(10-11-2021, 07:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: I agree to an extent. It's fair to criticize play calling in critical situations, like the draw to Perrine at the end of regulation, but there are just not a lot of plays that I can point to in this one where the DC beat Zac with a great play call. 4 dropped balls, 2 forced Int's, failing a sneak on 3rd and inches, and guys getting beat in one on one pass pro reps aren't on ZT.
Some of the arguments presented in regards to play calling philosophy are chicken and egg at best. More screens have been brought up, but we completed 2 of 2 screen passes for a total of 5 yards against GB. Are we not running more screens simply because we suck at running screens?
If we're being fair; we might understand that we've won 2 games this year because Zac out coached the opposition.
In the gameday thread yesterday "L know" with in a matter of minutes folks were calling Zac incompetent for not kicking the FG on 4th down and then folks were calling him incompetent for settling for a FG on 4th down. There was about 3 yards difference between the 2 situations.
(10-11-2021, 07:53 PM)jason Wrote: Again.... Part of me admires that kind of determination, but you won't see a crafty veteran QB do that in that situation. I thought he'd learned his lesson last year when Fletcher Cox or whoever blew him up in the chest. Defenders at this level puncture lungs, break ribs, and hand out head injuries. He can't do that in the first half with the game not on the line. Hopefully someone got on his ass about it after the fact.
For what it's worth... Looked a lot like a helmet to helmet personal foul from my couch.
I admire it too, but he has to pick his spots. Can’t play like that all the time in the NFL. If it’s the 4th quarter with the game on the line, then sure. Even then it makes you hold your breath.
(10-11-2021, 07:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wish he would have acted a little more like a statue on the play he tried to dive head first for a 1st down…
There is this nugget that popped into my head watching him run there. Click on 42 seconds in.
I 100% believe that the offensive woes can mostly be put on Taylor. I gave him a couple of years to grow and change.the team, but he's only shown disappointment. It would be different if I thought his play calling was on point, but there was a lack of player skill. I see the skill there in all but one part of our team and Taylor can't seem to plan around it. Another thing is I'm wondering how long it will be before people start saying that Chase has carried Burrow in college and the NFL. I don't think that's true, but I'm sure it will eventually be said.
Taylor could potentially be a pretty good HC if he would just get out of the play calling business and leave that to a seasoned OC who knows how to get the most out of the players they have.. He seems to have most of the players willing to go to war with him, but that will only go so far if he keeps making stupid calls. The players will want to leave in free agency if he keeps it up.
In the immortal words of my old man, "Wait'll you get to be my age!"
Chicago sounds rough to the maker of verse, but the one comfort we have is Cincinnati sounds worse. ~Oliver Wendal Holmes Sr.
If Joe Burrow ever gets injured to badly to play football again he could make a pretty good living doing acne medication sales pitches.. he looks like any time now he's going to have a major acne outbreak with big festering zits all over his face..
In the immortal words of my old man, "Wait'll you get to be my age!"
Chicago sounds rough to the maker of verse, but the one comfort we have is Cincinnati sounds worse. ~Oliver Wendal Holmes Sr.
(10-11-2021, 08:03 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I 100% believe that the offensive woes can mostly be put on Taylor. I gave him a couple of years to grow and change.the team, but he's only shown disappointment. It would be different if I thought his play calling was on point, but there was a lack of player skill. I see the skill there in all but one part of our team and Taylor can't seem to plan around it. Another thing is I'm wondering how long it will be before people start saying that Chase has carried Burrow in college and the NFL. I don't think that's true, but I'm sure it will eventually be said.
I don't think it's true either, but having Justin Jefferson, Ja'Marr Chase, and CEH at his disposal certainly played a role in the greatest QB season in NCAA history. Burrow held his own as a rookie on a terrible team too.
(10-11-2021, 03:54 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The ONE instance Joe Burrow had lots of time to throw he hit Ja’Marr Chase for a touchdown.
on a play that should have been knocked away. That was a TD because of a stupid decision by a DB that wanted to look like an NBA player blocking a shot and "swatting it away". If he dives with an extended arm like an outfielder trying to catch a ball, it gets easily knocked away or possibly intercepted because the DB did everything right up to that point and the throw was under thrown and bit late. More lucky than good on Burrow's part on that one.
And massive kudos to Chase on that play. One of my biggest complaints about Cincinnati WRs for YEARS is that they run their routes and then stand there or barely float the area while the QB runs for his life. That's where idiots would say stuff like "Dalton needs to make a play". Chase flat out took off. I'm glad to see he was rewarded for his effort and I hope the other receivers learn from that.
Back on topic . . . any answer that doesn't lead with O-line is probably by someone that just watches the ball from snap to whistle. People saying play calling have valid points, but those points become less valid with better o-line play . . . That said, better play calling isn't going to improve this o-line. They're better than last year but not much.
It has been a problem for a long time and their attempts to fix the o-line have been pretty poor
2015 1st Ogbuehi - bust - Seahawk
2015 2nd Fisher - out of football
2016 5th Westerman - out of football
2017 5th Dielman - out of football
2018 1st Price - bust - NYGiant
2018 7th Taylor - out of football
2019 1st Williams - played well recently but still has missed more than he's played
2019 4th Jordan - currently FA
2021 2nd Carman - jury still out
2021 4th Smith - yet to be active
2021 6th Hill - played ST the last three games
How about outside free agency?
2017 - Andre Smith
2018 - Hart
2018 - Andre Smith - in season waiver wire pickup
2020 - XSF
2020 - Spain - in season waiver wire pick up
2021 - Rieff
This is why I was team o-line early and often. I love watching Chase play, but the biggest problem area on this team has been o-line for a long time and they still lightly dusted the position.
With the personnel we have, this offense should be able to implement the K-Gun (formation + 2-minute drill) without any issue. It would keep opposing defenses on their heels because of the speed of this up-tempo offense.
I put a lot of it on Zac calling the plays. With the skill players on this roster, there aren't many if any defenses that should be able to cover all 3 of Higgins, Boyd, and Chase at the same time. One of those guys if not more have to be open on every play, and the run game should be loosening up, too. I get that we don't have some great o-line, but it still doesn't explain everything.
Teams are going to have to decide who to prioritize against this offense and when they do, this staff needs to take advantage of the guys that aren't getting the attention. Sometimes it's almost like the defenses know exactly what's coming.
Also, this team is absolute trash when it comes to converting 3rd downs, even when it's short. This must change.
Oddly, many of our big plays seem to come from Burrow calling audibles and not from plays Taylor calls. A few of them are broken plays like the Chase bomb on Sunday.
(10-11-2021, 07:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If we're being fair; we might understand that we've won 2 games this year because Zac out coached the opposition.
In the gameday thread yesterday "L know" with in a matter of minutes folks were calling Zac incompetent for not kicking the FG on 4th down and then folks were calling him incompetent for settling for a FG on 4th down. There was about 3 yards difference between the 2 situations.
Oftentimes, fans blame coaches because it's a lot easier to think a new coach can come in and fix everything than to think the entire roster needs an overhaul.
Everyone thought Lou was a garbage DC until this year. They dropped a ton of money on defensive FA's the past couple of off-seasons because the talent wasn't there.
They've been trying to build the offense in the draft, but that's a longer learning curve than when you're bringing in veterans. Honestly, they are still a few pieces away.
(10-11-2021, 10:33 PM)Whatever Wrote: Oftentimes, fans blame coaches because it's a lot easier to think a new coach can come in and fix everything than to think the entire roster needs an overhaul.
Everyone thought Lou was a garbage DC until this year. They dropped a ton of money on defensive FA's the past couple of off-seasons because the talent wasn't there.
They've been trying to build the offense in the draft, but that's a longer learning curve than when you're bringing in veterans. Honestly, they are still a few pieces away.
I’d say a couple. Center and RG. Pretty solid everywhere else. Maybe a better #2 TE. But that’s more of a luxury, and not necessarily something that’s holding us back.
(10-11-2021, 07:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: Lots of teams kill with these route concepts. Problem is, our WR corps is very slow by NFL standards and can't succeed with them.
Kind of my point. We need to do back shoulder throws, curls, slants, middle screens. Play to our strengths. We just don't. Higgins Boyd and Chase are good route runners. Chase is decently fast.
Why we were throwing to Sample is beyond me. Uz is much, much better. Even a RB would be for these short routes.
I don't get why coaches do a bunch formation with no WRs out wide to try to get one or two yards. It telegraphs what you are doing. That gets stuffed a lot. I'd rather spread the D out and make them guess if I'm passing for four yards, going deep (which I've not seen out of Taylor), or handing to the RB. Good OC's do what the D is not expecting at least half the time. A guessing D is a vulnerable D.
To each his own... unless you belong to a political party...
Our route concepts are super vanilla which is a large part of why our WRs seem to not get separation. Other teams use scheme to cause separation - like the Colts did tonight a lot.
(10-11-2021, 09:57 PM)samhain Wrote: Oddly, many of our big plays seem to come from Burrow calling audibles and not from plays Taylor calls.
The options on audibles are called by the coach.
Burrow does not have the authority to just change the gameplan to whatever he wants. After a play is sent in by the coach Joe has limited options to audible into another play based on what the defense shows him.
(10-11-2021, 12:03 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I’m fine with them throwing more; I don’t want them running a 50/50 split. I just think they threw a little too often, but maybe a better complaint is situational calls. I 100% agree with you that the 3rd and 5 run call was dubious at best. Taylor is strange, I love his 4th down calls but some of his situational calls don’t sit well with me.
I do not understand this 50-50 split number. That is a super heavy run offense in this league.
I just don't see how we can score enough to keep up with Baltimore, Bills, Chargers, Browns, and KC. The offense has so much potential, and I've liked what I've seen from the "system". I've liked a lot of the plays that have been drawn up, and the system allows for completions and moving the ball. It's the playcalling that is off. Bad timing, not sticking with what is working (Burrow under center, use of TE), and an overall lack of identity.
ZT should be forced to turn playcalling over next offseason or be fired. We still won't need a full overhaul on offense, I actually like most of the coaches, but we will need a HC and OC.
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