Sample 0 Catches

[*ochocincos*]

(09-21-2021, 10:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can't help it.  When I see people that need educating I feel obligated to help them.  Vast knowledge is a gift that should be shared.

Last year the Packers had the #1 scoring offense in the league.  They also had TE Marcedes Lewis play 422 snaps while only getting 10 receptions.

The Saints had the #5 offense.  They also had TE Josh Hill play 359 snaps with only 8 receptions.

The Falcons had Luke Stocker play 503 snaps with only 7 receptions.

The Steelers had Vance McDonald play 684 snaps with only 15 receptions

The Vikings had Tyler Conklin play 449 snaps and only get 19 receptions

Raiders had Jason Witten play 405 snaps with only 13 receptions

Cardinals had Darren Daniels play 365 snaps (in only 12 games) with only 8 receptions.

Miami had Adam Shaheen play 367 snaps with only 12 receptions.

And these are only teams that finished in the top half of the league in offense last year.  I am sure I could find many more examples from the other 16 teams.

How many of those TEs were the primary TE on the team last year? (None)

Packers - Robert Tonyan was the primary TE (52 rec, 586 yards, 11 TDs)
Saints - Jared Cook was the primary TE (37 rec, 504 yards, 7 TDs)
Falcons - Hayden Hurst was the primary TE (56 rec, 571 yards, 6 TDs)
Steelers - Eric Ebron was the primary TE (56 rec, 558 yards, 5 TDs)
Vikings - Irv Smith was the primary TE (30 rec, 365 yards, 5 TDs)
Raiders - Darren Waller was the primary TE (107 rec, 1196 yards, 9 TDs)
Cardinals - Dan Arnold was the primary TE (31 rec, 438 yards, 4 TDs)
Dolphins - Mike Gesicki was the primary TE (53 rec, 703 yards, 6 TDs)

Meanwhile, Sample was the primary TE for the Bengals last year and performed lower than all the primary TEs above in terms of receiving production.

Also, out of the above guys you had listed, they were either A) drafted Rd 4 or later, B) wayyyy past their prime and cheap FA, and/or C) traded away because of a lack of production (Shaheen).

Can't we all just agree that most fans don't like taking a blocking TE prior to Day 3 of the draft and feel Sample was a reach because of it?
It's not Sample's fault he got taken so early, it's Taylor's. Taylor values a blocking TE higher than what most fans do.

For what Sample probably was drafted for (blocking), he's been good. It's just not what we wanted in a TE. We wanted a receiving weapon.

[fredtoast]

(09-21-2021, 11:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How many of those TEs were the primary TE on the team last year? (None)

Sample is not our primary TE this year.  That is what we are talking about.

My point is that people here who claim that any TE who does not contribute big receiving numbers is "completely useless" just does not understand football.

Sample is our #2 TE.  Just like all the guys I listed he will probably play 20-25 snaps a game.  And like all of those players I listed his blocking will be very important to the offense.

[BengalChris]

(09-20-2021, 10:37 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I wanted to bring up something that we can all agree on, Sample is just useless out there. What a joke.

I’ve seen teams alleviate pressure by utilizing TEs as that quick safety net ala Heath Miller or Jason Witten, but have we even tried?  No, he’s just out there for blocking… Just put in a lineman as eligible receiver to do his job. Either that or actually throw some short stuff over the middle.

I’ve defended Sandra a lot, but at this point it’s pathetic, there is absolutely no reason to use him as a blocker if he contributes nothing in the pass game. He isn’t fooling anyone.

In this video Lap just isn't convincing at all. The number times he has to repeat himself to fill in the time is telling.

[BengalChris]

(09-22-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sample is not our primary TE this year.  That is what we are talking about.

My point is that people here who claim that any TE who does not contribute big receiving numbers is "completely useless" just does not understand football.

Sample is our #2 TE.  Just like all the guys I listed he will probably play 20-25 snaps a game.  And like all of those players I listed his blocking will be very important to the offense.

I believe there's a rather large difference between "big receiving numbers" and "no receiving numbers".

 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-22-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sample is not our primary TE this year.  That is what we are talking about.

My point is that people here who claim that any TE who does not contribute big receiving numbers is "completely useless" just does not understand football.

Sample is our #2 TE.  Just like all the guys I listed he will probably play 20-25 snaps a game.  And like all of those players I listed his blocking will be very important to the offense.

He's not this year, but many believe that if you are going to take a TE in the 2nd round, they should become your primary TE within a year, maybe two.
Also, you used last year's stats to make an argument, but Sample was the starting TE for nearly all of the year due to Uzomah's injury whereas none of the other guys were their team's primary TE last year. So that's why I thought the comparison was off.

As I pointed out, the #2 TEs you mentioned were all taken either on Day 3 of the draft, cheap vet FAs way past their prime (Witten, McDonald), or traded away from their original team prior to their rookie deal being up because they underperformed (Shaheen).

Fans don't want to see a 2nd round pick as a backup 3 years into their career.

Had Sample been selected in Rd 4, I think people would be more ok with him.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2021, 09:43 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Fans don't want to see a 2nd round pick as a backup 3 years into their career.

Had Sample been selected in Rd 4, I think people would be more ok with him.

Again I agree with you, and that is the biggest problem with many fans here. They hate on players for reasons that have nothing to do what is happening on the field.  A players value on the field should not be determined by where he was drafted or how he dresses or his politics.

And my original point still stands. Just because a TE does not contribute much to the passing game does not mean he is "completely useless"

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-22-2021, 10:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again I agree with you, and that is the biggest problem with many fans here. They hate on players for reasons that have nothing to do what is happening on the field.  A players value on the field should not be determined by where he was drafted or how he dresses or his politics.

And my original point still stands. Just because a TE does not contribute much to the passing game does not mean he is "completely useless"

For the record, I’d be completely fine with all of your points and being “educated” on the matter. Your just a massive *****. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt throughout my time here but time and time again you’re a giant asshole. All you had to do was not say shit like “some people don’t understand football” and id listen. You know it’s annoying as **** which is why you’ve said it multiple times. You’re a scumbag, gfy.

[grampahol]

Stanley Morgan, Auden Tate, Trent Irwin and Mitchel Wilcox all have 0 catches and they're all WR's except Wilcox..  The thing is when you have Boyd, Chase and Higgins and Uzomah we would all be up in arms cussing Taylor one side and down the other even more if they were targeting Sample at all..
Blame him for blocking, sure, but catch numbers?

[GreenCornBengal]

(09-22-2021, 10:52 AM)grampahol Wrote: Stanley Morgan, Auden Tate, Trent Irwin and Mitchel Wilcox all have 0 catches and they're all WR's except Wilcox..  The thing is when you have Boyd, Chase and Higgins and Uzomah we would all be up in arms cussing Taylor one side and down the other even more if they were targeting Sample at all..
Blame him for blocking, sure, but catch numbers?

This isn’t true, the guys you mentioned don’t even touch the field. Targeting Sample and or Uzomah on short routes can alleviate pressure if one corextly and as I’ve said throughout this thread if he has 0 receiving ability/threat then don’t run him on routes which they currently do anyways.

[NUGDUKWE]

(09-22-2021, 11:09 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This isn’t true, the guys you mentioned don’t even touch the field. Targeting Sample and or Uzomah on short routes can alleviate pressure if one corextly and as I’ve said throughout this thread if he has 0 receiving ability/threat then don’t run him on routes which they currently do anyways.

I agree our top 3 WR should dominate the target share. But we need to spread the ball around and some short to intermediate passes can help Burrow. I also think Sample is a better receiver than people give him credit for. If I had my way I'd let Sample get some short targets/screens and have Uzomah be more in the short to intermediate range. I also think we need to get Mixon some targets as well as Chris Evans.

[Southpaw Frerotte]

(09-21-2021, 05:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what you are trying to say.

We were discussing Sample's blocking ability.  I used "blocking stats" to address his blocking ability.  You tried to use something else.

Now you are refusing to back up your original claim by trying to move the goalposts.

Lol do you even know what moving the goal posts even means?  An example of moving the goal posts would be to claim Sample is "one of the best blocking tight ends" in the league to only then cite his pass block rating as evidence, while completely disregarding his poor run block rating.  So what is it Fred?  Is Sample "one of the best" blocking tight ends or pass blocking tight ends?  If it's the former, I would like to see your sources for that.  If it's the latter, well then it seems like you may have "moved the goal posts".    

[Fan_in_Kettering]

In the Marvin Lewis/Zac Taylor era pass catching tight ends have been few and far between. Outside of Jermaine Gresham and Tyler Eifert most tight ends have predominately been blockers.

[Whatever]

(09-22-2021, 11:43 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I agree our top 3 WR should dominate the target share. But we need to spread the ball around and some short to intermediate passes can help Burrow. I also think Sample is a better receiver than people give him credit for. If I had my way I'd let Sample get some short targets/screens and have Uzomah be more in the short to intermediate range. I also think we need to get Mixon some targets as well as Chris Evans.

Problem is, defenses are sitting on the short stuff.  They have to take shots deep to take them out of that.

It's pretty apparent through 2 games that the Bengals offense rolls when they are getting the ball to Chase and flailing when they aren't.  Game 1, they do absolutely nothing most of the 1st half until they hit Chase a couple of times to get their first TD drive going and then the bomb to close the half.  They do nothing all game long against the Bears, then they hit the deep ball to Chase and they nearly come back to win.  The only guy I want to see getting game planned to get the ball more is Ja'Marr Chase.  Get Chase going, and everything else opens up.

[NUGDUKWE]

(09-22-2021, 12:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: Problem is, defenses are sitting on the short stuff.  They have to take shots deep to take them out of that.

It's pretty apparent through 2 games that the Bengals offense rolls when they are getting the ball to Chase and flailing when they aren't.  Game 1, they do absolutely nothing most of the 1st half until they hit Chase a couple of times to get their first TD drive going and then the bomb to close the half.  They do nothing all game long against the Bears, then they hit the deep ball to Chase and they nearly come back to win.  The only guy I want to see getting game planned to get the ball more is Ja'Marr Chase.  Get Chase going, and everything else opens up.

I don't disagree with needing to continue to get Chase the ball especially on deep throws. But the problem with the defense sitting is we were running everyone short. We run on 1st and 2nd and leave ourselves a 3rd and 4 and run everyone one 6 yd routes. One of the sacks on sunday came on a WR screen to Chase that he forgot the play and just wondered down field and left Burrow no choice but to try and run. So why not use Sample in a screen or Mixon? Or send the receivers deep with one of the TE's underneath. 

[fredtoast]

(09-21-2021, 11:25 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I stand corrected. Drew Sample can whiff on blocks, not catch a pass, and still be a highly valuable member of this offense. I never knew he was right up there with Jason Witten and Mercedes Lewis. Thanks for the 101.

Maybe you don't understand how these blocking grades work. Since there is no TE in the league who never misses a block they look at all plays instead of just one. And based on ALL the plays Sample is a very good blocker who helps the offense.

And Witten and Lewis contributed nothing in the passing game last year. I posted the numbers but i guess you did not see them.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2021, 12:27 PM)Southpaw Frerotte Wrote: Lol do you even know what moving the goal posts even means?  An example of moving the goal posts would be to claim Sample is "one of the best blocking tight ends" in the league to only then cite his pass block rating as evidence, while completely disregarding his poor run block rating.  So what is it Fred?  Is Sample "one of the best" blocking tight ends or pass blocking tight ends?  If it's the former, I would like to see your sources for that.  If it's the latter, well then it seems like you may have "moved the goal posts".    

Sorry, but using blocking rankings to evaluate blocking is not "moving the goalposts".

I have also ptesented the PFF grades for BOTH pass blocking and run blocking.  And they are almost identical. 

[CJD]

We had a feeling he was a reach in the 2nd round and he has since proven us right. The people defending the pick were merely putting faith in our new "wunderkind" head coach who was apparently so brilliant that he completely skipped the OC role on his way to head coaching. Now that we know the truth (that ZT is a dumbass), I doubt a single person is still defending this pick.

[Southpaw Frerotte]

(09-22-2021, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but using blocking rankings to evaluate blocking is not "moving the goalposts".

I have also ptesented the PFF grades for BOTH pass blocking and run blocking.  And they are almost identical. 

First, you didn't present the PFF grades, another poster did. Don't take credit for someone else's subscription and work. Amongst TEs last season with atleast 100 snaps, he's ranked 21st in Pass Block rating @ 72.6 and tied for 8th in Run Block rating @ 72.1.  Not bad, but not great either.  And when you factor in he graded out overall at 61.4 and was a 2nd round pick, there's really not much else to debate on this topic.  

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2021, 05:04 PM)Southpaw Frerotte Wrote: First, you didn't present the PFF grades, another poster did.  Don't take credit for someone else's subscription and work.  

This is getting ridiculouse.  I get stats from all over the internet.  It doesn't matter what my source is as long as they are correct.

(09-22-2021, 05:04 PM)Southpaw Frerotte Wrote:   Amongst TEs last season with atleast 100 snaps, he's ranked 21st in Pass Block rating @ 72.6 and tied for 8th in Run Block rating @ 72.1.  Not bad, but not great either.

Here you go again.

You forgot to tell everyone how many TEs had at least 100 snaps.  21st may not sound impressive until you realize it is probably in the top 15%-20% in the league.

[fredtoast]

(09-22-2021, 10:30 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: For the record, I’d be completely fine with all of your points and being “educated” on the matter. Your just a massive *****. I try to give you the benefit of the doubt throughout my time here but time and time again you’re a giant asshole. All you had to do was not say shit like “some people don’t understand football” and id listen. You know it’s annoying as **** which is why you’ve said it multiple times. You’re a scumbag, gfy.

This is a football message board.  I have not made one comment about you personally other than your opinion on football issues.

If you can't handle someone disagreeing with your opinion on football without cursing and hurling personal insults then you might need to stay off of football message boards.