make a big difference especially in the running game. I've watched alot of football but I am no expert on the offensive line blocking schemes. But when we first drafted Mixon I didn't like his production/running style. Then the last few games he really came on and that continued thru his 2nd season. Then Taylor came in and I thought he had the blueprint to run the ball atleast but I was shocked how bad our run game was the first 8 games of his first season. One game in particular Mixon had 20yds rushing. Then the last game 8 games something changed and he was 2nd in rushing only behind Derrick Henry. Then this past year outside of the Jacksonville game we were terrible again. Then he got injured of course. I just wonder if Mixon thrives behind a certain type of blocking scheme but Turner didn't want to run that because it wasn't his preferred scheme. Not sure if anyone else noticed this?

I noticed it.  A lot of us did.  Joe Mixon did....as he averaged 5 YPC under Pollack last time and that wasn't a HOF roster, either.  

[Hammerstripes]

While I don't think the tackle talent is great in round 2, I do think that if we go Chase, the OG talent in round 2 is great.

I know people keep looking at OT, but the reality is that we have Hopkins coming off an ACL and one of the lower ranked groups of interior linemen. IF (and I wouldn't) we go Chase in the first, I'd go back to back OG/C hopefully getting guys like Humphery, MEritz, Smith and Davis. That would definitely inject some much needed talent into the O-line.

I actually like our depth with guys like Adenji, Johnson and Price that stepped in and played decent for short stretches. It's the front line guys we need.,

[sandwedge]

(04-25-2021, 05:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: While I don't think the tackle talent is great in round 2, I do think that if we go Chase, the OG talent in round 2 is great.

I know people keep looking at OT, but the reality is that we have Hopkins coming off an ACL and one of the lower ranked groups of interior linemen.  IF (and I wouldn't) we go Chase in the first, I'd go back to back OG/C hopefully getting guys like Humphery, MEritz, Smith and Davis.  That would definitely inject some much needed talent into the O-line.

I actually like our depth with guys like Adenji, Johnson and Price that stepped in and played decent for short stretches.  It's the front line guys we need.,

Great take! I have said before, I'm 51% Sewell and 49% Chase, now I'm pretty 50/50. Either way I will be ecstatic. 2nd round is going to be something to watch!

[BengalsRocker]

(04-25-2021, 12:38 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: No doubt.  I was so excited about his selection.  I thought he would be a stalwart for years to come.  Granted, he sure had a bumpy start to his career and foot injuries are killers to linemen, but he has been a major disappointment, for sure.  I am still hoping (and praying) that Price can have a resurgence under Pollack.  Not likely, but stranger things have happened.  

While I wasn't 100% sure about his physical capabilities at the next level I thought he had the mental capacity to up his game.

Watching him break down college game tape and comprehending assignments had me excited.

Perhaps it's just he had a mix of injuries, bad coaching, bad luck...  or...  he just sucks.

I wish the best for the guy but I won't be his cheerleader if he doesn't improve because of OSU either.