Elephant in the Room

[Shake n Blake]

(11-07-2021, 08:29 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: Yeah I'd agree. Obviously right now nobody can sign him off as the guy for the next 15 years... we drafted him in the hope he's the messiah, and if that's the case then he'll be our guy for 15 years. We definitely can't sit here waiting for 15 years for him to be great for sure. He's gotta come up with the goods in the early years too.

So far I think he's still a very promising QB for us. I think he could be a great one. But it's possible he won't too, just too early to tell. The question I guess we need to ask is where does he fit when you compare him in Year 2, to Dalton/Palmer in Year 2? If he's going to be the guy, he's going to have to be a lot better than both of those two. 

I'll have to wait and see where Burrow settles in once this weeks stats are tallied, but I'd say he's having a slightly (yes, slightly) better season than Dalton's year 2, but it's not going to live up to Palmer's year 2...which was epic.

(11-07-2021, 09:05 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: well better compare is to Palmer.. he was #1 pick also.. Dalton was a 2nd round pick, I believe 5th QB taken in draft and really his performance overall at his draft level probably was right there compared to  Newtons as #1 pick..   so Burrow really does need to live up to the #1 pick overall.. 

For the most part I agree. Dalton had lower expectations due to where he was drafted.

He had quite a year in 2012 though.

7th in passing TDs
31 TDs overall (27 passing, 4 rushing)
13th in passer rating among 40+ qualifiers
8th most INTs (Burrow is probably #1 now)

[*michaelsean*]

His pick 6 was just a bad throw. Jesus I don’t know what people expect.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-07-2021, 09:34 PM)Tony Wrote: How about interceptions?

What about them? I asked what your metric is. If that’s your sole metric then he’s not a top ten QB, but since that would be silly I’ll assume it’s not.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-07-2021, 09:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wasn’t on the old board, but was there this this much mass hysteria when Dalton was throwing a ton of picks (20) in 2013?

no, since he had helped turned us around to playoff team after two seasons plus he had superseded our expectations as 5th QB taken in draft.. like it or not Burrow has way more expectations to hit with his consensus #1 pick.. people don't want Andy Dalton 2.0  (which is not bad thing) but they expect  the #1 pick in draft and  franchise QB to lead us to a higher level on a short period of time and not be on pace to throw more picks than Andy per game...

[Tony]

(11-07-2021, 09:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: His pick 6 was just a bad throw. Jesus I don’t know what people expect.

We definitely aren't expecting him to throw 100 yard pick 6s or costly 4th quarter and over time picks. It's happening though. It's ok to criticize him, he's not perfect..Some of you guys have set the bar real low for what to expect I guess..

[Frank Booth]

(11-07-2021, 09:39 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: no, since he had helped turned us around to playoff team after two seasons plus he had superseded our expectations as 5th QB taken in draft.. like it or not Burrow has way more expectations to hit with his consensus #1 pick.. people don't want Andy Dalton 2.0  (which is not bad thing) but they expect  the #1 pick in draft and  franchise QB to lead us to a higher level on a short period of time and not be on pace to throw more picks than Andy per game...

We knew who Andy Dalton was. Before 2013, he was really pedestrian.

2013 comes along, and although he threw 20 ints, he also threw 33 touchdowns and a crap ton of yards. Something we thought he didn’t have in him.

Btw the bengals went 11-5 that season and 8-0 at home

I’m talking regular season btw

[Fan_in_Kettering]

I think we are still spoiled by Marvin Lewis in his first three years. Marvin’s first three teams went 8-8, 8-8, and 11-5, making the playoffs in 2005 and nearly making the playoffs in 2004. Zac Taylor isn’t even close to this.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-07-2021, 09:38 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What about them?  I asked what your metric is. If that’s your sole metric then he’s not a top ten QB, but since that would be silly I’ll assume it’s not.

I think the measure for Burrow is higher since where is was drafted and the expectation with his unbelievable senior year.. the measure to me is more about when his Ints happen than anything.. not like they are late game desperations or end of half ones.. many of his Ints have been crucial for sure.. today is no different, we have struggled in 1st quarter, he has a solod 1st drive and man that Int for TD just keep us behind the 8 bowl all day it seemed,.. totally took crowd out of game..

[Joelist]

Most of the INTs are bad decisions. So are more than half the sacks - he holds the ball too long and/or does not move in the pocket. He is actually doing the opposite of hearing ghost rushers in the pocket - he is taking too long to do his progressions (if he is doing them) instead of using quick throws to outlet receivers (like backs). Now the backs and TEs are not helping him by whiffing on their blocks (4 times just today) or dropping the pass like Perine likes to do. And the receivers having skillet hands is also no help. But a player drafted #1OA on the basis of his football IQ and ability to read defenses and process information back there quickly and make good decisions needs to do those things - right now he is not.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-07-2021, 09:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: When we were headed to the playoffs for a 3rd straight year to open his era? I can't remember. 

So a non-answer then? Right. If INT’s are your only metric for “Dalton being better than Burrow” then you must have a short memory. Because Dalton threw 20 in the only season where he cracked 30 TD’s - -and he was in the mid-high teens a couple other times.

[Murdock2420]

(11-07-2021, 09:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wasn’t on the old board, but was there this this much mass hysteria when Dalton was throwing a ton of picks (20) in 2013?

Dalton didn't get this much heat as others have said since he was a 2nd rounder and expectations weren't high with the lockout that year so he surprised everyone. 

That being said, Palmer certainly got hammered for his picks, due to being the #1 pick and the expectation after sitting for a year that he would elevate the 8-8 team to the Super Bowl. 

Fair or not, higher draft spot, higher expectations. 

[*michaelsean*]

(11-07-2021, 09:41 PM)Tony Wrote: We definitely aren't expecting him to throw 100 yard pick 6s or costly 4th quarter and over time picks. It's happening though. It's ok to criticize him, he's not perfect..Some of you guys have set the bar real low for what to expect I guess..

You can criticize him, but to expect Rodgers in his 18th or 19th game is unrealistic. Except for some freaks, it takes a while. Especially when you have a pretty bad interior line. I’m confident he will spend his whole offseason fixing wherever he’s weak. Remember when he couldn’t throw a deep ball last year?

[Essex Johnson]

(11-07-2021, 09:49 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So a non-answer then? Right. If INT’s are your only metric for “Dalton being better than Burrow” then you must have a short memory. Because Dalton threw 20 in the only season where he cracked 30 TD’s - -and he was in the mid-high teens a couple other times.

stop deflecting the issue.. it is not about Dalton.. it is about Burrow.. as you stated you were not on here in 2013.. but i assume you watched the Bengals in 2013, there was less worry on Dalton since he won games in the 4th quarter and had taken us to playoffs  his first two seasons and overachieved by his draft pick status.. Burrow is totally different.. are you telling me that you are not concerned about what you are seeing of late from Burrow as #1 pick?

[Frank Booth]

(11-07-2021, 09:50 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Dalton didn't get this much heat as others have said since he was a 2nd rounder and expectations weren't high with the lockout that year so he surprised everyone. 

That being said, Palmer certainly got hammered for his picks, due to being the #1 pick and the expectation after sitting for a year that he would elevate the 8-8 team to the Super Bowl. 

Fair or not, higher draft spot, higher expectations. 

Good post. I bet Nicomo doesn’t even remember pick 6 palmer

[Frank Booth]

(11-07-2021, 09:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: stop deflecting the issue.. it is not about Dalton.. it is about Burrow.. as you stated you were not on here in 2013.. but i assume you watched the Bengals in 2013, there was less worry on Dalton since he won games in the 4th quarter and had taken us to playoffs  his first two seasons and overachieved by his draft pick status.. Burrow is totally different.. are you telling me that you are not concerned about what you are seeing of late from Burrow as #1 pick?

The boy loves to bring up Dalton whenever he can

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-07-2021, 09:39 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: no, since he had helped turned us around to playoff team after two seasons plus he had superseded our expectations as 5th QB taken in draft.. like it or not Burrow has way more expectations to hit with his consensus #1 pick.. people don't want Andy Dalton 2.0  (which is not bad thing) but they expect  the #1 pick in draft and  franchise QB to lead us to a higher level on a short period of time and not be on pace to throw more picks than Andy per game...

Throwing a lot of picks doesn’t necessarily negate being a franchise QB. Mahomes is doing the same thing this year. Palmer was literally nicknamed “pick 6 Palmer” by the end of his time here, and yet he still went on to be a franchise QB for Arizona.

We should be able criticize Burrow without longing for Andy Dalton.

[Bengalholic]

(11-07-2021, 09:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: His pick 6 was just a bad throw. Jesus I don’t know what people expect.

I can't help but wonder what Chargers fans were saying when Herbert completed 54% of his passes as the Chargers lost 2 in a row. Did they have as many fans as us saying the season's over, our young QB stinks and future of mankind is doomed? 

These young QB's - no matter how talented - are going to have growing pains and make some mistakes. These teams like the Chargers and Bengals are learning how to be competitive and win consistently in this league, while being young teams on the rise.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-07-2021, 09:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Throwing a lot of picks doesn’t necessarily negate being a franchise QB. Mahomes is doing the same thing this year. Palmer was literally nicknamed “pick 6 Palmer” by the end of his time here, and yet he still went on to be a franchise QB for Arizona.

We should be able criticize Burrow without longing for Andy Dalton.

 If that is true on criticize why bring Dalton up ??? which you did...  another deflection this is not about Mahomes.. this about our QB that we watch 100 percent of the time as a whole and his picks are more about  timing.. interesting stat this year.. he has 9 picks when he throws 30 or more passes.. maybe throw less , run more will help him and Bengals..

[*michaelsean*]

(11-07-2021, 09:47 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I think the measure for Burrow is higher since where is was drafted and the expectation with his unbelievable senior year.. the measure to me is more about when his Ints happen than anything.. not like they are late game desperations or end of half ones.. many of his Ints have been crucial for sure.. today is no different, we have struggled in 1st quarter, he has a solod 1st drive and man that Int for TD just keep us behind the 8 bowl all day it seemed,.. totally took crowd out of game..

Ok and he is top ten in most categories 19 games into his career with a crap interior line. People act like he won’t be able to learn from mistakes. Like in his second year he’s become what he will always be.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-07-2021, 09:51 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You can criticize him, but to expect Rodgers in his 18th or 19th game is unrealistic. Except for some freaks, it takes a while. Especially when you have a pretty bad interior line. I’m confident he will spend his whole offseason fixing wherever he’s weak. Remember when he couldn’t throw a deep ball last year?

Rep

Also, those that just keep repeating “but #1 pick” over and over should take a look at Trevor Lawrence’s numbers right now…

Me? I’m thankful we have Burrow. He played like shit today, but I’m not making any more out of it than that. 6 good-great games, 1, mediocre game, and 2 really bad games so far this season. You obviously want to see improvement (and like you pointed out we have), but for a young, semi-inexperienced QB - - coming off a major injury…you have to like a lot of what you see. And be very hopeful for the future.