Don't cheat: Which Bengal had the highest catch% (receptions/targets)

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-04-2021, 11:18 AM)sandwedge Wrote: He was targeted 53 times and caught 40 balls. That is 75%. 

Really not sure how much more easily I can explain this.

His average catch, at the point of completion, was for 3.8 yards.  A good number of them came on plays where he was completely uncovered.  Having a 75% catch percentage when these of the types of catches you're being asked to make is not indicative of being a "really good pass catcher". 

If we were to follow this logic then every single TE in the NFL is a really good pass catcher.  Anyone can catch these types of balls at a similar rate.

[TecmoBengals]

Stats aside, doesn't the ole 'eye-test' tell us Sample isn't on the level of a Travis Kelce or even mid-tier NFL TEs?

I think if Uzomah is healthy or Moss and maybe an undrafted rookie emerge, then it's buh bye Sample.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-03-2021, 08:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I was looking up the RB numbers on targets to try and project how many will go Mixon's way if he would be healthy all season.  (I settled on 60 targets with 50 receptions...but I digress).  

Looking at all the receivers outside of the RBs, who would you have guessed had the highest catch %?

I voted Boyd then learned it was Sample. Didn't surprise me, he has good hands and Boyd was just targeted much more and had
to make amazing catches more often. Sample could be good for us but I think if he stays healthy Uzo will be the TE having a break
out year with Burrow and him being buds all Offseason, gaining chemistry and Chase being added who opens up the middle of the 
field. Nice poll. Watch Wes come in here and hate on Sample. 

Sure, Sample isn't very fast and is a bit of a plodder but he is a good blocker with good hands. 

Maybe he needs to lose a little weight and he could be more of a weapon and run quicker, crisper routes.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-04-2021, 11:32 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Really not sure how much more easily I can explain this.

His average catch, at the point of completion, was for 3.8 yards.  A good number of them came on plays where he was completely uncovered.  Having a 75% catch percentage when these of the types of catches you're being asked to make is not indicative of being a "really good pass catcher". 

If we were to follow this logic then every single TE in the NFL is a really good pass catcher.  Anyone can catch these types of balls at a similar rate.

Too late lol

[sandwedge]

(06-04-2021, 11:32 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Really not sure how much more easily I can explain this.

His average catch, at the point of completion, was for 3.8 yards.  A good number of them came on plays where he was completely uncovered.  Having a 75% catch percentage when these of the types of catches you're being asked to make is not indicative of being a "really good pass catcher". 

If we were to follow this logic then every single TE in the NFL is a really good pass catcher.  Anyone can catch these types of balls at a similar rate.

So he is supposed to pass block and then get 30 yds down field? Yeah, not sure that's logical...

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-04-2021, 01:12 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So he is supposed to pass block and then get 30 yds down field? Yeah, not sure that's logical...

Did I say that?  You're now completely changing the conversation.  Here's how it went...

1.) You said it's very hard to get someone who is both a very good blocker and very good pass catcher.

2.) I said he's not been a very good pass catcher and to look at all of his stats.

3.) You then replied with only his catch percentage, as if that somehow supports your argument.

4.) I replied that catch percentage isn't very noteworthy because of the routes he was being asked to run. (3.8 yards a completion)

So far you've provided absolutely zero evidence that Drew Sample is even remotely close to a good pass catcher.  Now it appears you're changing your agrument to he can't be judged on it because he's not asked to do it.  But that's entirely different than pointing out how hard it is to find someone who can do both.  He's shown no evidence of being able to do both at a "very good" level.

Fwiw, I already addressed this in another post (him having to stay in and block).  Why was CJ Uzomah used in a completely different way in the same exact offense, with the same exact personnel?  Could it be the coaching staff knows this dude can't get open in coverage?

[BoomerFan]

I guessed Uzo. Sample isn't too surprising (though he wouldn't have been my 2nd pick either). It is still telling that he wasn't targeted much, presumably because he wasn't open.

Still, at its heart, football is a lot like the old playground game of "keepaway". You don't have to throw the ball far. If you get it over the passrush it keeps you from taking a sack while getting positive yards. You only need 10 yards over 3 (or 4) downs to get a first down so a reliable short yardage TE can be very helpful. Think of him almost like a running back -- keeps the pass rush at bay while grinding towards your goal.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-04-2021, 01:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I voted Boyd then learned it was Sample. Didn't surprise me, he has good hands and Boyd was just targeted much more and had
to make amazing catches more often. Sample could be good for us but I think if he stays healthy Uzo will be the TE having a break
out year with Burrow and him being buds all Offseason, gaining chemistry and Chase being added who opens up the middle of the 
field. Nice poll. Watch Wes come in here and hate on Sample. 

Sure, Sample isn't very fast and is a bit of a plodder but he is a good blocker with good hands. 

Maybe he needs to lose a little weight and he could be more of a weapon and run quicker, crisper routes.

Based on the VERY little time the Bengals had Sample and Uzo healthy, I wonder if they weren't planning on running more 12 personnel and aren't the dyed-in-the-wool 11 personnel advocates that we believe them to be.  Uzo is clearly the more receiving-focused of the two, but even if you had them both out there, it is entirely possible that the best matchup would be Sample.  It will be interesting to see.  

I think the addition of Moss is being somewhat overlooked.  I didn't realize that he had a second foot injury found at the "combine" and that he had to have surgery on that foot as well, which cost him most of his rookie season.  I think, when healthy, that Moss can be a nice rotational player.  He is already a very solid blocker and that is one of the biggest hangups of putting out a rookie is if they can hold their own blocking.  He may not be a burner, but has really reliable hands and is a stout blocker.  He could be another Sample and based on the signing as an UDFA, that would be pretty nice.  

[sandwedge]

(06-04-2021, 01:30 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did I say that?  You're now completely changing the conversation.  Here's how it went...

1.) You said it's very hard to get someone who is both a very good blocker and very good pass catcher.

2.) I said he's not been a very good pass catcher and to look at all of his stats.

3.) You then replied with only his catch percentage, as if that somehow supports your argument.

4.) I replied that catch percentage isn't very noteworthy because of the routes he was being asked to run. (3.8 yards a completion)

So far you've provided absolutely zero evidence that Drew Sample is even remotely close to a good pass catcher.  Now it appears you're changing your agrument to he can't be judged on it because he's not asked to do it.  But that's entirely different than pointing out how hard it is to find someone who can do both.  He's shown no evidence of being able to do both at a "very good" level.

Fwiw, I already addressed this in another post (him having to stay in and block).  Why was CJ Uzomah used in a completely different way in the same exact offense, with the same exact personnel?  Could it be the coaching staff knows this dude can't get open in coverage?

I'm not changing anything. If anything, you haven't proven he is a bad receiver. He never dropped a pass his last season in college. So just because he isn't ask to get downfield to often, but more as an outlet, doesn't mean he can't catch the ball.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-04-2021, 12:34 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Stats aside, doesn't the ole 'eye-test' tell us Sample isn't on the level of a Travis Kelce or even mid-tier NFL TEs?

I think if Uzomah is healthy or Moss and maybe an undrafted rookie emerge, then it's buh bye Sample.

(not directed at you, but) If you think Sample is going anywhere anytime soon, you've got to stop hating. Well, I wanted to say you have a screw loose, but that's not nice

I don't see him going anywhere until AFTER a second contract; good team guy, great blocker, (as demonstrated with this thread) not terrible hands, a competent receiver, hard to take down, he is the new Reggie Kelly, albeit not as good a blocker.

Knowing the staff and FO, I'd pencil him in for another 5 years here, after this one.

[fredtoast]

(06-04-2021, 10:20 AM)ochocincos Wrote: He's a good blocker. But what good teams nowadays don't deploy a TE who at least has decent pass catching ability?

13-3 Buffalo Bills

(06-04-2021, 10:20 AM)ochocincos Wrote: And before anyone says Sample was just used as a blocker so much, he had the 15th-most receiving snaps out of all TEs (433).

Those are just pass plays.  Many of which he was used mainly as a blocker.

There are no numbers or stats that show that Sample is really good, but there are also none that show he is really bad.  His stats seem to be based on how he was used in the system.  Just like a WR who does nothing but run deep routes will have a lower catch percentage or a RB who is only used in short yardage situations will have a lower average per carry Samples numbers reflect that he was used mostly as a blocker and just a check down receiver.  Some will claim it was because that is all he could do, but others can argue that our O-line was so weak it was necessary to use him more as a blocker.

But one thing we can all agree on.  When he was thrown the ball he caught it at a very high rate, and when he was called on to be a blocker he was very good at it.  I believe all the hate directed at him is based on him being a 2nd round pick.  If he had been taken later in the draft more people would just appreciate him for what he di to help the offense last year.

I have no problem with an upgrade at TE, but I don't think Moss or any other TE we have signed will bump Sample off the roster.  Uzomah will be our #1 and sample #2.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-05-2021, 11:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 13-3 Buffalo Bills




Those are just pass plays.  Many of which he was used mainly as a blocker.

Nope. Wrong.

Sample's snap distribution breakdown in 2020, according to PFF:
Receiving - 433
Pass Block - 94
Run Block - 341

As for Dawson Knox, He only got a 61.4 PFF grade, so he's not good either.
And when you have four receivers who get 3500+ yards (Diggs - 1535, Beasley - 967, Davis - 599, Brown - 458), you can better excuse not having as prolific of a pass catching TE.
But I'm sure it would help if they had an even more prolific pass catching TE to add yet another legit receiving weapon on the field.

EDIT - I think Uzomah can be good enough to be a 4th option in the passing game. I don't think Sample would be.

[fredtoast]

(06-05-2021, 12:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Nope. Wrong.

Sample's snap distribution breakdown in 2020, according to PFF:
Receiving - 433
Pass Block - 94
Run Block - 341

So how do they count a play where he chip blocks and then goes out for a pass?

It seems a lot of people here are claiming that his short yardage target number is based on the fact that he often stays in to block before catching a short dump-off as a check down receiver.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-05-2021, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So how do they count a play where he chip blocks and then goes out for a pass?

It seems a lot of people here are claiming that his short yardage target number is based on the fact that he often stays in to block before catching a short dump-off as a check down receiver.

I don't know. Go ask them.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-05-2021, 11:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I believe all the hate directed at him is based on him being a 2nd round pick.  If he had been taken later in the draft more people would just appreciate him for what he di to help the offense last year.

I have no problem with an upgrade at TE, but I don't think Moss or any other TE we have signed will bump Sample off the roster.  Uzomah will be our #1 and sample #2.

It's 100% that he was taken in the 2nd round.
If he had been a Day 3 pick, people (including myself) would be more accepting.
There are very few teams who would be willing to spend anything less than a Day 3 pick on a blocking TE who isn't above average as a pass catcher.
None of the TEs they have will bump Sample off the roster. He's fine as a TE2, but he's not what I (and most fans) want in a TE1.
I realize that Sample was not the TE1 to start the season last year, so hopefully Uzomah takes that role back over.

[fredtoast]

(06-05-2021, 12:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't know. Go ask them.

I don't have to.  I was not the one who cited their stats to support my position.

He played a ton of snaps after Uzo went down, and we threw the ball a lot.  So I agree he played a lot of "passing snaps".  But He was still used as a blocker on many of those snaps.

[Bengalitis]

What really sucks is Zac got Sample at number two and did not use him adequately for the high pick he was. More reason why Zac has been under .500 as a head coach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-05-2021, 08:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Based on the VERY little time the Bengals had Sample and Uzo healthy, I wonder if they weren't planning on running more 12 personnel and aren't the dyed-in-the-wool 11 personnel advocates that we believe them to be.  Uzo is clearly the more receiving-focused of the two, but even if you had them both out there, it is entirely possible that the best matchup would be Sample.  It will be interesting to see.  

I think the addition of Moss is being somewhat overlooked.  I didn't realize that he had a second foot injury found at the "combine" and that he had to have surgery on that foot as well, which cost him most of his rookie season.  I think, when healthy, that Moss can be a nice rotational player.  He is already a very solid blocker and that is one of the biggest hangups of putting out a rookie is if they can hold their own blocking.  He may not be a burner, but has really reliable hands and is a stout blocker.  He could be another Sample and based on the signing as an UDFA, that would be pretty nice.  

We are definitely better at TE with the addition of Moss and Sample having an okay season under his belt. These guys are solid,
they just aren't those big play TE's that help the best teams make the Playoffs every year which is what I want. Biggest reason I 
was hoping for Pitts over Sewell and Chase, but love Chase almost just as much and we needed another Receiver and there was 
no one in this Draft better than Chase IMO.

CJ O'Grady is an underrated UDFA signing for us in my opinion and so is Pro Wells. One of these guys might see playing time if 
someone goes down. Moss being healthy and back with his LSU compadres should help, he has all the opportunity in the world 
to earn a spot and run with it. But it won't be easy for him which is nice. Uzo and Sample are very solid and like you said, Moss's
game resembles Sample's game a lot.

[sandwedge]

(06-04-2021, 12:34 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Stats aside, doesn't the ole 'eye-test' tell us Sample isn't on the level of a Travis Kelce or even mid-tier NFL TEs?

I think if Uzomah is healthy or Moss and maybe an undrafted rookie emerge, then it's buh bye Sample.

Moss is not going to cause Sample to be cut. You're nuts. Lol

[TecmoBengals]

(06-05-2021, 07:16 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Moss is not going to cause Sample to be cut. You're nuts. Lol

I didn't say Moss is going to cause Sample to be cut. I said it would take Uzomah + Moss + undrafted rookie emerges to get Sample cut. Even then, that's just me speculating as a fan on forum.

I guess I should include an obligatory, asshole Lol in my post since your reading comprehension sucked balls.