Joe Burrow's stats from last year...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-07-2021, 04:17 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I like the additions to the oline. Reiff is the biggest upgrade in my book. I thought Spain did well last year. Carman or xsf should be an upgrade at right guard.

But overall I feel like we upgraded to a middle of the pack offensive line (hopefully). I’m not expecting a dominant group. Maybe they can improve in time to a top ten group, but it’ll take time. I expect us to struggle a bit against teams like the Ravens, 9ers, etc. But we’ll see.

I was mainly expressing my frustration with throwing Burrow to the wolves last year when the season was over already. It was just idiotic and maybe I should move on already. But it was a pretty epic ‘duck’ up and obviously makes things a lot more challenging then they needed to be for Burrow. Hopefully the teams past failures are behind them and they learned something.

Yeah, we all saw it coming it seems besides the coaches. Hope they learned from it.

I like our FA and the Draft this year but it seems lots preferred different and that is okay.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2021, 01:40 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: The line with spain and reiff is still a bottom 5-7 o-line

If thinking that makes me delusional, so be it.

Despite our #1 RB missing over half of the season the Bengals still had more rushing yards than 8 other NFL teams and averaged more yards per carry than 6.

Despite our O-line being riddled with injuries the Bengals still had a sack percentage better than 7 other teams.

Our O-line last year was bad, but it was not the worst in the league.  It is delusional to believe that with a new coach and a few new starters it will get worse or not improve at all.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 01:40 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: The depth is awful, and the starters aren’t good.

The line with spain and reiff is still a bottom 5-7 o-line

If thinking that makes me delusional, so be it.

You are also forgetting about Jonah having a year under his belt starting after a promising first year starting at LT and you are
forgetting about our 2nd round pick in Carman. Reiff had less penalties and gave up less sacks than Joe Thuney last season.

Spain with an entire Offseason in Pollack's system could get back to where he once was, a top pass protecting Guard.

The depth needs to improve for damn sure and we need to add another OL after cuts, the best guy available.

D'Ante Smith and Trey Hill have been impressing in TC as well. Not everything is doom and gloom and just make excuses for 
Zac Taylor. This is his make or break year. Don't give him a pass, the trenches are improved on both sides.

[Frank Booth]

(08-08-2021, 02:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You are also forgetting about Jonah having a year under his belt starting after a promising first year starting at LT and you are
forgetting about our 2nd round pick in Carman. Reiff had less penalties and gave up less sacks than Joe Thuney last season.

Spain with an entire Offseason in Pollack's system could get back to where he once was, a top pass protecting Guard.

The depth needs to improve for damn sure and we need to add another OL after cuts, the best guy available.

D'Ante Smith and Trey Hill have been impressing in TC as well. Not everything is doom and gloom and just make excuses for 
Zac Taylor. This is his make or break year. Don't give him a pass, the trenches are improved on both sides.

A lot of this is just optimism without any real substance behind it.

You’re banking on Carman being good his first year, saying that Smith and Trey Hill should be good because they’re impressing at TC.

Doesn’t mean much to me until I see it on the field against another opponent.

And I’m not making excuses for Taylor. I will not be sad to see him leave after this season. Because he WILL be gone by 2022

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 02:24 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: A lot of this is just optimism without any real substance behind it.

You’re banking on Carman being good his first year, saying that Smith and Trey Hill should be good because they’re impressing at TC.

Doesn’t mean much to me until I see it on the field against another opponent.

And I’m not making excuses for Taylor. I will not be sad to see him leave after this season. Because he WILL be gone by 2022

We will see. All I know is if Taylor doesn't have a winning season this year EVERY Bengal fan should want him gone.

[Frank Booth]

(08-08-2021, 02:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We will see. All I know is if Taylor doesn't have a winning season this year EVERY Bengal fan should want him gone.

If the o-line stinks again, I want a new GM

[Bengalholic]

(08-08-2021, 01:54 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: *Sorry, i had a bunch of other stuff typed out, but i'm just not feeling the Burrow vs Dalton debate anymore. My following statement is the only original thing left of what i typed.


I'm not trying to argue with you. In this thread, i'm just saying that Burrow is a more talented QB and i don't get how anyone can debate that. A full season with a moderate amount of health will bear that out. 

Yeah, even when you account for era and comparisons versus peers, Burrow clearly demonstrated more in his rookie season, especially when you consider how much more Burrow had on his plate than Dalton, and the overall situations of the 2.

When you look at per game averages, Burrow was asked to throw the ball the 3rd most of any QB last year, and also completed the 3rd most passes per game. He also ranked 10th in passing yards per game. Andy was near the bottom in all 3 areas in 2011...and was not asked to drop back an insane amount during his rookie year.

Dalton also had a veteran head coach, a veteran backup QB to get advice from, an explosive AJ Green and an o-line that ranked 13th on the season. Burrow had none of that and still put up better overall performances. 

Everyone will have their opinions of course, and I was always an Andy supporter, but the evidence isn't even debatable as far as I can see, when it comes to who had a more impactful rookie season in terms of play. Now, Andy won more games obviously and deserves credit for that, but the surrounding circumstances and him not having too much put on his shoulders, played a big part. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 02:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, even when you account for era and comparisons versus peers, Burrow clearly demonstrated more in his rookie season, especially when you consider how much more Burrow had on his plate than Dalton, and the overall situations of the 2.

When you look at per game averages, Burrow was asked to throw the ball the 3rd most of any QB last year, and also completed the 3rd most passes per game. He also ranked 10th in passing yards per game. Andy was near the bottom in all 3 areas in 2011...and was not asked to drop back an insane amount during his rookie year.

Dalton also had a veteran head coach, a veteran backup QB to get advice from, an explosive AJ Green and an o-line that ranked 13th on the season. Burrow had none of that and still put up better overall performances. 

Everyone will have their opinions of course, and I was always an Andy supporter, but the evidence isn't even debatable as far as I can see, when it comes to who had a more impactful rookie season in terms of play. Now, Andy won more games obviously and deserves credit for that, but the surrounding circumstances and him not having too much put on his shoulders, played a big part. 

Great post, completely agree Holic.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-08-2021, 01:54 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: *Sorry, i had a bunch of other stuff typed out, but i'm just not feeling the Burrow vs Dalton debate anymore. My following statement is the only original thing left of what i typed.


I'm not trying to argue with you. In this thread, i'm just saying that Burrow is a more talented QB and i don't get how anyone can debate that. A full season with a moderate amount of health will bear that out. 

I wasn't looking for an argument either. I'm more fascinated by how much the league has changed in just a decade than anything else.

(08-08-2021, 02:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, even when you account for era and comparisons versus peers, Burrow clearly demonstrated more in his rookie season, especially when you consider how much more Burrow had on his plate than Dalton, and the overall situations of the 2.

When you look at per game averages, Burrow was asked to throw the ball the 3rd most of any QB last year, and also completed the 3rd most passes per game. He also ranked 10th in passing yards per game. Andy was near the bottom in all 3 areas in 2011...and was not asked to drop back an insane amount during his rookie year.

Dalton also had a veteran head coach, a veteran backup QB to get advice from, an explosive AJ Green and an o-line that ranked 13th on the season. Burrow had none of that and still put up better overall performances. 

Everyone will have their opinions of course, and I was always an Andy supporter, but the evidence isn't even debatable as far as I can see, when it comes to who had a more impactful rookie season in terms of play. Now, Andy won more games obviously and deserves credit for that, but the surrounding circumstances and him not having too much put on his shoulders, played a big part. 

I'm willing to admit that there's an argument for either, but to say either season is "clearly" better is a stretch. You bring up the difficulties that Burrow had to deal with (Covid, etc) but Dalton didn't even get a playbook until preseason due to the lockout. Was Burrow's sitch tougher? Debatable.

Statistically - judged against peers - Dalton's season was better. You can debate that the offense was overall better, and I'd concede that. I trust Jay more than Taylor. Green was obviously better. The line was obviously better. Burrow had a far better WRs other than Green though, and a better receiving RB.

I'd still give the edge to Dalton as far as talent around them, but again...Dalton had the slightly better season, going off of most metrics (rating, TD%, YPA, etc) compared to his peers. 

This year should be very telling about Burrow's future. He's got more weapons around him than any Dalton year except (maybe) 2015. Only things I don't trust are the line and more importantly the offensive system/play calling. I think Burrow will be better than Dalton ever was, talent-wise. It's on everything else, as to whether or not he reaches his potential.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2021, 02:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, even when you account for era and comparisons versus peers, Burrow clearly demonstrated more in his rookie season, especially when you consider how much more Burrow had on his plate than Dalton, and the overall situations of the 2.

When you look at per game averages, Burrow was asked to throw the ball the 3rd most of any QB last year, and also completed the 3rd most passes per game. He also ranked 10th in passing yards per game. Andy was near the bottom in all 3 areas in 2011...and was not asked to drop back an insane amount during his rookie year.

Dalton also had a veteran head coach, a veteran backup QB to get advice from, an explosive AJ Green and an o-line that ranked 13th on the season. Burrow had none of that and still put up better overall performances. 

Everyone will have their opinions of course, and I was always an Andy supporter, but the evidence isn't even debatable as far as I can see, when it comes to who had a more impactful rookie season in terms of play. Now, Andy won more games obviously and deserves credit for that, but the surrounding circumstances and him not having too much put on his shoulders, played a big part. 

Throwing the ball more does not make you a better QB.  In 2019 Jared Goff and Jameis Winstead tied for the league lead in pass attempts and they both stunk.

Both Dalton and Burrow had lousy running games that finished 27th in yards per carry and about the same in rushing yards (19th in 2011, 24th in 2020)

Dalton had a better #1 WR and TE.  Burrow had a better #2 and #3 WR plus better receiving running backs. 

When you adjust for how the rule changes have effected the passing game their rookie seasons are pretty much identical.  Dalton finished ranked 20th in pass efficiency and Burrow 24th.  in 2011 Dalton's passer rating (80.4) was 3.9 points below the league average of 84.3.  In 2020 Burrow's rating (89.8) was 3.8 points behind the league average of 93.6.

One big difference was that Burrow fumbled 9 times in less than 10 full games while Dalton only fumbled 5 times in 16 games.  Another was that Burrow sacked a lot more often, but part of that was because he held onto the ball to long.  Dalton always had more of a quick release to avoid taking big losses.

Burrow has the potential to be a better QB than Dalton.  That is why he was the #1 overall pick instead of a second rounder.  But his play was last year was not that great.

[Frank Booth]

(08-08-2021, 06:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Throwing the ball more does not make you a better QB.  In 2019 Jared Goff and Jameis Winstead tied for the league lead in pass attempts and they both stunk.

Both Dalton and Burrow had lousy running games that finished 27th in yards per carry and about the same in rushing yards (19th in 2011, 24th in 2020)

Dalton had a better #1 WR and TE.  Burrow had a better #2 and #3 WR plus better receiving running backs. 

When you adjust for how the rule changes have effected the passing game their rookie seasons are pretty much identical.  Dalton finished ranked 20th in pass efficiency and Burrow 24th.  in 2011 Dalton's passer rating (80.4) was 3.9 points below the league average of 84.3.  In 2020 Burrow's rating (89.8) was 3.8 points behind the league average of 93.6.

One big difference was that Burrow fumbled 9 times in less than 10 full games while Dalton only fumbled 5 times in 16 games.  Another was that Burrow sacked a lot more often, but part of that was because he held onto the ball to long.  Dalton always had more of a quick release to avoid taking big losses.

Burrow has the potential to be a better QB than Dalton.  That is why he was the #1 overall pick instead of a second rounder.  But his play was last year was not that great.

The running game got better after Burrow got injured.

Post where the bengals ranked in YPC for weeks 1-9

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-08-2021, 06:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Throwing the ball more does not make you a better QB.  In 2019 Jared Goff and Jameis Winstead tied for the league lead in pass attempts and they both stunk.

Both Dalton and Burrow had lousy running games that finished 27th in yards per carry and about the same in rushing yards (19th in 2011, 24th in 2020)

Dalton had a better #1 WR and TE.  Burrow had a better #2 and #3 WR plus better receiving running backs. 

When you adjust for how the rule changes have effected the passing game their rookie seasons are pretty much identical.  Dalton finished ranked 20th in pass efficiency and Burrow 24th.  in 2011 Dalton's passer rating (80.4) was 3.9 points below the league average of 84.3.  In 2020 Burrow's rating (89.8) was 3.8 points behind the league average of 93.6.

One big difference was that Burrow fumbled 9 times in less than 10 full games while Dalton only fumbled 5 times in 16 games.  Another was that Burrow sacked a lot more often, but part of that was because he held onto the ball to long.  Dalton always had more of a quick release to avoid taking big losses.

Burrow has the potential to be a better QB than Dalton.  That is why he was the #1 overall pick instead of a second rounder.  But his play was last year was not that great.

I think the biggest thing missing in a lot of these conversations is Zac Taylor.  In my mind, he's been an absolutely abysmal play caller.

I've never seen receivers blanketed in an offense like his are.  People often point to lack of seperation, and I that maybe somewhat true.  But I've seen teams with slower corps than us have guys be able to get open.  It's like Taylor has absolutely no idea how to exploit a defense, specifically a zone.  Either that, or defensive coordinators know what he's doing more often than not. 

Some of the windows Burrow was forced to throw into last year were some of the worst I've ever seen.  Our guys had defenders draped all over them.  And rarely did we seem to have a guy sitting there, plopped own in a zone. wide open.  We also seemed to be scared to death to use the middle of the field.  We only use our RB's and TE's as dump-offs; they rarely run actual routes.

Maybe I'm wrong on this; I'm far from an expert.  But from a casual fan's perspective, our playcalling and scheme are need of some serious work. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 07:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think the biggest thing missing in a lot of these conversations is Zac Taylor.  In my mind, he's been an absolutely abysmal play caller.

I've never seen receivers blanketed in an offense like his are.  People often point to lack of seperation, and I that maybe somewhat true.  But I've seen teams with slower corps than us have guys be able to get open.  It's like Taylor has absolutely no idea how to exploit a defense, specifically a zone.  Either that, or defensive coordinators know what he's doing more often than not. 

Some of the windows Burrow was forced to throw into last year were some of the worst I've ever seen.  Our guys had defenders draped all over them.  And rarely did we seem to have a guy sitting there, plopped own in a zone. wide open.  We also seemed to be scared to death to use the middle of the field.  We only use our RB's and TE's as dump-offs; they rarely run actual routes.

Maybe I'm wrong on this; I'm far from an expert.  But from a casual fan's perspective, our playcalling and scheme are need of some serious work. 

Yeah and it is kind of perplexing him being an Offensive minded coach and all.

I don't think you are wrong sadly but improved OL play will help.

[impactplaya]

(08-08-2021, 07:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think the biggest thing missing in a lot of these conversations is Zac Taylor.  In my mind, he's been an absolutely abysmal play caller.

I've never seen receivers blanketed in an offense like his are.  People often point to lack of seperation, and I that maybe somewhat true.  But I've seen teams with slower corps than us have guys be able to get open.  It's like Taylor has absolutely no idea how to exploit a defense, specifically a zone.  Either that, or defensive coordinators know what he's doing more often than not. 

Some of the windows Burrow was forced to throw into last year were some of the worst I've ever seen.  Our guys had defenders draped all over them.  And rarely did we seem to have a guy sitting there, plopped own in a zone. wide open.  We also seemed to be scared to death to use the middle of the field.  We only use our RB's and TE's as dump-offs; they rarely run actual routes.

Maybe I'm wrong on this; I'm far from an expert.  But from a casual fan's perspective, our playcalling and scheme are need of some serious work. 

Defenses very quickly pick.up on the routes run by the
Bengals targets. So many teams use rub routes to get their
Targets open yet ZT rarely uses rub routes.
The Chiefs and Steelers use it to death.

I wasnt a fan of Bob Bicknell. Heres hoping
Troy Walters can coach these WRs up better
To sell.their routes better downfield

ZT is a garbage play caller. Rarely uses presnap motion
Or misdirection. He has very little creativity. 
He doesnt change the tempo unless its the last 
2 minutes of either half and the Bengals need 
A score.
A empty backfield is not creative. 
Thats called leaving your QB out to hang.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 08:33 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Defenses very quickly pick.up on the routes run by the
Bengals targets. So many teams use rub routes to get their
Targets open yet ZT rarely uses rub routes.
The Chiefs and Steelers use it to death.

I wasnt a fan of Bob Bicknell. Heres hoping
Troy Walters can coach these WRs up better
To sell.their routes better downfield

ZT is a garbage play caller. Rarely uses presnap motion
Or misdirection. He has very little creativity. 
He doesnt change the tempo unless its the last 
2 minutes of either half and the Bengals need 
A score.
A empty backfield is not creative. 
Thats called leaving your QB out to hang.

Boyd has been praising Troy Walters. Thanks for bringing him up, could be another good pickup on the coaching staff 
besides Pollack and Hobby. Troy has actually played WR in the NFL, I know that most of the best coaches are not the
great players of the past but it has to be nice to have a coach that actually played your position.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-08-2021, 12:34 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 1st year.

Dalton 58.1 comp%
Burrow 65.3 comp%

Dalton 212.4 ypg
Burrow 268.8 ypg

Dalton 3.9 TD%
Burrow 3.2 TD%

Dalton 2.5 INT%
Burrow 1.2 INT%

Dalton 6.6 YPA
Burrow 6.7 YPA

Dalton 80.4 rating
Burrow 89.8 rating

Who was slightly behind?

3 stats you left off Dalton lead team to 9 wins , Joe was on pace for 3 or 4. ,4th quarter comebacks I believe Dalton had 3  to Burrow 0, playoffs 1 to 0.

So if you want to say draw fine, still my point holds, Burrow was no more special than Dalton especially with the expectation as #1 pick vs 2nd round pick in Andy but after 1 season not that is a bad thing, Dalton had a very good rookie year also and as a whole Bengal nation was pumped after 2011 now we are pumped with Burrow   but he is expected to be at a different level than Andy so this year I hope that happens.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 08:51 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: 3 stats you left off Dalton lead team to 9 wins , Joe was on pace for 3 or 4. ,4th quarter comebacks I believe Dalton had 3  to Burrow 0, playoffs 1 to 0.

So if you want to say draw fine, still my point holds, Burrow was no any mor special than Dalton after 1 season not that is a bad thing, Dalton had a very good rookie year  but he is expected to be better so this year I hope that happens.

Dalton had a better team, better coach so far and a better O-line. If you cannot take that into account you're nuts Essex...

There is no comparison. Burrow is the most talented QB that has ever came out of college as he had the best season as a QB in 
college at the biggest stage in the SEC of any QB ever. Name another guy or shut your face. Sick of the comparisons. Dalton does
not deserve it, nor does Burrow. They are completely different in about every aspect.

We all hope it comes to fruition as Bengal fans. No need to compare them. Burrow will be fine if our OL protects him which I think
they will and we get our running game going which I think we may from the new news about the Wide Zone scheme Pollack is 
implementing. This should be our bounce back, breakout year and if not get rid of Zac Taylor.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-08-2021, 08:51 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: 3 stats you left off Dalton lead team to 9 wins , Joe was on pace for 3 or 4. ,4th quarter comebacks I believe Dalton had 3  to Burrow 0, playoffs 1 to 0.

So if you want to say draw fine, still my point holds, Burrow was no  more special than Dalton especially with the expectation as #1 pick vs 2nd round pick in Andy but after 1 season not that is a bad thing, Dalton had a very good rookie year also and as a whole Bengal nation was pumped after 2011 now we are pumped with Burrow   but he is expected to be at a different level than Andy   so this year I hope that happens.

Burrow ain't no Herbert! amiright??!! 

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2021, 09:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:  Burrow is the most talented QB that has ever came out of college as he had the best season as a QB in 
college at the biggest stage in the SEC of any QB ever.

OMG!  You actually believe that college stats determine who is the most talented QB?


That is just precious.


I am sure you will make a lot of money betting on Kyle Trask to be a much better NFL QB than Trevor Lawrence.  Can't believe that every single NFL scout missed on that.

[*Nately120*]

Bengals fans - It's awesome that Carman has to work his way up the depth chart and earn his top spot.
Also Bengals fans - Burrow is the best QB we've ever had