Very Important Year for Jonah Williams

[PDub80]

(06-25-2021, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My problem is not with the timeline.  My problem is with your claim that the Bengals "plan A" was to sign Thuney or Zeitler and that "blew up in their face"

Since you are the expert on all Bengal media please provide a link to back up your claim that the front office made offers to either of those guys or even tried to get them to visit here.  Or at least some comments from the front office that those guys were their main targets.

I'll wait.

The first morning of free agency they were outbid for Thuney by a landslide (I know the family very well and am personal friends with them - this is true)... the Bengals went for Thuney first. That door was slammed in their face.

They offered Zeitler day 1 of tampering as well, after Thuney was gone, and the Ravens outbid them. This was announced March 15th during tampering period. Literally the first morning of. The Bengals were outbid for him https://www.google.com/amp/s/bengalswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/15/bengals-tried-reunite-kevin-zeitler-free-agency/amp/

I mean, you don't have to wait... google it. Or, am I your personal teacher? Your Sensei? I mean, this was all nationally reported as it happened. I'm not making wild claims and then asking you to perform in depth, deep dives into the dark web.

[sandwedge]

(06-25-2021, 07:44 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Sure it does. If they would have been able to trade for Hopkins they don't draft Chase or make a play for Golladay.

Who would we have given them for Hopkins? I don't think I have ever heard the Bengals were trying to obtain Hopkins last year?

[PDub80]

(06-26-2021, 12:15 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Who would we have given them for Hopkins? I don't think I have ever heard the Bengals were trying to obtain Hopkins last year?

Who they discussed or if it went beyond preliminaries is up for debate. I recall hearing it came down to the Texans wanting draft capital the Bengals weren't willing to part with as well as a player which the Benglas were ok letting go. 

There are several articles coving it and it was widely reported that the Bengals made what they felt was a strong offer but, ummmmm, let's be honest here.... That could mean some Skyline coupons and a 15% off voucher at the Pro Shop for all we know. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/2872973001

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cincyjungle.com/platform/amp/2020/3/19/21186543/texans-news-cardinals-nfl-trade-rumors-bengals-deandre-hopkins

[fredtoast]

(06-25-2021, 08:03 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  the Bengals went for Thuney first. 

I don't believe they ever even made an offer to Thuney.

From the link you posted

With Thuney’s numbers checking in at $80 million, it’s clear the team wasn’t going to be in on Thuney.

How much did the family tell you the Bengals offered?

[Murdock2420]

(06-26-2021, 01:51 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Who they discussed or if it went beyond preliminaries is up for debate. I recall hearing it came down to the Texans wanting draft capital the Bengals weren't willing to part with as well as a player which the Benglas were ok letting go. 

There are several articles coving it and it was widely reported that the Bengals made what they felt was a strong offer but, ummmmm, let's be honest here.... That could mean some Skyline coupons and a 15% off voucher at the Pro Shop for all we know. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/2872973001

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cincyjungle.com/platform/amp/2020/3/19/21186543/texans-news-cardinals-nfl-trade-rumors-bengals-deandre-hopkins

For what the Texans settled for in the move of Hopkins, it wouldn't be hard to see the Bengals being involved in it.

Could have been after Mixon and draft capital, would have been similar to what they got in return from Arizona. Hopkins would have looked good out there.

[PDub80]

(06-26-2021, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't believe they ever even made an offer to Thuney.

From the link you posted

With Thuney’s numbers checking in at $80 million, it’s clear the team wasn’t going to be in on Thuney.

How much did the family tell you the Bengals offered?

Great and fair question....

I did NOT specifically ask them that directly anything like "How much did the Bengals offer Joe" or give them any crap about that. A question like that would have been incredibly invasive and out of bounds, IMO. We talk about that stuff quite a bit, however, just in terms of what it's like for them (Joe's parents) and Joe. When we discussed it last time I was over they said that everything goes through the agents and the agent checks in with Joe - not with every offer or call, but with anything that comes up as interesting or competitive/alternative offers. They let the agents deal with that other than a short list of teams Joe did NOT want to go to, the family looks at it like a job and they wanted the most money from a quality organization in a place without a crazy tax bracket and that fit Joe's personality and lifestyle.... Who wouldn't? Joe did not love living in NE or the Pats militaristic approach to football, BTW, and was pleased to be moving on.

What I WAS told regarding the Bengals is that they did call the agent with an offer, but the Chiefs offer was so far above what the Bengals were initially coming to the table with (more on that in a sec*) that once the Bengals heard the numbers they backed away from the table because that was wayyyyyy out of the realm of their thinking. That's what it means when the article says "team wasn't going to be in on Thuney". That's from BOTH sides. The Bengals weren't prepared for the number Thuney got and Thuney wasn't interested in accepting the lower number after the Chiefs opened up their vault.

^ This all happened very quickly as soon as FA tampering began. When a team calls with an amazing offer (BTW, Thuney's offer was AMAZING) and a "Take this fast or we move on", the agents are also working out these deals along the same "You do this and we will sign or we move on to the next team who will" kind of thing.  From a team's perspective this keeps the players from having weeks to shop deals and from the player's perspective it forces the teams to either commit or move on. For example: According to my source Joe really only wanted to play 3 or 4 more years, but the Chiefs AMAZING deal was for 5 with a ton of guaranteed money. So, that's what was signed. 

- After the Thuney info dropped on the Bengals head they moved on to Zeitler where the EXACT SAME THING virtually happened. The Bengals miscalculated the market on the better FA interior linemen..... TWICE after having months to prepare and a TON of money.

* Regarding the Bengals offer vs the Chiefs
- I did not speak to her about this... but there was a twitter report with screen shots (since deleted) of DMs between someone and Joe's sister where Joe's sister confirmed that the Bengals "low balled" (her words) Joe with an offer. This is really just in comparison with the Chiefs. Once that offer was tossed out there virtually any offer was going to look like a low ball. YES, I confirmed that that was her Instagram account that the DMs published had come from. So, that report turned out to be legit even though I was really really speculating that it was not.


- The Chiefs' offer to Joe could have EASILY been matched by the Bengals and I am kind of appalled at the Bengals lack of vision and unwillingness to be creative in order to add Joe to their roster. It's a shame, really.


See, the Chiefs were cap strapped for this year. Compared to the Bengals they had little room. However, the Chiefs saw what was coming with the new TV deal and they forecasted that the cap would be going up TREMENDOUSLY in a short period of time. So they made Joe's deal for a little money THIS season, but for a TON of guaranteed money in the years following. The Bengals could have done the same thing, only given more money THIS season than the Chiefs and it wouldn't have been any kind of issue because the cap is going to go up like crazy. Instead, the Bengals opted to ignore that and assume the cap wouldn't be going up with any kind of huge jump.


The Bengals hedged while the Chiefs gambled all in. The Chiefs won on that bet.


This is why I said the Bengals had to keep going down their list of plans. I don't hate where they ended up, but it certainly wasn't on plan A. It could and should have ended up way way better. If the Bengals had better foresight and some balls to go along with it, massive improvements could have been made to the line. unfortunately, the Bengals conservative nature won the day (once again). Fortune favors the bold and the Chiefs are bold. 

[Wes Mantooth]

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[muskiesfan]

Very insightful post PDub. Thank you for the information from the Thuney family.

I am not at all surprised at how things played out or at how poorly the Bengals gauged the interior OL market. Fred can bring up Boling all he wants, but the Bengals do not seem to be willing to pay big money to the G/C positions. Even when they drafted Zeitler, there were mentions from beat writers how the team never really planned on offering him a second contract and that they did not make him offer before he left. I agree that he was overpaid, but they didn't place any real value on their 1st round G then and they don't seem to be placing a ton of value on that position now.

The biggest problem with Carman is that if he is successful, he probably doesn't get a second contract from us.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2021, 12:55 PM)PDub80 Wrote: See, the Chiefs were cap strapped for this year. Compared to the Bengals they had little room. However, the Chiefs saw what was coming with the new TV deal and they forecasted that the cap would be going up TREMENDOUSLY in a short period of time. So they made Joe's deal for a little money THIS season, but for a TON of guaranteed money in the years following. The Bengals could have done the same thing, only given more money THIS season than the Chiefs and it wouldn't have been any kind of issue because the cap is going to go up like crazy. Instead, the Bengals opted to ignore that and assume the cap wouldn't be going up with any kind of huge jump.


The Bengals hedged while the Chiefs gambled all in. The Chiefs won on that bet.


This is why I said the Bengals had to keep going down their list of plans. I don't hate where they ended up, but it certainly wasn't on plan A. It could and should have ended up way way better. If the Bengals had better foresight and some balls to go along with it, massive improvements could have been made to the line. unfortunately, the Bengals conservative nature won the day (once again). Fortune favors the bold and the Chiefs are bold. 

You can't really compare the plans f the Chiefs and the Bengals.

Chiefs have a Super Bowl roster with one or two holes.  Bengals have a last place roster with holes all over the place.  I am sure the Bengals could have work out contracts to pay Thuney and Golladay $19 million a year each in order to out bid what they signed for with other teams, but that would have made it hard to address all the other problems with our roster.

So let me ask you this.  If I decide to go car shopping for the best car I can get for $30K and the first place I go I can't get a car I want for that price.  Does that mean my plan has "blown up in my face"?  Bengals had some interest in Zeitler and Thuney, but only at the right price.  And I am sure the Bengals knew they might not sign either of them. 

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2021, 01:04 PM)muskiesfan Wrote:  Fred can bring up Boling all he wants, but the Bengals do not seem to be willing to pay big money to the G/C positions.

The biggest problem with Carman is that if he is successful, he probably doesn't get a second contract from us.

You can ignore Boling all you want, but that does not mean he did not exist.

What people keep forgetting is that Both Steinbach and Zeitler were not just well-paid.  They were paid like the top one or two players in the entire league at their position.  And history seems to show they they were both over-paid.  Yet people still want to bash the Bengals for not paying MORE than what other teams paid when they over-paid them.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-28-2021, 10:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What people keep forgetting is that Both Steinbach and Zeitler were not just well-paid.  They were paid like the top one or two players in the entire league at their position.  And history seems to show they they were both over-paid.  Yet people still want to bash the Bengals for not paying MORE than what other teams paid when they over-paid them.

Yeah, I don't find this argument to be sound (the Bengals would have had to pay more than what other teams overpaid them.)

If you ink an extension in advance you almost always pay less than you would once a player hits the open market.  This happens for two very simple reasons: 

1.) By giving a deal a year early you're offering security.  It's insurance for the player in case they get injured playing out the final of their contract, or if they have a down year that would hurt their value.  The team has some leverage in this situation, and the player has motivation to lock himself into a raise vs. betting on his future.

2.) You're competing againt no one but yourself, and the market prices that have already been set.  This changes entirely once a player hits the free market.  Supply and demand goes into effect, and now you're competing against other teams, other cities, and potentially newer contracts that have increased prices.

So, I don't think it's fair at all to use the dollar amounts for what these players saw in free agency and automatically assume that's what it would have cost to keep them.  Had we extended them prior to their final season we'd most likley be looking at completely different numbers.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(06-25-2021, 01:05 PM)PDub80 Wrote: PS: Plan A was to trade for Deandre Hopkins before the 2020 season, but they failed at the attempt.

What's your source for this?

I know the Bengals had discussions with the Texans but that's a long way from them going into the off-season with him as Plan A.

[muskiesfan]

(06-28-2021, 10:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You can ignore Boling all you want, but that does not mean he did not exist.

What people keep forgetting is that Both Steinbach and Zeitler were not just well-paid.  They were paid like the top one or two players in the entire league at their position.  And history seems to show they they were both over-paid.  Yet people still want to bash the Bengals for not paying MORE than what other teams paid when they over-paid them.

I'm not ignoring Boling, but a couple of outliers aren't the norm. The Bengals do not show that they place much value on IOL with how they spend. I'm not bashing the Bengals for paying either of them, I'm bashing the Bengals for not ponying up the money for quality IOL and not retaining the ones they drafted.