Bengals - Civil War

[MileHighGrowler]

(10-28-2021, 02:19 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Right? The recency bias is real. 

That 2015 defense was ELITE. I think the game itself would be epic but I would honestly maybe lean toward the 2015 team winning. They were just such a solid damn team, both offensively and defensively. 

The real question is who would win - the 2005 or 2015 team?

I'd go 2015 Bengals based on their defense.  2015 was a better overall balanced team.  I think had Palmer not been taken out, the Bengals would have won the SB in 2005, but I don't think that team was actually better than 2015, as much fun as that season was to watch. 

For 2021 vs 2015, there are a lot of biases at play.  We're coming off a hot win, winning record, early in the year, and comparing to a team that left us heartbroken (I remembering jumping off the couch in disbelief that the Bengals had actually finally won a playoff game, only to sink back down in absolute denial about what happened.  I just sat there stunned for about 30 minutes until I was roused by a drunk driver hitting a light pole outside the house).  Andy didn't leave Cincy with a huge fan following, and he hasn't looked great since he did leave, but that team played pretty cool-headed all season.  

At this point in the year, I'd have to say 2015 only because we know how we did, and 2021 is still so early.  I'm hoping in a few months we laugh about this because 2021 would have eaten 2015 for lunch, but I'm not quite ready to make that statement yet. 

[*bfine32*]

I pick the team that had the better punter..

[WeezyBengal]

(10-28-2021, 02:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I pick the team that had the better punter..

That would be 2015. KH is washed now. 

[TecmoBengals]

(10-28-2021, 02:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: '15 Andy ranked higher (2nd) in passer rating than '21 Burrow (5th).

Dalton ranking 2nd and Burrow 5th for this category puts them in relatively the same tier of success. Let's examine other stats by rank among their QB peers.

Passing Yards 
Dalton (22)
Burrow (6)

TDs
Dalton (14)
Burrow (5)

Completion % 
Dalton (8)
Burrow (9)

QBR
Dalton (3)
Burrow (12)

Obviously, there are many variables to consider when determining which QB has the better season; we know there are other stats for comparing the two players. '15 was arguably Dalton's best season. We'll have to identify '21 as Burrow's best season since his career doesn't even comprise two full seasons. It isn't surprising Dalton had a great '15 and Burrow is having a good '21. A '15 v '21 team debate probably doesn't happen if there isn't quality QB play. We have the perspective of hindsight to know Dalton couldn't get it done in the playoffs for Cincinnati (Edit: for the longevity of his entire Bengals career). Dalton cannot be completely accountable for this, but the outcome doesn't change: Dalton never won in the playoffs for the Bengals. Joe still has the potential to help the franchise win. I'll maintain that the most important position player on the field, the QB, is what will distinguish '21 from '15. Burrow will prove to be better than Dalton this year and for his entire Bengals career.

Also, I really like intangibles such as leadership and moxie. 

For discourse on leadership, the Bengals, and QBs, I recommend: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-offense-is-starting-to-take-on-Burrow-s-personality

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

The one with Burrow.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Burrow is #1 in the league vs the blitz.

Dalton was a dumpster fire.

That is the ballgame right there.

[*jason*]

Do we really wanna think about Vontaze on the same field with Joe Burrow? I don't...

[Shake n Blake]

I like this team slightly better, but saying it wouldn't be close is asinine.

That team started 10-2 with Dalton, went 5-1 in the division, and beat teams like the Seahawks, Chiefs and Ravens (twice).

Say what you will about Andy, but he played every bit as good then as Burrow is now, and the team was stacked on both sides.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-28-2021, 03:03 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Dalton ranking 2nd and Burrow 5th for this category puts them in relatively the same tier of success. Let's examine other stats by rank among their QB peers.

Passing Yards 
Dalton (22)
Burrow (6)

TDs
Dalton (14)
Burrow (5)

Completion % 
Dalton (8)
Burrow (9)

QBR
Dalton (3)
Burrow (12)

Obviously, there are many variables to consider when determining which QB has the better season; we know there are other stats for comparing the two players. '15 was arguably Dalton's best season. We'll have to identify '21 as Burrow's best season since his career doesn't even comprise two full seasons. It isn't surprising Dalton had a great '15 and Burrow is having a good '21. A '15 v '21 team debate probably doesn't happen if there isn't quality QB play. We have the perspective of hindsight to know Dalton couldn't get it done in the playoffs for Cincinnati (Edit: for the longevity of his entire Bengals career). Dalton cannot be completely accountable for this, but the outcome doesn't change: Dalton never won in the playoffs for the Bengals. Joe still has the potential to help the franchise win. I'll maintain that the most important position player on the field, the QB, is what will distinguish '21 from '15. Burrow will prove to be better than Dalton this year and for his entire Bengals career.

Also, I really like intangibles such as leadership and moxie. 

For discourse on leadership, the Bengals, and QBs, I recommend: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-offense-is-starting-to-take-on-Burrow-s-personality

I like 2021 Burrow better than 2015 Dalton, but you also have to consider that Burrow has thrown more picks in 7 games than Dalton threw in 13.

Also, these rankings are skewed because Dalton didn't play a full season.

Dalton was on pace for 4200 yards and 33 TDs heading into the game he got injured.

[KillerGoose]

(10-28-2021, 11:19 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Offense

QB - Burrow > Dalton
WR1 - Chase = AJ
WR2 - Tee = Jones
WR3 - Boyd > Sanu
RB - Mixon > Hill
TE - Eifert > Uzomah
LT - Whit > Jonah
LG - Spain > Boling
C - Hopkins > Bodine
RG - Zeitler > Carman
RT - Smith = Reiff

Defense

DE - Hendrickson > Dunlap
DT - Geno > Ogunjobi
DT - Reader > Peko
DE - Hubbard = Johnson
LB - Burfict = Wilson
LB - Pratt = Maualuga
LB - ADG > Hawk
CB - Awuzie = Pacman
CB - Waynes = Kirkpatrick
CB - Hilton > Dennard
FS - Bates = Nelson
SS - Bell > Iloka

Special Teams

K - McPherson > Nugent
KR - Wilson = Tate
PR - Pacman > Phillips

Most of this is fair, though 2015 Dalton was very good. Burrow is better this season, but not by a huge margin. Trey Hendrickson isn’t playing better than 2015 Dunlap. He finished with 55 total tackles, 16 TFL, 13.5 sacks and 34 QB hits (probably around 45-50 pressures would be my guess). Also, 2015 Reggie Nelson finished with 8 interceptions, he led the league. I wouldn’t say Bates is playing better than him, either.

That 2015 team was really, really good. I’m surprised so many believe that this team would just blow them out.

[leonardfan40]

(10-28-2021, 03:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Most of this is fair, though 2015 Dalton was very good. Burrow is better this season, but not by a huge margin. Trey Hendrickson isn’t playing better than 2015 Dunlap. He finished with 55 total tackles, 16 TFL, 13.5 sacks and 34 QB hits (probably around 45-50 pressures would be my guess). Also, 2015 Reggie Nelson finished with 8 interceptions, he lead the league. I wouldn’t say Bates is playing better than him, either.

That 2015 team was really, really good. I’m surprised so many believe that this team would just blow them out.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of the people praising 2021 team as way better were trashing this team a few weeks ago lol some people have no middle ground

[TecmoBengals]

(10-28-2021, 03:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I like 2021 Burrow better than 2015 Dalton, but you also have to consider that Burrow has thrown more picks in 7 games than Dalton threw in 13.

Also, these rankings are skewed because Dalton didn't play a full season.

Dalton was on pace for 4200 yards and 33 TDs heading into the game he got injured.

Yeah, all fair points when looking at the stats of both players. Oof, Burrow's INT numbers wouldn't be as glaring without the three picks in a row. Let's hope that was a young player-learning curve, lack of preseason reps, and other intricate stuff reserved for the NFL coaches and players to understand type of moment rather than Joe just completely being a bad NFL QB (which I don't think anyone of us believe him to be just bad).

Overall, when comparing Dalton and Burrow I don't think we can narrow in on an isolated stat. The entirety of their stats, their surrounding talent, coaching decisions, strength of schedule, and so on and so on all matter. It can become quite a complex debate. There are endless variables when comparing the two squads. My hot take to the thread is to process my thoughts about the two teams based on which QB I want, I'm going Burrow and think '21 Bengals beat '15 Bengals.

Now, if we're expanding the scope of the Civil War, give me the '88 - '89 Bengals.

That might be a fun thread one day. NCAA basketball tourney style of best single season Bengals teams.

[hollodero]

(10-28-2021, 03:48 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Yeah, all fair points when looking at the stats of both players. Oof, Burrow's INT numbers wouldn't be as glaring without the three picks in a row. Let's hope that was a young player-learning curve, lack of preseason reps, and other intricate stuff reserved for the NFL coaches and players to understand type of moment rather than Joe just completely being a bad NFL QB (which I don't think anyone of us believe him to be just bad).

Not bad, just still rather inexperienced. That is to be expected, Burrow's in his second year and already back from a grim injury, of course he makes some mistakes still, some errors in judgement, and is a little over-confident at times maybe. I'm not calling him a bad QB when stating that 2015 Dalton is probably the more reliable QB option that might give the 2015 team the edge over the current team.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-28-2021, 03:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Most of this is fair, though 2015 Dalton was very good. Burrow is better this season, but not by a huge margin. Trey Hendrickson isn’t playing better than 2015 Dunlap. He finished with 55 total tackles, 16 TFL, 13.5 sacks and 34 QB hits (probably around 45-50 pressures would be my guess). Also, 2015 Reggie Nelson finished with 8 interceptions, he lead the league. I wouldn’t say Bates is playing better than him, either.

That 2015 team was really, really good. I’m surprised so many believe that this team would just blow them out.

I'd also say that Hopkins isn't better than Bodine. Not this year anyways.

They're both bad.

[Bilbo Saggins]

The 2015 team had a couple of warts, but was more complete and had more elite star power than this team. 

Bodine and Hawk were not exactly quality starters. Maualuga had a rebound year that year but was more adequate than good. Green, Atkins, Whitworth, Dunlap, Burfict, and Eifert in their primes were all elite, blue chip players. 

I'd argue that a lot of the young guys on this roster have yet to hit hit their peaks as pros. Burrow, Chase, Wilson, etc. should get better with more seasoning. 

I have to go with 2015.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-28-2021, 03:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Most of this is fair, though 2015 Dalton was very good. Burrow is better this season, but not by a huge margin. Trey Hendrickson isn’t playing better than 2015 Dunlap. He finished with 55 total tackles, 16 TFL, 13.5 sacks and 34 QB hits (probably around 45-50 pressures would be my guess). Also, 2015 Reggie Nelson finished with 8 interceptions, he led the league. I wouldn’t say Bates is playing better than him, either.

That 2015 team was really, really good. I’m surprised so many believe that this team would just blow them out.

If it's a 1pm regular season game, I'd take the 2015 team.
If it's prime time, I'd take this team. Probably in a playoff game, too.

That's why I didn't even vote.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-28-2021, 03:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Most of this is fair, though 2015 Dalton was very good. Burrow is better this season, but not by a huge margin. Trey Hendrickson isn’t playing better than 2015 Dunlap. He finished with 55 total tackles, 16 TFL, 13.5 sacks and 34 QB hits (probably around 45-50 pressures would be my guess). Also, 2015 Reggie Nelson finished with 8 interceptions, he led the league. I wouldn’t say Bates is playing better than him, either.

That 2015 team was really, really good. I’m surprised so many believe that this team would just blow them out.

A couple of them were really tough. I wouldn’t argue too much with changing Nelson to beating this year’s version of Bates, but I just thought it was close enough overall to call a draw. Bates still has 10 games to start putting up some better numbers, too. Same with Hendrickson and Dunlap. Even if you change those 2 I’m still going with 2021 though. The team’s are close enough across the board (elite WR, great defense, etc) that I’m going with the one with the better QB. I just don’t see Burrow completely laying an egg like Dalton did so many times.

I’m not saying it isn’t close, or “forgetting” how good that 2015 squad was, I just like this year’s team slightly better. We used to hear a lot about how almost no one outside of maybe a few guys (Burfict, Marvin Jones, etc) ever stepped up in the playoffs during that era. Well, this current team is made up of a lot of players that came from teams that actually did win some postseason games (Reader, Bell, Spain, Reiff, Waynes, Awuzie, etc).

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-28-2021, 10:32 AM)Cicero Wrote: 2021. Not even close. Marvin’s team might play well for a bit but inevitably collapse as soon as something bad happens. His teams were never mentally tough.

Right now I would say it is close but I don't think it will be by season's end...

Yeah, this team has shown that no quit attitude, not just Burrow, but the Defense don't quit. 

They seem to want to just own the game and control the Offense they are going against. The moment the Offense thinks they 
got something going this Defense slaps a ball down or sacks the QB or gets an interception what have you. For every hit they 
take they give one back, it is a fight out there for any Offense they face.

What is nice is the Offense is starting to come around too and could be better than that 2015 Offense soon.

Loved Reggie the Predator that year though man. That dude will always be one of my favorite Bengals.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-28-2021, 11:05 AM)ezekiel23 Wrote: I voted 2021 Bengals primarily because of Joe Burrow  versus Andy Dalton.When the heat is on,and the game is on the line,I’ll take Burrow over Dalton any day.

^This^

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-28-2021, 07:03 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: ^This^

Plus Burrow seems to play even better than normal under the bright lights. He might have it rough early like he did in the 
Championship game in college and for much of this year but he just fights back even more it seems when this happens.

Like say our only primetime game this season against the Jags and this Ravens game which should of been primetime.

Difference is with the Ravens game was we were in control through out and were always in it even when the Ravens were
up that one time. Burrow is the main reason I expect us to get the Playoff win monkey off our back this year. I think we get
to the playoffs mostly cause of the Defense but Burrow gets us over the hump.