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(06-18-2021, 06:56 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I should have rephrased my question. How many olinemen
Did Turner develop as a oline coach in all his years?
Richie Incognito was already a solid linenan before Turner
Got to him. His issue has always been between his ears
Pouncey was going to be good no matter who his oline
Coach was.he comes from.Good football stock.
I.just know when.Turner was the Bengals oline coach as
A unit the Bengals oline regressed.
I see none of the current oline is missing him
As a former coach that’s a difficult question to answer because growth of players is always on them. When Turner was hired I looked at things his players said about him over his years at A&M. Discipline, attention to details, workman-like. Even when he was let go last year, people on the A&M board said they should get him back.
So here is one anyway. An 18 year old with no major scholarship offers goes to BC and becomes a first round draft pick and 10 year starter in the NFL. Does that count?
An of course I can always look at other coaches (like Pollack) Did he develop Zack Martin, Tyron Smith, etc.? Weren’t they “always going to be good.” It works both ways, right?
As for regression, chemistry, continuity and consistency plays a huge role in that. Because the hand he was dealt, he had zero chance to do any of that.
I’m a fan of Pollack and greatly prefer the wide zone. I’m not a big fan of Turner. But his resume o-line wise was entirely appropriate to be hired. Things didn’t work out but not much went in his favor.
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(06-18-2021, 02:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I would argue that the biggest problematic areas were OC and DC, not OL Coach and DL Coach. Both of those guys are still here doing the same job. That's like putting down new carpet down on rotting floor beams.
Also, isn't this Year 3 Offseason for Taylor? Or are we doing that thing where we pretend a guy is a "basically" a rookie for 3-4 years? Lol
It's year 3
ZT kept B. Hart, A. Redmond among others. Drafted R. Finley and moved up to do it. The list goes on.
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(06-18-2021, 09:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: ZT kept B. Hart, A. Redmond among others. Drafted R. Finley and moved up to do it. The list goes on.
It’s really strange to keep seeing comments like this so much on this board. It makes no sense. Zac was hired 7 weeks prior to the draft. He would need to concentrate on getting his staff together, learning the FO, staff and facilities, watching film of the team to learn what he has, developing the playbook along with the logistics of moving his family across the country.
Besides, most coaches have very little say about who to draft. That’s the GM and scouting staff’s job. Philosophy maybe and that did change in the 19 & 20 drafts. Marv didn’t even want Ross. What makes anyone think Zac suddenly has all this power. Weird.
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(06-18-2021, 09:43 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: It’s really strange to keep seeing comments like this so much on this board. It makes no sense. Zac was hired 7 weeks prior to the draft. He would need to concentrate on getting his staff together, learning the FO, staff and facilities, watching film of the team to learn what he has, developing the playbook along with the logistics of moving his family across the country.
Besides, most coaches have very little say about who to draft. That’s the GM and scouting staff’s job. Philosophy maybe and that did change in the 19 & 20 drafts. Marv didn’t even want Ross. What makes anyone think Zac suddenly has all this power. Weird.
Um, no. Zac was officially hired on Feb 4th. The draft was on Apr 25th. That's over 11 weeks.
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(06-19-2021, 06:36 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Um, no. Zac was officially hired on Feb 4th. The draft was on Apr 25th. That's over 11 weeks.
The ZT apologist's just kill me. They act like he was here 3 days before the season started and had no control over anything. And then the covid excuse kills me even more. Again like he was the only coach facing that issue.
Wonder what excuses will be made up for this season ?
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(06-19-2021, 08:34 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The ZT apologist's just kill me. They act like he was here 3 days before the season started and had no control over anything. And then the covid excuse kills me even more. Again like he was the only coach facing that issue.
Wonder what excuses will be made up for this season ?
 I'm sorry so you also don't think Taylor should have a list of coaches he'd like to bring with him to Cincy already drawn up? I'm going to bet interviews took a couple weeks due to the playoffs. So add an additions couple of weeks on the 11 weeks and he had 3 months before the draft to start working on a staff, looking at the draft (although someone posted on here the other day the coaches don't make the draft choices) and work on an offensive scheme.
To me this dude has one excuse and it's he's a shitty coach. At the highest level of football he's been a QB coach. Not a passing game coordinator or OC who draws up the game plans but a guy who prepared the QB. For anyone who says he was an OC at UC, he was a failure as a OC at UC.
Right now we could call him Dave Shula and except for being a different person the records are similar, and neither held the tile of OC prior to being a head coach.
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(06-18-2021, 02:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I would argue that the biggest problematic areas were OC and DC, not OL Coach and DL Coach. Both of those guys are still here doing the same job. That's like putting down new carpet down on rotting floor beams.
Also, isn't this Year 3 Offseason for Taylor? Or are we doing that thing where we pretend a guy is a "basically" a rookie for 3-4 years? Lol
I would argue the Offensive and Defensive Lines have stunted the Offense and Defense. The trenches were the worst two areas on the team limiting the playbook on offense and hurting the defensive scheme.
A rebuild refers to a teams roster. The Bengals started moving on from Marvin's mainstay players and bringing in outside Free Agents to replace them in Zac Taylor's second year. That is the first year of the rebuild.
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(06-18-2021, 02:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: One could argue Year 1 was not intended to be a rebuild, but rather the expectation that Taylor would turn Marvin's 6-10 team into a winner.
It was then determined that a rebuild needed to happen because of the lack of fit that those existing players had in Taylor's and Anarumo's schemes.
And while I am certainly more lenient than most on the coaches (although I am VERY glad Turner is gone), I don't think anyone was prepared for AJ to miss the entire season and come back as one of the worst statistical (Next Gen) WRs in the league. That was supposed to be our #1 weapon, and he was not available one year and a shell of his former self the next. Some of us (raises hand) still had hope that Ross would pan out, especially after his first game under Taylor.
You are dead on about the rebuild now. And while they missed out on what could have been some serious equity had they traded Dunlap, Atkins, and AJ early on, it allowed them to get Burrow and they are all-in on getting a new crop of players here now. I think outside the punter/holder, the eldest Bengals are Hubbard and Bates on the starting defense. That is amazing.
I've said numerous times on here that this season, however, should be called "no excuses". It is time for results.
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Don't get me wrong I'd love it if ZT had 10 wins or more this year. I'd drive to Cincinnati and give him a ticker tape parade.
I just have my doubts about his ability to coach this team up. And I'm tired of hearing the excuses.
i
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(06-19-2021, 10:52 AM)Synric Wrote: I would argue the Offensive and Defensive Lines have stunted the Offense and Defense. The trenches were the worst two areas on the team limiting the playbook on offense and hurting the defensive scheme.
A rebuild refers to a teams roster. The Bengals started moving on from Marvin's mainstay players and bringing in outside Free Agents to replace them in Zac Taylor's second year. That is the first year of the rebuild.
I would argue that...
An OC who has a rookie QB behind a crap OL and yet still calls an offense that is going to have said rookie QB throw the 5th most pass attempts in NFL history and a DC who alienates his best DL and forces a revolt on his defense (while still getting run all over) limited the offense and defense.
They're both in way over their heads as OC/DC, man. Yes the DL Coach and OL Coach needed to go, but it's just re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic while Taylor/Anarumo are still in charge of the offense and defense.
Taylor seems like a decent guy, and people seem to like him, but that doesn't mean he's a good OC.
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(06-19-2021, 12:28 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I would argue that...
An OC who has a rookie QB behind a crap OL and yet still calls an offense that is going to have said rookie QB throw the 5th most pass attempts in NFL history and a DC who alienates his best DL and forces a revolt on his defense (while still getting run all over) limited the offense and defense.
They're both in way over their heads as OC/DC, man. Yes the DL Coach and OL Coach needed to go, but it's just re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic while Taylor/Anarumo are still in charge of the offense and defense.
Taylor seems like a decent guy, and people seem to like him, but that doesn't mean he's a good OC.
Why did the offense have so many passing attempts? Because the Offensive line failed to open holes in the run game forcing the offense to pass to stay on time. The lack of a run offense also limited the playbook.
Why did the team have an issue with Carlos Dunlap? Because he started to freelance outside of the defensive scheme placing his individual stats over the defense as a whole.
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(06-19-2021, 12:28 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I would argue that...
An OC who has a rookie QB behind a crap OL and yet still calls an offense that is going to have said rookie QB throw the 5th most pass attempts in NFL history and a DC who alienates his best DL and forces a revolt on his defense (while still getting run all over) limited the offense and defense.
They're both in way over their heads as OC/DC, man. Yes the DL Coach and OL Coach needed to go, but it's just re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic while Taylor/Anarumo are still in charge of the offense and defense.
Taylor seems like a decent guy, and people seem to like him, but that doesn't mean he's a good OC.
& this is what the '21 - '22 season comes down to. Can Zac Taylor be a good coach? Player progression matters, but we'll need to see vast improvements from Taylor if this team is to get to a winning record or the playoffs.
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(06-19-2021, 01:58 PM)Synric Wrote: Why did the offense have so many passing attempts? Because the Offensive line failed to open holes in the run game forcing the offense to pass to stay on time. The lack of a run offense also limited the playbook.
Why did the team have an issue with Carlos Dunlap? Because he started to freelance outside of the defensive scheme placing his individual stats over the defense as a whole.
Because all of Zac Taylors offenses throw an absolute shitton.
Even in 2019, through the first 8 games before he got benched for Finley, Dalton was on pace to throw 676 times which would have been the 4th most in NFL history. They threw a little less when he came back, but even if you look at the full 13 games he started, he was still on pace to tie for the 17th most pass attempts in NFL history.
Even in college in 2016, Zac Taylor's (123rd/128th ranked) offense had the 20th most passing attempts in the country despite having Hayden Moore, Gunner Kiel, and Ross Trail at QB. (  )
It has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with that's simply how Zac Taylor is as a playcaller.
- - - - - -
Wasn't just Dunlap. There was a lot of discontent being aired last season by the D, and the FAs who left didn't have anything nice to say either.
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(06-19-2021, 08:34 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The ZT apologist's just kill me. They act like he was here 3 days before the season started and had no control over anything. And then the covid excuse kills me even more. Again like he was the only coach facing that issue.
Wonder what excuses will be made up for this season ?
(06-19-2021, 12:10 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Don't get me wrong I'd love it if ZT had 10 wins or more this year. I'd drive to Cincinnati and give him a ticker tape parade.
I just have my doubts about his ability to coach this team up. And I'm tired of hearing the excuses.
i
I agree, there are no excuses this year at all. Make or break year for Zac Taylor. Get in the Playoffs and win a game or GTFO.
Still hoping it comes around though. I just have to hope, just the way it is with me lol
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How many wins will it take to keep ZT as the head coach this year?
To each his own... unless you belong to a political party...
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(06-20-2021, 09:17 AM)EatonFan Wrote: How many wins will it take to keep ZT as the head coach this year?
9
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(06-20-2021, 09:17 AM)EatonFan Wrote: How many wins will it take to keep ZT as the head coach this year?
For us fans, a lot. For Mike Brown… 6.
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(06-20-2021, 12:59 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: For us fans, a lot. For Mike Brown… 6.
Yup. A few meaningless wins at the end of a season is a job savior.
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(06-20-2021, 12:59 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: For us fans, a lot. For Mike Brown… 6.
Marvin Lewis never survived 3 straight losing seasons. Even with a career winning record.
Dick LeBeaus did not survive three straight losing seasons.
Bruce Coslet did not survive three straight losing seasons.
No way on Hell Taylor is back as HC if we have a losing season.
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(06-22-2021, 09:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin Lewis never survived 3 straight losing seasons. Even with a career winning record.
Dick LeBeaus did not survive three straight losing seasons.
Bruce Coslet did not survive three straight losing seasons.
No way on Hell Taylor is back as HC if we have a losing season.
Agree. 3 years is a good valuation.
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