2021 Offseason - Overall Thoughts

[XenoMorph]

(05-06-2021, 09:47 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And as Lapham has recently been saying:  It is all about "No Donkeys".  You can't have one turd on the line or the whole line suffers.  That seems to be the biggest improvement.  Yes, Carman should be a massive upgrade over the turd storm we rolled out there for much of the season at RG, but the floor of the entire line is massively improved when Jordan is on the bench and you have both XSF and Spain competing for the LG spot.  Jonah in year 3 (year two of actually playing) and a seasoned vet in Reiff.  

I am not as worried about center as much.  With Hopkins, he was pretty solid with turds next to him, and Price loves the style of Pollack.  If he has to start a few games, I am not worried at all and I think it would go a long way to helping Price mentally.  He would still likely be the first guard off the bench as well.   From what I understand, it looks like Hopkins will be ready week 1. 

They go from two really questionable players at guard (Jordan and Redmond/Johnson) to XSF/Spain competition at LG and Carman at RG.  Add Reiff, a solid veteran that seems to love Burrow to replace the enigmatic Hart, and you have a line with a much higher floor than a year ago.  

a unit is only as strong as its weakest link 
(this isnt just a football thing)

[*ochocincos*]

(05-03-2021, 01:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Honestly, that’s all Burrow and these weapons should need. We know Mixon can be productive behind even a well below average OL (led the AFC in rushing in 18). But give Joe average OL play and these WR’s should feast.

Indeed.
Going into the 2020 season, Tampa Bay's OL was ranked typically in the 10-15 range.
We know that by the end of the season, they got into the Top 10 on some rankings, but they definitely weren't as elite as some other OLs.
And they ended up winning the SB.

So yes, you can go far with just an "average" OL as long as you have a good QB, weapons, and playcalling.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-06-2021, 09:58 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: a unit is only as strong as its weakest link 
(this isnt just a football thing)

The weakest link will be the IOL.
I have optimism for Carman until I see him in games to make me think otherwise, so I'll lean toward whoever wins between XSF and Spain as the weakest link.
With that said, XSF is good in pass protection, and Spain will have a full offseason to learn the system instead of getting thrust in mid-season like last year.
Hopkins is also very good in pass protection, but he's really bad in the run game.
Honestly, almost the entire OL is bad in the run game, but it could have been partly due to how bad Turner was. Pollack's scheme might help them get on track.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(05-05-2021, 03:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure are acting like Ossai and Carman are just shit aren't you? I also think Reiff and Hilton are top tier at their positions, Reiff
gave up less sacks then Thuney and Orlando Brown last season and had less penalties. Hilton might be the best blitzing Slot 
Corner in the NFL right now.

WR depth is more of a concern to me the more I look at it after seeing our luck with 1st rounders over the years.

Ossai, Sample, and Shelvin are mid round picks (3rd/4th) with potential. None are going to be starters. They all will make the team. Those are depth guys. Perhaps they develop into starters or remain solid depth guys, or perhaps they never pan out. 

Do you recall ADG lighting things up last year? I don't. Even Wilson only had flashes. 

Carman was a reach who most had going in the 3rd (or 4th). He is being asked to play a new position. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. 

All these guys are unproven. That is a fact. Our OL hit rate has been pretty low lately (Price, Ogbeuhi, Fisher, Jordan, etc) and those guys were all rated higher than Carman save for Jordan.

Look, I find all you kool-aid drinkers hillarious. I mean, sure, I guess it is possible most of these hit and turn into studs, but that is somethibg that has not happened yet. Just go back and look at our draft classes. 

The last Bengals draft picks to make the Pro-Bowl (for us) were AJ and Andy in 2011. And Andy was an injury replacement. 2010 was excellent (Gresham, Dunlap, Geno). But 2-3 starters + 1-2 depth guys is a good as we ever do.

Chase is a legit stud. Carman will start because we have no RGs worth spit. We'll see how he does. McPherson will start. The others have some potential but are depth pieces for now. I like the defensive guys more (Ossai, Sample, Shelvin). They upgrade our depth, I think. But our DL was the worst in the league last year (as was the O-line). 

[EasyPeasy]

(05-03-2021, 03:47 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Even then he was a good pass blocker overall in the SEC at LT going against top DE talent like Chase Young and co.

Clemson is not in the SEC. Clemson played one or two good teams in the CFP every year but they got there by cruising through patsies in the ACC. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-06-2021, 04:45 PM)EasyPeasy Wrote: Clemson is not in the SEC. Clemson played one or two good teams in the CFP every year but they got there by cruising through patsies in the ACC. 

Notre Dame is not a “patsie.”

[EasyPeasy]

(05-06-2021, 11:07 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Notre Dame is not a “patsie.”

I'm sorry. Clemson plays a bunch of patsies and every other year they play a perennially-overrated Notre Dame that was too chickenshit to join the Big Ten. 

Please accept my apologies. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-06-2021, 02:02 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Ossai, Sample, and Shelvin are mid round picks (3rd/4th) with potential. None are going to be starters. They all will make the team. Those are depth guys. Perhaps they develop into starters or remain solid depth guys, or perhaps they never pan out. 

Do you recall ADG lighting things up last year? I don't. Even Wilson only had flashes. 

Carman was a reach who most had going in the 3rd (or 4th). He is being asked to play a new position. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. 

All these guys are unproven. That is a fact. Our OL hit rate has been pretty low lately (Price, Ogbeuhi, Fisher, Jordan, etc) and those guys were all rated higher than Carman save for Jordan.

Look, I find all you kool-aid drinkers hillarious. I mean, sure, I guess it is possible most of these hit and turn into studs, but that is somethibg that has not happened yet. Just go back and look at our draft classes. 

The last Bengals draft picks to make the Pro-Bowl (for us) were AJ and Andy in 2011. And Andy was an injury replacement. 2010 was excellent (Gresham, Dunlap, Geno). But 2-3 starters + 1-2 depth guys is a good as we ever do.

Chase is a legit stud. Carman will start because we have no RGs worth spit. We'll see how he does. McPherson will start. The others have some potential but are depth pieces for now. I like the defensive guys more (Ossai, Sample, Shelvin). They upgrade our depth, I think. But our DL was the worst in the league last year (as was the O-line). 

I agree on the part of us not knowing how this will turn out. Who knows, all I know is that I knew ADG would take time to 
adapt to the NFL as a rookie. I was right. I knew Wilson would be a solid pick, I was right. I knew Og was a shitty pick, I was
right. I knew Bates would be a great pick and I was right. I don't like to toot my own horn but I am not always wrong and to 
act like Carman is some punk is idiotic to me. Same with Ossai who was a 2nd rounder in my opinion with crazy talent.

No kool-aid here. Just calling it like it is. You are calling both Carman and Ossai shit or at least better than spit.

You might need to drink some kool-aid...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-06-2021, 04:45 PM)EasyPeasy Wrote: Clemson is not in the SEC. Clemson played one or two good teams in the CFP every year but they got there by cruising through patsies in the ACC. 

Sorry, they just beat up on the SEC...

[Murdock2420]

(05-03-2021, 01:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: On Bobby Hart’s PFF grade being close to Reiff’s - - that is mostly from his run blocking. Reiff is far better in pass protection.

Not trying to come off as negative... but just being honest here.

Reiff's grade certainly is helped by the offense in Minnesota being run first. Teams couldn't just line up and tee off on rushing the QB, they had to respect the Vikings ground game.

The Bengals need to get it right with the sets and play-calling with their current roster. If they leave Burrow in empty sets in shotgun again on a majority of their snaps, teams are going to speed rush this line to death.

If they switch things up, and get Burrow under center or even in the pistol with a TE on the end of the line and Mixon next to him it will do more to keep defenses honest then anything else they've done this off-season. Throwing as much as they did last year is not sustainable, even if they had 5 clones of Munoz on the line.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2021, 02:35 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Not trying to come off as negative... but just being honest here.

Reiff's grade certainly is helped by the offense in Minnesota being run first. Teams couldn't just line up and tee off on rushing the QB, they had to respect the Vikings ground game.

The Bengals need to get it right with the sets and play-calling with their current roster. If they leave Burrow in empty sets in shotgun again on a majority of their snaps, teams are going to speed rush this line to death.

If they switch things up, and get Burrow under center or even in the pistol with a TE on the end of the line and Mixon next to him it will do more to keep defenses honest then anything else they've done this off-season. Throwing as much as they did last year is not sustainable, even if they had 5 clones of Munoz on the line.

Agree with that, but do use Mixon more in the passing game for heck sake. Reiff helps though, a lot. Very good top end 
disciplined OT with tons of reps and experience playing against the best. Also would like to see 2 RB's in the backfield as I 
have been harping on for years. Gives our WR's some rest and is very unpredictable with pass catching RB's like Mixon and 
Evans/Perine/Traveon.

Play Calling is a big issue with this team as is getting down early. Hopefully the Play Calling and coaching of Zac and Lou 
gets much better. I think they have the players finally to get it done, now it is up to them or we move on.

[Luvnit2]

(05-07-2021, 02:35 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Not trying to come off as negative... but just being honest here.

Reiff's grade certainly is helped by the offense in Minnesota being run first. Teams couldn't just line up and tee off on rushing the QB, they had to respect the Vikings ground game.

The Bengals need to get it right with the sets and play-calling with their current roster. If they leave Burrow in empty sets in shotgun again on a majority of their snaps, teams are going to speed rush this line to death.

If they switch things up, and get Burrow under center or even in the pistol with a TE on the end of the line and Mixon next to him it will do more to keep defenses honest then anything else they've done this off-season. Throwing as much as they did last year is not sustainable, even if they had 5 clones of Munoz on the line.

We can play the what if game all day long. What would TB's OL individual grades be without a HOF QB who reads defenses as well as anyone who ever played QB and has a quick release also? What happens if Burrow and Mixon do not get hurt? What happens if 18 million dollar a year AJ Green plays like an elite receiver? What happens if our best pass catching TE does not get hurt early in the year?

My point arguments always be made to take a player up or down a notch. I like the addition of Reiff at RT and think he is a huge upgrade over Hart and also did not break the bank.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2021, 02:50 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We can play the what if game all day long. What would TB's OL individual grades be without a HOF QB who reads defenses as well as anyone who ever played QB and has a quick release also? What happens if Burrow and Mixon do not get hurt? What happens if 18 million dollar a year AJ Green plays like an elite receiver? What happens if our best pass catching TE does not get hurt early in the year?

My point arguments always be made to take a player up or down a notch. I like the addition of Reiff at RT and think he is a huge upgrade over Hart and also did not break the bank.

Yeah, ifs.

[Murdock2420]

(05-07-2021, 02:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree with that, but do use Mixon more in the passing game for heck sake. Reiff helps though, a lot. Very good top end 
disciplined OT with tons of reps and experience playing against the best. Also would like to see 2 RB's in the backfield as I 
have been harping on for years. Gives our WR's some rest and is very unpredictable with pass catching RB's like Mixon and 
Evans/Perine/Traveon.

Play Calling is a big issue with this team as is getting down early. Hopefully the Play Calling and coaching of Zac and Lou 
gets much better. I think they have the players finally to get it done, now it is up to them or we move on.

I'd be far less concerned about the state of the OL if I knew that Zac was going to run an offense that wasn't based around leaving Burrow back their to chuck and duck. 

If they establish a nice balance and get a ground game going and then use play-action to keep teams honest, it doesn't look as bad. But if they run the same offense with all the empty sets it has potential to get ugly quick.

(05-07-2021, 02:50 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We can play the what if game all day long. What would TB's OL individual grades be without a HOF QB who reads defenses as well as anyone who ever played QB and has a quick release also? What happens if Burrow and Mixon do not get hurt? What happens if 18 million dollar a year AJ Green plays like an elite receiver? What happens if our best pass catching TE does not get hurt early in the year?

My point arguments always be made to take a player up or down a notch. I like the addition of Reiff at RT and think he is a huge upgrade over Hart and also did not break the bank.

Luvnit, I'm not down on Reiff. He is an upgrade from Hart but you do have to consider what offense he came from versus what offense he is going to be in now. It is no different then the CBs the Bengals signed because they fit the style of defense that Lou wants to run.

Yes, it is an "if" and Reiff might come in and hold it down and no worries. But, we haven't seen what he'll do when the defense has no fear of the run and is just going to go screaming full speed at Burrow. Like I said above, if Taylor learns to call plays better then the outlook improves but if they run last seasons' offense again it will be ugly.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2021, 03:02 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'd be far less concerned about the state of the OL if I knew that Zac was going to run an offense that wasn't based around leaving Burrow back their to chuck and duck. 

If they establish a nice balance and get a ground game going and then use play-action to keep teams honest, it doesn't look as bad. But if they run the same offense with all the empty sets it has potential to get ugly quick.

Yeah, run the empty sets on special occasions. LSU had Edwards-Helaire next to Burrow to make it unpredictable and Joe could
just hand to ball off if he saw a blitz coming and it worked a lot. Plus he had that extra protection and he could pass to the RB in a
pinch, just gives Joe even more options. I think they used the empty sets so much cause it is what Joe likes, he likes to open up the
field and throw into space. But he was a rookie and trying to learn the NFL Defenses which are way harder to read than college.

[Murdock2420]

(05-07-2021, 03:18 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, run the empty sets on special occasions. LSU had Edwards-Helaire next to Burrow to make it unpredictable and Joe could
just hand to ball off if he saw a blitz coming and it worked a lot. Plus he had that extra protection and he could pass to the RB in a
pinch, just gives Joe even more options. I think they used the empty sets so much cause it is what Joe likes, he likes to open up the
field and throw into space. But he was a rookie and trying to learn the NFL Defenses which are way harder to read than college.

Honestly, this is why I was so against the Chase pick and so on board with fix the line.

If Zac is determined to run it empty like that, you can't be "average" on the line.

Of course if you go empty all the time like that eventually your QB is going to get killed. Just can't be one dimensional and predictable.

[EasyPeasy]

(05-07-2021, 02:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sorry, they just beat up on the SEC...

Sorry, with Carman as a starter they beat up on a shitty South Carolina and a middling Texas A&M and got their asses handed to them by LSU. What's your point? 

[bengaloo]

Hakuna matata

I think that all Bengals fans should unite and either pray, meditate, send positive vibes, whatever works for each fan, that this team stays healthy for a change. Because if we do I think good things can happen. We had a good offseason and will get some guys from last offseason that we lost to injury. This Bo Jackson crap has got to go.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2021, 03:37 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Honestly, this is why I was so against the Chase pick and so on board with fix the line.

If Zac is determined to run it empty like that, you can't be "average" on the line.

Of course if you go empty all the time like that eventually your QB is going to get killed. Just can't be one dimensional and predictable.

Think they very easily could of fixed the O-line and got Chase, even better in my eyes.

(05-07-2021, 04:01 PM)EasyPeasy Wrote: Sorry, with Carman as a starter they beat up on a shitty South Carolina and a middling Texas A&M and got their asses handed to them by LSU. What's your point? 

How many games did Clemson lose while Carman was there? Like 2, maybe 3?

What's your point?

Just hate on Carman cause he went to Clemson?

Why don't you judge the man's game?

[EasyPeasy]

(05-07-2021, 05:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Think they very easily could of fixed the O-line and got Chase, even better in my eyes.


How many games did Clemson lose while Carman was there? Like 2, maybe 3?

What's your point?

Just hate on Carman cause he went to Clemson?

Why don't you judge the man's game?

I haven't said anything negative about Carman. I'm just correcting some gross errors and misstatements about his Clemson teams' supposed SEC Championships.