(05-13-2021, 10:29 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: You're drawing a correlation and showing me nothing whatsoever to connect the contents of the OP to the results on the field. To simply say:
"staff small, win-loss record bad, derrrrrrrr?!?!!"
is not a good point. It's shit.
I even agree that there is a connection between the small staff and the franchise's struggles on the field, but it isn't an easy one to qualify and this thread does a shit job of examining it.
What correlation are you looking for exactly? It's impossible to quanitify anything other than the obvious in this case...
This team is on island in terms of their front office. They're a unicorn. NO ONE has a front office this size or structures it out in the way that we do. We're also one of the absolute worst teams, not only in the NFL, but in all of professional sports over the last three decades.
That's your correlation. The league's smallest front office has produced the league's worst team over the last 30 years. What more do you need?
Do you really expect me to go into the correltation between the 17th and 8th biggest front offices to support this logic? Is that what you're asking?
No offense but this appears similarly to something like me making a point like "You should brush your teeth" and the askiing me trying to break down all of the people who brush in the AM and the PM vs. people who only brush after meals while including the people who use mouthwash in addition to brushing their teeth.
Let's start simple... We need a bigger front office (we need to brush our teeth). Once we can establish that very simple point then we can examine the more complex results further. None of this post was meant to illustrate that the biggest front office is a means to success. It was that the league's smalllest front office is a going to result in failure.
(05-12-2021, 10:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: His title on the Steelers page is Player Personnel Coordinator, and he is listed under the "operations staff" along with all of the other traditional front office roles. You can check here: https://www.steelers.com/team/front-office-roster/
Now if you want to hyperfocus on one person with the last name Rooney being included in their front office staff that is provided on the team page and remove him that's ok. Or if you want to go ahead and add someone like Troy Blackburn that's ok too. But does this exercise in semantics really accomplish anything?
No offense, but I find post like these only meant to distract from what's clearly visible in the OP. Our front offiice is extremely small.
Go ahead and look at each list. Focus on anything with "scout" in the name, or "analytics", or the numbers of Directiors of Personnel. Tell me if the disparity isn't virtually the same.
If you remove Rooney family members from the Steelers, their FO is still bigger than ours WITH all the nepotism.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(05-13-2021, 10:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What's absolutely frightening to me is that some of you only equate scouting and analytics to the draft. Like you have absolutely no concept of pro scouting or anything of the sort.
Regardless of whether or not we've been "the worst", "one of the worst, or even "below average" in the draft alone, there's no arguing with the results on the field. This is a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in over 30 years.
Fwiw, I laughed again when you put us among the "class of the league" in the early 2010's. "Class of the league" to our beaten down fan base means top 12. How sad is that? You would have thought we would have reeled off a couple of Superbowls and Conference Championships in there but nope, we're such a sad organization that we hold up Wild Card performances like the '91-97 Chicago Bulls.
I'm going to put this as simply as I can: All of the people you see listed in the OP have a hand in building their respective teams. And our team has been laughingstock for years. That's a real big ***** problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP. No one should be defending the Hader Hardware that is our front office.
What is absolutely frightening is that you are not grasping that scouting be it collegiate or pro prospects has changed. As stated previously in regard to collegiate scouting...scouts and coaching staffs have full game tape of player literally at their fingertips now. You are trying to equate the size of the front office, scouting department, and or just people with titles pertaining to personnel to the quality of a product and anyone who knows the basics of business realizes they do not necessarily walk hand in hand. In many cases the less obstacles to deal with the higher the quality of the product.
(05-13-2021, 10:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What correlation are you looking for exactly? It's impossible to quanitify anything other than the obvious in this case...
This team is on island in terms of their front office. They're a unicorn. NO ONE has a front office this size or structures it out in the way that we do. We're also one of the absolute worst teams, not only in the NFL, but in all of professional sports over the last three decades.
That's your correlation. The league's smallest front office has produced the league's worst team over the last 30 years. What more do you need?
Do you really expect me to go into the correltation between the 17th and 8th biggest front offices to support this logic? Is that what you're asking?
No offense but this appears similarly to something like me making a point like "You should brush your teeth" and the askiing me trying to break down all of the people who brush in the AM and the PM vs. people who only brush after meals while including the people who use mouthwash in addition to brushing their teeth.
Let's start simple... We need a bigger front office (we need to brush our teeth). Once we can establish that very simple point then we can examine the more complex results further. None of this post was meant to illustrate that the biggest front office is a means to success. It was that the league's smalllest front office is a going to result in failure.
Wes I have to say I'm with you on this. There's a correlation between a small scouting staff and a losing record.
Look at the Bengals record for the past 30 years. With the exception of the Marvin Lewis era where he had a good coaching staff who adequately evaluated talent, this organization is the laughing stock of the NFL.
Ask any NFL fan, there opinions of the Bengals organization and the first words that come to mind is cheap, bad GM, bad owner.
(05-14-2021, 02:45 PM)OSUfan Wrote: What is absolutely frightening is that you are not grasping that scouting be it collegiate or pro prospects has changed. As stated previously in regard to collegiate scouting...scouts and coaching staffs have full game tape of player literally at their fingertips now. You are trying to equate the size of the front office, scouting department, and or just people with titles pertaining to personnel to the quality of a product and anyone who knows the basics of business realizes they do not necessarily walk hand in hand. In many cases the less obstacles to deal with the higher the quality of the product.
If it's not front office, what are your reasons why we have 0 playoff wins and one of the league's worst records over the last 30 years? Bad luck?
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(05-14-2021, 02:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If it's not front office, what are your reasons why we have 0 playoff wins and one of the league's worst records over the last 30 years? Bad luck?
Shake come on man. This organization has been riddled with injuries. I mean the Carson injury cost us 2 Super Bowls, and I mean Zimmer leaving cause our defense to suck again. Zimmers the only reason this organization was winning and that's why he should be the next head coach..
(05-14-2021, 02:45 PM)OSUfan Wrote: What is absolutely frightening is that you are not grasping that scouting be it collegiate or pro prospects has changed. As stated previously in regard to collegiate scouting...scouts and coaching staffs have full game tape of player literally at their fingertips now. You are trying to equate the size of the front office, scouting department, and or just people with titles pertaining to personnel to the quality of a product and anyone who knows the basics of business realizes they do not necessarily walk hand in hand. In many cases the less obstacles to deal with the higher the quality of the product.
I'm not sure what the availibility of game tape and how much easier it is to obtain has to do with anything. Like at all. Can you elaborate a bit?
You still need to people to watch the tape. You still need people to break down each and every prospect (both college and pro) and come to a determination on who to select, or who to target.
Teams have continually expanded their scouting and analytics since the dawn of the internet. Front offices are larger than they have ever been. Why is that?
I honestly have no idea what it is you're trying to say.
PS I'm not trying to equate the size of a front office to league wide success. I'm trying to equate to the league's smallest front office with a dumpster fire. If you weren't the world's biggest homer you'd understand and agree with this.
Quote:Toney, a wide receiver from Florida, tweaked his right foot during the first day of rookie minicamp, which he attributed to his cleats being the wrong size.
(05-13-2021, 12:21 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I just linked you the source. Open it up and look. It's absolutely bs to accuse me of or imply that I'm being biased or have somehow constructed these lists in a way that isn't fair.
Fwiw, there's a number of Rooney's that aren't on the operations section of the staff. Did it ever occur to you that that partilcar Rooney actually has a legitimate role in that dept? Maybe he actually does things that earn that title, that someone like Troy Blackburn does not do here.
Like I said earlier, your reply is about what I expected. Just something to distract from the overall point from the post. Or you just want to be cute and snarky and bust balls.
None of it changes that you clearly see our front office is incredibly small. None of it changes you can clearly see the number of scouts. But of course you don't want to focus on any of that do you? You don't want to have an actual conversation about the thread. You just want to pop in and hyperfocus on one name so deligitimize the entire post. Thanks for that.
Just questioned a site that listed Dan Rooney Jr. as not a member of ownership. Like I said: "I stopped reading there". Nothing personal; I agreed with you...
It's not even close how behind this team is when it comes to personnel and scouting. I mean, I'm not looking for the Bengals to add 15 scouts, but jeez, you can't tell me they wouldn't benefit from having another 3 or 4 scouts to take the load off of the ones that are there already.
(05-14-2021, 03:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm not sure what the availibility of game tape and how much easier it is to obtain has to do with anything. Like at all. Can you elaborate a bit?
You still need to people to watch the tape. You still need people to break down each and every prospect (both college and pro) and come to a determination on who to select, or who to target.
Teams have continually expanded their scouting and analytics since the dawn of the internet. Front offices are larger than they have ever been. Why is that?
I honestly have no idea what it is you're trying to say.
PS I'm not trying to equate the size of a front office to league wide success. I'm trying to equate to the league's smallest front office with a dumpster fire. If you weren't the world's biggest homer you'd understand and agree with this.
You wrapped up your entire premise with the last sentence of your post. You are right and anyone that does not agree with you is wrong and a homer. Does this wrap it up nicely and neatly? Because objectivity should not enter into the discussion should it?
The point with scouting information at your fingertips is rather simple. Travel time is cut down dramatically. You are not required to have people available to travel to multiple locations to obtain information at the same time. Which from a business standpoint would equal less personnel. Tape is available at anytime anywhere. A scout can be on one coast while viewing tape from the other coast at the same time.
Tape is available almost immediately following an event so it can be watched and details noted. Determinations and evaluations do not have to be made in a binge watching event as you seem to be eluding to. Scouts and coaches can be watching tape leading to the next draft or on potential free agents 365 days a year. It is called efficient time management.
(05-15-2021, 10:52 AM)OSUfan Wrote: You wrapped up your entire premise with the last sentence of your post. You are right and anyone that does not agree with you is wrong and a homer. Does this wrap it up nicely and neatly? Because objectivity should not enter into the discussion should it?
The point with scouting information at your fingertips is rather simple. Travel time is cut down dramatically. You are not required to have people available to travel to multiple locations to obtain information at the same time. Which from a business standpoint would equal less personnel. Tape is available at anytime anywhere. A scout can be on one coast while viewing tape from the other coast at the same time.
Tape is available almost immediately following an event so it can be watched and details noted. Determinations and evaluations do not have to be made in a binge watching event as you seem to be eluding to. Scouts and coaches can be watching tape leading to the next draft or on potential free agents 365 days a year. It is called efficient time management.
So why do other teams have such large scouting departments then? Are they just wasting money for the sake of wasting money?
What do all of these people do? Do they do anything at all? Do these front offices have 10-20 people just sitting there with their thumb up their arse while collecting a weekly check? Are they essentially paying them to do busy work?
If you can't see the correlation between our front office and our on the field performance then I really don't know what else there is to say. The team with the smallest front office has produced the worst team in the NFL over these last 30 years? Is that just a coincidence?
Shake asked you this same question earlier and you completely avoided answering it. I'm going to assume you will again, but I'll try anyways... If it's not our front office that has caused the failure that has been the last 3 decades then what in your mind has?
I would love an answer. We know it can't be market size because of the Steelers, the Chiefs, the Packers, etc. And we know it can't be as simple as just saying the players because the front office chooses those players.
The only answer I can think of that you could possibly attempt to provide is bad luck. This team has bad luck for 30 years. Is that your argument?
(05-13-2021, 10:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What's absolutely frightening to me is that some of you only equate scouting and analytics to the draft. Like you have absolutely no concept of pro scouting or anything of the sort.
Regardless of whether or not we've been "the worst", "one of the worst, or even "below average" in the draft alone, there's no arguing with the results on the field. This is a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in over 30 years.
Fwiw, I laughed again when you put us among the "class of the league" in the early 2010's. "Class of the league" to our beaten down fan base means top 12. How sad is that? You would have thought we would have reeled off a couple of Superbowls and Conference Championships in there but nope, we're such a sad organization that we hold up Wild Card performances like the '91-97 Chicago Bulls.
I'm going to put this as simply as I can: All of the people you see listed in the OP have a hand in building their respective teams. And our team has been laughingstock for years. That's a real big ***** problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP. No one should be defending the Hader Hardware that is our front office.
There are always going to be haters, it's just engrained in some people to take an opposing position.
Truth is the lists are what they are. The Bengals lack scouting in comparison to the other teams in the AFC North. How much that has on the outcome of football games is unknown. It's probably somewhere in the middle, not as bad as the records would indicate but definitely has some impact. Incompetence comes in many forms, it's not all player personnel.
(05-15-2021, 10:52 AM)OSUfan Wrote: You wrapped up your entire premise with the last sentence of your post. You are right and anyone that does not agree with you is wrong and a homer. Does this wrap it up nicely and neatly? Because objectivity should not enter into the discussion should it?
The point with scouting information at your fingertips is rather simple. Travel time is cut down dramatically. You are not required to have people available to travel to multiple locations to obtain information at the same time. Which from a business standpoint would equal less personnel. Tape is available at anytime anywhere. A scout can be on one coast while viewing tape from the other coast at the same time.
Tape is available almost immediately following an event so it can be watched and details noted. Determinations and evaluations do not have to be made in a binge watching event as you seem to be eluding to. Scouts and coaches can be watching tape leading to the next draft or on potential free agents 365 days a year. It is called efficient time management.
Who will watch more tape on more players in the same amount of time? Four scouts? Or twenty scouts?
And gimme your grade on Manziel’s tape. Just his tape.
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