Mike Brown and Offensive linemen....some random history

[fredtoast]

Here are some facts about how Mike Brown has dealt with the O-line since '91.

--Over the last 7 drafts the Bengals have selected 5 O-linemen in the first 2 rounds. In the 24 previous drafts the Bengals only selected 6 O-linemen in the first two rounds. So there was a time when the Bengals refused to use high draft picks on O-line, but that is not true anymore.

--While the Bengals have more than tripled their rate of drafting O-linemen in the first two rounds the difference in quality is staggering. The 6 prior to '15 were Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Andrew Whitworth, Andre Smith, and Eric Zeitler. (Some consider Smith a bust, but he was one of the better RTs in the league from '11-'13) The 5 since '15 were Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Billy Price, Jonah Williams, and Jackson Carman. (Jonah is finally playing like a first round pick. The question is his ability to stay healthy. I still like Carman's potential a lot, but he has not contributed anything yet). So the problem is not that the Bengals don't value O-linemen. Instead the problem has been scouting/development.

--In 2018, for the first time in team history, the Bengals traded for an established starter on the O-line. Cordy Glenn was a high second round pick who had started since his rookie season and whose second contract had made him the 8th highest paid OT in the league. But, like our recent high draft picks, that also failed.

--This year, again for the first time in team history, the Bengals signed an established top-level starter in free agency. They made Riley Rieff the 10th highest paid RT in the league. So far that moves has worked out great.

--The '05 O-line was arguably the best in team history. They set a team record for fewest sacks allowed while Rudi Johnson set the team single-season rushing record. Mike Brown realized their value. The problem was that all five starters were hitting free agency at the same time. There was no way they could keep them all. Center Rich Braham got a contract extension in '05. In '06 Levi Jones and Willie Anderson got contract extensions that made them the highest paid OT tandem in the league. Bobbie Williams was also re-signed in '06. That made it pretty much impossible to re-sign Eric Steinbach when he as rated as the #1 O-line free agent in '07. With Andrew Whitworth waiting to step in it would have been ridiculous to pay Steinbach what he got from the Browns. The $49 million deal made him the second highest paid OG in the league. Eric was good but not near that good. He was a ProBowl alternate one time but the Browns released him with two year left on the contract. It is ironic that Steinbach is often cited as proof that Mike Brown is cheap with OGs when at that time Mike Brown was spending the most ever on his O-line.

--The Bengals used to be good at finding free agent value. It is hard to say if it was scouting or development but the Bengals got a lot of good play from Rich Braham (cut by the Cards), Bobbie Williams (second round pick considered a bust with the Eagles), Evan Mathis (cut by 2 teams in 2 years before signing with Bengals), and UDFA Kyle Cook (grossly underrated, only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts '09-'11 before injury ruined his career). Also, if you believe in free-market economics then the Bengals also did well developing UDFA Nate Livings, 4th round Pick Stacy Andrews, and 4th round pick Anthony Collins.

--2009 may have clouded Mike Browns vision on offensive linemen. That year the Bengals won a division title with an O-line that got 44 combined starts from 3 undrafted free agents an a 4th round pick who came into that season with only 13 total NFL starts. Many of our recent "low dollar" additions to our O-line have had much more experience than that. John Miller (47 starts with Bills), Bobby Hart (21 starts with Giants), Xavier Su'a-Filo (53 starts with Texans and Cowboys), and Quinton Spain (66 starts with Titans and Bills).

[XenoMorph]

Last 7 drafts is that when the rookie wage scale kicked in? before first rounders and high picks got some BIG contracts out the gate

Damn that Stacey Andrews guy took us for a lot of money

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 11:15 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Last 7 drafts is that when the rookie wage scale kicked in?  before first rounders and high picks got some BIG contracts out the gate

Rookie wage scale changed 11 years ago.

But since Mike Brown was willing to pay big money to O-linemen before  that (Anderson, Jones, Whitworth) I don't think that made any difference.

[XenoMorph]

(09-23-2021, 11:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Rookie wage scale changed 11 years ago.

But since Mike Brown was willing to pay big money to O-linemen before  that (Anderson, Jones, Whitworth) I don't think that made any difference.

Right i just mean a reason we didnt see high draft picks going to OG and OC is the value of the position vs what was paid out at those times..

Brown has never had a problem paying people hes made several the highest paid at their positions over the years.      Sometimes they dont all work out injuries or what have you.  But its hard to see the future and easy to see the past.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 11:15 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Damn that Stacey Andrews guy took us for a lot of money

Not really.  He was a started in '07 playing for peanuts under his rookie contract.  He was not worth the franchise tag in '08, but he was a decent starter. It was only one season for $7.5 million.

The Eagles were the ones who got burned.

[Hammerstripes]

The most important things that I take from this post:

1. They USED to be automatic when they drafted linemen in the top 2 rounds - Willie, Levi, Steinbach, Whitworth, Zeitler
2. They used to have a good grasp of grabbing decent value in the free agent market.

Those 2 things alone have led to the poor line quality over the last 5 years. Ced, Fisher and Price killed this line. Imagine if they all had panned out.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 12:28 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The most important things that I take from this post:

1.  They USED to be automatic when they drafted linemen in the top 2 rounds - Willie, Levi, Steinbach, Whitworth, Zeitler
2.  They used to have a good grasp of grabbing decent value in the free agent market.

Those 2 things alone have led to the poor line quality over the last 5 years.  Ced, Fisher and Price killed this line.  Imagine if they all had panned out.

I know it doesn't make any difference on the field, but this was my main point.

It is not that Mike Brown does not value the O-line or try to fix it.  It is just that his moves have mostly failed recently.

[higgy100]

If MB is not qualified nor defer to the right people to make these choices then he clearly does not value the OL or try to fix it properly. You can paint an exterior of a house with a brush or with a spray gun and decide which is better quality, more timely. more economical and more feasible. I know which way I'm going.

A huge part of success is knowing, learning, realizing and deferring. Not everyone knows what the definition of insanity is.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Bottom line, need to draft better again. Happy about this last Draft with Carman, D'ante and Hill.

Hope these guys pan out, from what I saw of them in the Preseason I think they might.

Need to see Carman and Trey Hill out there Sunday with XSF banged up and Hopkins struggling mightily.

Pollack helps but he was also here when we picked Price who is a bust and now someone else's problem.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-23-2021, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know it doesn't make any difference on the field, but this was my main point.

It is not that Mike Brown does not value the O-line or try to fix it.  It is just that his moves have mostly failed recently.

I still feel like he doesn't value the OG and C positions enough.  Sure, they draft one high when they get painted into a corner, but they traditionally let those guys leave without paying them and it really cripples the team.

[Joelist]

This last draft was hopeful simply because they did something they had needed to do for a while - they triple dipped on both OL and DL and restocked both cupboards. And on OL the depth before that was of poor quality and as we saw last season the lack of DL depth got exposed. This year both lines have depth that is either a veteran who has shown ability in the past or a promising prospect.

[XenoMorph]

(09-23-2021, 02:24 PM)Joelist Wrote: This last draft was hopeful simply because they did something they had needed to do for a while - they triple dipped on both OL and DL and restocked both cupboards. And on OL the depth before that was of poor quality and as we saw last season the lack of DL depth got exposed. This year both lines have depth that is either a veteran who has shown ability in the past or a promising prospect.

hopefully they picked wisely cause thats a heavy investment.

[Joelist]

(09-23-2021, 02:25 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: hopefully they picked wisely cause thats a heavy investment.

That's always the "if" factor for every team. I liked that the draft strategy was changed to start restocking the lines. In all likelihood I would do the same or similar next year too - at least 2 each DL and OL. 

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 01:34 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I still feel like he doesn't value the OG and C positions enough.  Sure, they draft one high when they get painted into a corner, but they traditionally let those guys leave without paying them and it really cripples the team.

I would say that over the last 30 years we have only had 5 top quality interior linemen that were worth re-signing. (Braham, Steinbach, Williams, Boling, Zeitler).  The only two we let walk were overpaid in free agency.  It would have been a huge mistake to pay Steinbach more than the Browns did.  I wish we had kept Zeitler, but he did not play up to the contract he got either.

So basically one interior lineman (Zeitler) in 30 years that we did not pay to keep.  Not exactly a pattern.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-23-2021, 02:24 PM)Joelist Wrote: This last draft was hopeful simply because they did something they had needed to do for a while - they triple dipped on both OL and DL and restocked both cupboards. And on OL the depth before that was of poor quality and as we saw last season the lack of DL depth got exposed. This year both lines have depth that is either a veteran who has shown ability in the past or a promising prospect.

(09-23-2021, 02:28 PM)Joelist Wrote: That's always the "if" factor for every team. I liked that the draft strategy was changed to start restocking the lines. In all likelihood I would do the same or similar next year too - at least 2 each DL and OL. 

Yes, keep investing in the trenches. This is what can get us back in contention.

[Shake n Blake]

I've never disagreed with anything listed here. My issue is that when it was crystal clear that the line was a massive issue, we did little to nothing in free agency to solve the issue.

Generally speaking, when a good franchise recognizes a massive issue on the line, they'll use every resource to fix it. You can't rely on a 2nd round pick and one trade in 6 years. It's telling that Reiff is - by a good margin - the best free agent lineman we've signed during the last 6 years of this problem.

THAT is why I can't take seriously any argument that Mike Brown takes it seriously. Maybe this is evidence that he takes it seriously in his mind, but in reality it's not enough. If he thinks it is, that's just more evidence of his ineptitude.

Put simply, the draft isn't the only place to fix problems, especially ones as massive as this, and one trade and one semi-decent signing in 6 years is all he has done outside of the draft, so...yeah.

[Shake n Blake]

As far as our scouting being an issue, it might be...but I'm more inclined to say the problem has been inept coaches having too much input on who we take. Remember, PA is the one who banged the table for Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine.

Who picked Price? Who wanted Jordan? Idk about those two, but I wouldn't rule out our coaches. Our setup seems to give coaches a lot of say on who we pick, so I wouldn't automatically point fingers at the scouts.

[XenoMorph]

(09-23-2021, 02:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As far as our scouting being an issue, it might be...but I'm more inclined to say the problem has been inept coaches having too much input on who we take. Remember, PA is the one who banged the table for Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine.

Who picked Price? Who wanted Jordan? Idk about those two, but I wouldn't rule out our coaches. Our setup seems to give coaches a lot of say on who we pick, so I wouldn't automatically point fingers at the scouts.

Coaches have a decent amount in input i believe as our Drafts really started to fall off when we started lossing our quality coordinators to other teams.

While we have seen the FO make efforts to bring in folks... They recently havent worked out the best. MB isnt scouting players. hes listening to peoples advice. someone is giving him bad advice.

[BengalChris]

All I can tell from all of this is what I already knew. The Bengals use to draft better offensive linemen than they have recently.

The answer, of course, is to draft better by having better evaluations of the players coming in. Even Jonah Williams hasn't been as advertised.

The OL was an issue 4 years ago. It still is today with different players.

[bengals67]

Interesting history lesson and informative. I stand corrected on several points.

But the present bottom line is that the o line stunk last year, Burrow had what could have been a career ending injury because of the awful line, and Bengal management utterly failed to address this glaring problem.

Anyone with half a brain knew that signing one above average aging tackle was not nearly enough- particularly given their decision to take a WR instead of an o lineman in first round of draft.

Chase is a great player in the making. But Taking Chase would have been much more justified if the Bengals had added three above average free agent o lineman not 1.

Praying that Burrow survives this Sunday.