(06-22-2021, 03:46 PM)EatonFan Wrote: I think the number is 9 or 10 wins to keep him, because anything short of that and even Mikey can see he wasn't the guy to lead the team.
I also think that the amount of money the front office has spent in free agency the last two off seasons really puts a lot more pressure on Taylor.
Marvin was always coaching with one hand tied behind his back due to the fact that he never got any help in free agency. Taylor does not have that excuse.
(06-22-2021, 09:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin Lewis never survived 3 straight losing seasons. Even with a career winning record.
Dick LeBeaus did not survive three straight losing seasons.
Bruce Coslet did not survive three straight losing seasons.
No way on Hell Taylor is back as HC if we have a losing season.
Fred,
If Marvin Lewis' first 2 seasons were a disaster like Zac's first 2 seasons I really doubt he would've made it even 2 seasons.
Marvin's hands were tied by the organization. It always seemed like they were 1 or 2 players away that they could've gotten in free agency and they never signed anyone.
If Zac Taylor doesn't win 10 games and make the playoffs this year, with all the money that's been spent in free agency, then he needs to be walked out the doors of PBS, and drag Lou's butt with him.
Although I like what Zac and Duke have done from a roster standpoint, specifically the types of players they have added through free agency and the draft, and moving on from the old guard...at some point it has to show up on the field and produce winning results.
This team now has a potential (talent wise) top 10 QB, RB and WR corps, an elite S, a much improved D-line and an O-line, that while still not great, should be a lot better than last year. If they can stay relatively healthy (which has been an issue) there are no excuses this season.
It's on Zac to get wins out of this roster, and not just more than last year...but enough to produce a winning season. If you look at coaches who have started with 5 or less wins in each of their first 2 years since 2000, zero ever produced a winning year and only 18% survived a 3rd season and none made it past a 4th. Those are the odds Zac and the Bengals facing right now.
Can Zac do what no other coach with his record has been able to over the last 20 years? I think he can and I think he will. I think he breaks that trend and I really feel like the Bengals will win 10 games this season. When you look at the culture he is creating, the types of personalities he's added and the overall chemistry I see this team having as the season plays out...I think it's going to be a fun year.
I've had plenty of issues with Zac over the course of his first 2 seasons...like hiring Turner, not firing Lou, and his questionable play calling at times and I've often thought that his ego doesn't exactly match his accomplishments...but with all that being said, I also think there are things to be positive and hopeful about like the guys his bring in, the fact that players are seemingly still on board with his plan, the approach in free agency, not being afraid to part ways with guys like Geno, Dunlap, Bernard, etc. I think he's making the right moves in most instances. Now it's time for those moves to pay off on the field...and I honestly think we'll see that this season.
(06-22-2021, 09:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin Lewis never survived 3 straight losing seasons. Even with a career winning record.
Dick LeBeaus did not survive three straight losing seasons.
Bruce Coslet did not survive three straight losing seasons.
No way on Hell Taylor is back as HC if we have a losing season.
Marvin had been here for 16 years, Bruce turned in his playbook and walked away, and LeBeau's contract expired so it made it easy to move on from him, even though Mike wasn't happy about it.
I do agree though, if Zac has another losing season, it's time to make a change. Maybe if he goes 8-9 and the team is obviously competing at a higher level and looking close to taking the next step, you could make an argument for bringing him back...but anything less than that would be enough to put an end to the Zac era.
(06-23-2021, 02:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Marvin had been here for 16 years, Bruce turned in his playbook and walked away, and LeBeau's contract expired so it made it easy to move on from him, even though Mike wasn't happy about it.
I do agree though, if Zac has another losing season, it's time to make a change. Maybe if he goes 8-9 and the team is obviously competing at a higher level and looking close to taking the next step, you could make an argument for bringing him back...but anything less than that would be enough to put an end to the Zac era.
Marvin would've never made it to year 3 if he had 2 years like Zac had to begin with.
(06-23-2021, 03:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Dave Shula was given a 2 year extension after going 8-24, and winning less games in his second year than his first.
And yet Zac Taylor has a worse record in 2 seasons that Dave Shula did. So I guess that shows how much confidence we should have in this front office lol
(06-23-2021, 03:21 PM)TJ528 Wrote: And yet Zac Taylor has a worse record in 2 seasons that Dave Shula did. So I guess that shows how much confidence we should have in this front office lol
One of the things Zac has going for him that Shula never really did, is that players seem to like and respect him, and are buying into what he's selling...even though the results haven't been there on the field yet.
We'll see how things play out, but I think that's important and gives Zac a much better shot than Shula ever had.
(06-23-2021, 03:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: One of the things Zac has going for him that Shula never really did, is that players seem to like and respect him, and are buying into what he's selling...even though the results haven't been there on the field yet.
We'll see how things play out, but I think that's important and gives Zac a much better shot than Shula ever had.
You are right there. Trust me. I'd love to see Zac succeed here.
However, there's too many things they have in common it's down right frightening.
I mean how do we know Shula didn't have the players respect until year 3 or 4 when his teams kept on losing?
However, one thing Zac has that Shula didnt have was the Bengals were effective in free agency and drafted well.
Back in 1994, we had Mike Brown at the helm. No one can be successful with him at the helm with the exception of Marvin Lewis.
As Nate posted, this is the make or break year for Taylor. If he doesn't have 10+ wins and a post season appearance then he had his shot.
Time to look in a new direction and someone with at least coordinator experience.
(06-23-2021, 02:37 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's on Zac to get wins out of this roster, and not just more than last year...but enough to produce a winning season. If you look at coaches who have started with 5 or less wins in each of their first 2 years since 2000, zero ever produced a winning year and only 18% survived a 3rd season and none made it past a 4th. Those are the odds Zac and the Bengals facing right now.
(06-22-2021, 03:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I also think that the amount of money the front office has spent in free agency the last two off seasons really puts a lot more pressure on Taylor.
I would hope this is true but I have my doubts.
My biggest concern is that this was essentially a hiring process that Katie spearheaded. Also, the fact his contract is reported to be for 5 years and HC deals are fully guaranteed is another. I could see both her and the rest of the front office very reluctant to pull the trigger on firing him. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this team win 7 or 8 games and ZT keep his job.
Also, as much as their should be pressure on Taylor there should be as much if not more on Duke Tobin. They both should be gone if this team doesn't finish with a winning record.
(06-23-2021, 06:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I would hope this is true but I have my doubts.
My biggest concern is that this was essentially a hiring process that Katie spearheaded. Also, the fact his contract is reported to be for 5 years and HC deals are fully guaranteed is another. I could see both her and the rest of the front office very reluctant to pull the trigger on firing him. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this team win 7 or 8 games and ZT keep his job.
Also, as much as their should be pressure on Taylor there should be as much if not more on Duke Tobin. They both should be gone if this team doesn't finish with a winning record.
Couldn't agree more. Who's responsible for the current roster...Zac and Duke. If this team has 7 or 8 wins and they keep Taylor then PBS will be lucky to draw 25,000 in attendance next season.
Then again this could be this generation of the Bengals decade of hell like 92-02 was for me. The lost decade of football in Cincy thanks to Mike Brown.
(06-23-2021, 06:28 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Then again this could be this generation of the Bengals decade of hell like 92-02 was for me. The lost decade of football in Cincy thanks to Mike Brown.
It's actually depressing just how close these last 5 years have been to that terrible run that featured Shula, Coslet and Lebeau. Check out these winning percentages:
Not to far off as far as ineptitude. Even more of a bummer is when you look at all of their individual winning percentages...
Coslet ----------------------- .428
Lewis ('16-18) ------------- .404
Shula ------------------------ .268
Lebeau ---------------------- .267
Taylor ----------------------- .203
We're right back in it. This has been absolutely terrible 5 years. And to make matters even worse, this league is making more money than ever, parity has never been better, and this franchise was gifted a brand new stadium with virtually all expenses covered in between these eras. Yet here we sit.
Personally it appears they have most of the horses they needed to turn things around so the real question will be if the coaching staff has the capability of pulling it off. I think they have the players right now to at least rise up from the basement and maybe even contend if the staff has learned anything from past mistakes. If not then they'll have another shot at another bunch of great draft picks. I have a hunch that if they end up dead in the water again mid season it'll be the end of Zac as a HC so it's put up or shut up time for this staff.
In the immortal words of my old man, "Wait'll you get to be my age!"
Chicago sounds rough to the maker of verse, but the one comfort we have is Cincinnati sounds worse. ~Oliver Wendal Holmes Sr.
End of the day, we've had a **** ****ing line for ****ing years. That's an organizational problem. It was a **** ****ing line under Marvin and it's a **** ****ing line under ZT.
Bring in whatever coach you want, they're going to suck elk butt if we keep thinking that an OL is least in priority.
2021 is probably going to suck. Why? Cause our line still sucks. Is there hope? Sure. It's called 2022. Why? Because maybe we'll draft a couple linemen or at least sign some decent FAs.
(06-23-2021, 06:28 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Couldn't agree more. Who's responsible for the current roster...Zac and Duke. If this team has 7 or 8 wins and they keep Taylor then PBS will be lucky to draw 25,000 in attendance next season.
Then again this could be this generation of the Bengals decade of hell like 92-02 was for me. The lost decade of football in Cincy thanks to Mike Brown.
I will say, the rosters of ZT and Duke were better than the rosters from the last five years of ML and Duke. Combined.
I've said before, the first couple years of ZT were basically playing with Marvin & Duke's garbage. I'm not sold on him as a coach, but I don't think most coaches would have had success with what was put together.
(06-24-2021, 12:50 AM)Benton Wrote: I will say, the rosters of ZT and Duke were better than the rosters from the last five years of ML and Duke. Combined.
Last five years Marvin was 4 games over .500 and made the playoffs twice.
Taylor has more talent but is somehow 19 games UNDER .500.
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
