Issue 3 (For Ohio Residents)

[PDub80]

(11-04-2015, 12:43 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: What's the point of acohol, and tabacco then? 

Nobody said that you need marijuana to relax. Its just used for that purpose too. Just like how pills doctors prescribe. Maybe some people don't want to take a pill and insted just smoke to relax?

Your point that people should reevaluate their life of they're stressed is hilarious too. What if your family is making you stressed? **** them then right? LOL! What about your job being stressful? **** it, and just work at Wendy's. Your perception of reality is way off.

- Dude, XenoMorph literally JUST said that.

- You look at alcohol as a tool to change your mood?
- Smoking a cigarette does not come close to equating to a joint.

- Again, THAT'S my point... Use weed to relax (escape)? Use pills to relax (escape)? Absurd, and at the very least mentally unhealthy way to deal with things. That is metal dependency.

- If your family or job is making you sooooo stressed that you have to turn to ingesting chemically mood altering substances than... YES. F them both. That is NOT healthy for someone.
- You are really being unfair to Wendy's workers with that comment. (Kidding).

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-04-2015, 12:18 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - College kids should not set people's standards... If that's your bench mark and a basis for your argument... whoa boy!

- That's not semantics. You drew an incorrect conclusion.

- Addiction to anything can ruin peoples lives and nearly ANYTHING can be addicting to someone in some way. AGAIN YOU BRING UP ADDICTION. IT'S NOT ABOUT ADDICTION. It's about purpose.

- Functioning people vs. people who don't is a matter of opinion. Lots of people don't function to a high standard because of lots of things. It doesn't factor into what my arguement is: Which none of you have addressed. You keep bringing up addiction and other BS stuff to skirt around the issue of the purpose of weed.

- I didn't say caffeine isn't a drug. It is not comparable to weed. I stated why and you ignored it because it debases your thought process on injecting it into the discussion.

- I didn't say I didn't care if people get wasted in bars. People can abuse lots of things to get high or wasted. Weed does not need to be abused or misused to get high or wasted. AGAIN, YOU IGNORE THIS POINT AND CONTINUE TO BRING UP OTHER THINGS THAT DO REQUIRE ABUSE OR MASS CONSUMPTION TO TRY AND COMPARE. That doesn't work as it relates to the discussion we're having.

- To legalize another substance for people to use to get wasted and be out in public is absurd to me.

- One quick thing..... Your argument with this bullet point is philosophical and contrarian. It skirts the main issue and ignores the purpose of weed for recreational drug use. I'm sure people can take a small amount of cocaine and lots of other drugs, too, and be perfectly fine. Where is the line drawn?

- And, please, this is not about anyone judging anyone else for using drugs. I don't care what you, or even some of my best friend's do. What I care about is the over all direction of our society and country and, to me, a line has to be drawn on what is socially acceptable out in the general public.

Again, why does society as a whole need or even want another way to get F'd up and check out? Is life THAT hard or boring? Or has society become soft and is now reliant on chemical solutions to help their problems?

Why do you feel locking someone up for smoking weed is the better solution?

[PDub80]

(11-04-2015, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Have you ever drank alcohol in your life, even one drink?

^ Nope... Not a drop.

(11-04-2015, 12:54 PM)Au165 Wrote: His comment is a joke. Millions of Americans are technically addicted to caffeine and require it to function properly every day of their life. If they give it up the experience physical withdrawal symptoms of head aches, nausea, and irritability all of which fit the definition of withdrawal symptoms. Yet, he acts like caffeine is not a drug when it does the very thing he scolds people for with alcohol and weed. I would bet that he, or those in his family, use caffeine in some manor often yet because his moral compass says it's okay he laughs at the notion that it is a drug that can have negative effects on people.

- You keep banging the same drum and avoiding the obvious that I have pointed out: Comparing the effects a cup of coffee or soda (common products with caffeine) to a joint is ludicrous and asinine.

I didn't act like it "technically" wasn't a drug at all. I expressly said you were wrong when you tried to pin that on me the first time. What I said was that it is not comparable to weed in terms of effects. How old are you? Do these arguments work with your parents?

[Johnny Cupcakes]

If there wasn't a group of greedy folks at the top that wanted to take the market all for themselves and laugh in the face of free market capitalism, issue 3 would have passed.....guaranteed. Instead, personal liberty will still be denied, the people who use the drug will continue to use it, they'll continue to go to jail for it, and you'll continue to pay to keep them incarcerated, Ohio will be losing out on massive tax revenues, and people that would benefit from it medicinally will still suffer without.

Responsible Ohio had a super irresponsible plan though. Maybe in 5 years you'll see some good legalization legislation come down the pipeline. I'm glad Ohio took the moral high ground of denying legal cartels and monopolies, but unfortunately also took the moral low ground of denying you all of all of the benefits.

[PDub80]

(11-04-2015, 12:59 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Why do you feel locking someone up for smoking weed is the better solution?

I did NOT say lock someone up for smoking weed. That is a completely different argument.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-04-2015, 01:08 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: If there wasn't a group of greedy folks at the top that wanted to take the market all for themselves and laugh in the face of free market capitalism, issue 3 would have passed.....guaranteed. Instead, personal liberty will still be denied, the people who use the drug will continue to use it, they'll continue to go to jail for it, and you'll continue to pay to keep them incarcerated, Ohio will be losing out on massive tax revenues, and people that would benefit from it medicinally will still suffer without.

Responsible Ohio had a super irresponsible plan though. Maybe in 5 years you'll see some good legalization legislation come down the pipeline. I'm glad Ohio took the moral high ground of denying legal cartels and monopolies, but unfortunately also took the moral low ground of denying you all of all of the benefits.

This. I dont understand how so many people are looking past this part of it... 

[treee]

I didn't think I would ever agree with prohibitionists. That should tell you how crappy issue 3 was. Glad it was struck down.

[Au165]

(11-04-2015, 01:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - You keep banging the same drum and avoiding the obvious that I have pointed out: Comparing the effects a cup of coffee or soda (common products with caffeine) to a joint is ludicrous and asinine.

I didn't act like it "technically" wasn't a drug at all. I expressly said you were wrong when you tried to pin that on me the first time. What I said was that it is not comparable to weed in terms of effects. How old are you? Do these arguments work with your parents?

Caffeine is a stimulant and the other two are sedatives, by the very definition their effects are different. However caffeine is far more dangerous to consume than Marijuana, or THC for that matter, as shown through plenty of studies on the adverse and dangerous effects of caffeine especially on children. Now you keep "laughing" at me comparing them, but please demonstrate how Marijuana's effects are worse. There is chemical dependency to Caffeine there is not for Marijuana. You can overdose and die on caffeine, there is no data to show you can on Marijuana. You can cause serious long term issues from use of even minimal amounts of caffeine, the data is still limited on Marijuana, but early indications are there will be limited impact on memory long term.

Just not seeing how one is soooo much worse than the other, that they can't even be compared. Only difference is one has been commercially available for 100 years the other has been illegal with little to no scientific reason as to why.

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 09:49 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Why NO on 3? I have a serious fundamental problem with people's growing desire to chemically change the way they feel. I look at drug use (and alcohol abuse) as a selfish act that removes someone from their real world responsibilities and life. We as a society have enough forms of recreation to be distracted or waste time. To add another that physically/chemically impairs is just ludicrous to me.

I guess you have a right to feel that way.  Why you feel you should have a right to dictate what other adults choose to do to their bodies is where you lose me.  Drug abuse might be a "selfish" act, but how does making them a criminal for a victimless crime going to improve their situation?  How about getting them some help for their addiction.  And not everyone who uses drugs abuse them.

Quote:I have seen so many friends and people I grew up with become infatuated with getting high that it dominates a lot of their thoughts or activities and, in some cases, it has limited their life's potential. One of my life long best friends started smoking occasionally a few years ago. Now, at 35, he can't go anywhere other than work without being bored or wanting to smoke. He is habitually/mentally addicted. I can't, in good conscience, vote to give that the go ahead as a way of regular life for upcoming generations.

I watch football every Saturday and Sunday and beer commercials dominate the advertising.  How much of our society centers around drinking?  Ever been to a tailgate or a bar on the weekend?  Has alcohol "limited their life's potential".  I'd argue not graduating school has a bigger impact on "life potential".  Should we arrest people who don't take school seriously?  Of course not.  

Quote:Side note: I find it funny that people even need to have weed legalized at this point. CLEARLY... CLEARLY people who want it have very little problem getting their hands on weed. Legalizing seems more like validation or confirmation of the psyche of drug users more than it is about health, wellness, taxes, or availability. Almost as if users need society to tell them it's ok to get F'd up or that we all feel the same pain or struggle with boredom and the desire to feel different.

This is dumb to me.  Say the government arbitrarily criminalized fast food and soda.  If you are still going to eat it, wouldn't you prefer it not be considered a crime for you to do so?

Are you really serious?

[Benton]

(11-04-2015, 01:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - You keep banging the same drum and avoiding the obvious that I have pointed out: Comparing the effects a cup of coffee or soda (common products with caffeine) to a joint is ludicrous and asinine.
 

Not really. More people try caffeine and become addicted than marijuana or nicotine. It effects the brain and alters moods just like any other drug.

It's socially acceptable. So was smoking once. So was smoking weed once. So were a lot of things.

I don't smoke it. I probably wouldn't if it were legal in Kentucky, but it's not so I don't have to guess that one. But I find it odd when people say it's a drug therefore it's bad... but have no problem drinking coffee or taking a pill prescribed by their doctor for depression, erectile dysfunction or ADHD. And yes, ED fits into that as the majority of cases aren't believed to be physical problems, but mental ones that prohibit stiffy.

[Au165]

(11-04-2015, 01:37 PM)Benton Wrote: It's socially acceptable. So was smoking once. So was smoking weed once. So were a lot of things.

It is a perfect example of people's moral relativism based on socially accepted use of certain drugs.

[PDub80]

(11-04-2015, 01:29 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I guess you have a right to feel that way.  Why you feel you should have a right to dictate what other adults choose to do to their bodies is where you lose me.  Drug abuse might be a "selfish" act, but how does making them a criminal for a victimless crime going to improve their situation?  How about getting them some help for their addiction.  And not everyone who uses drugs abuse them.



I watch football every Saturday and Sunday and beer commercials dominate the advertising.  How much of our society centers around drinking?  Ever been to a tailgate or a bar on the weekend?  Has alcohol "limited their life's potential".  I'd argue not graduating school has a bigger impact on "life potential".  Should we arrest people who don't take school seriously?  Of course not.  



This is dumb to me.  Say the government arbitrarily criminalized fast food and soda.  If you are still going to eat it, wouldn't you prefer it not be considered a crime for you to do so?

Are you really serious?

- I don't view drug use as a victimless crime. I think it dumbs down and demotivates society, making society as a whole a victim. To widely accept it would be to eventually spread that dumbing down to be acceptable as a norm. People say that smoking cigarettes is a victimless crime, too. Accept for when generations of tax payers have to pay health care costs for it. There are more layers to drug use harm than just some guy sitting around getting baked and playing video games.

The line of thinking of drug use being a victimless crime reminds me of the moon scene from Enter the Dragon. Forward to 1 min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar_s18E5l0U

- I don't care what someone does to their body. However, people always gloss over societal effects of drug use because it's not PC to point them out. People can hang themselves in the privacy of their own homes for all I care. Frankly, I don't. But when it drains on society (and lack of sobriety does), then I have a problem with it. There are already plenty of ways to be amused or distracted. To add in a substance to ingest to do so, is not a good thing, IMO.

- Alcohol abuse has limited people's potential, yes. Absolutely. Knowing that... and then wanting to add in ANOTHER thing to do so is insane to me.

- You would be wrong to argue the point on college. I could point to all of the grads every year who do not put their degrees to use and are looking for, or are out of work. I would also point out that there are more millionaires without college degrees in this country than with them. Graduating college can increase chances of success depending on career choice, sure. But attending school is not a detriment to someone's success. Besides that fact, going to school or not does NOT effect someone's mental state in terms of impairing them.

- What's dumb is trying and win an argument with hypothetical situations. Your hypothetical (imaginary), made up situation with fast food is designed to prove a point that doesn't exist in the real world. Fantasy instead of facts won't work with me.   

^ Besides, that, the government did not arbitrarily criminalize weed. It's a mood altering drug, therefore it is a controlled substance.

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 01:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: It is a perfect example of people's moral relativism based on socially accepted use of certain drugs.

"Reefer Madness" obviously did its job.  

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 02:02 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - I don't view drug use as a victimless crime. I think it dumbs down and demotivates society, making society as a whole a victim. To widely accept it would be to eventually spread that dumbing down to be acceptable as a norm. People say that smoking cigarettes is a victimless crime, too. Accept for when generations of tax payers have to pay health care costs for it. There are more layers to drug use harm than just some guy sitting around getting baked and playing video games.

The line of thinking of drug use being a victimless crime reminds me of the moon scene from Enter the Dragon. Forward to 1 min in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar_s18E5l0U

If this makes society a "victim" so does people who don't get an education.  I mean I have to pay for all these social services on account that some people just suck at life.  We don't arrest people for that so I don't see any reason why we should arbitrarily arrest people who use pot.  Moreover, not all users of pot are "losers".  That's just propaganda.  

Quote:- I don't care what someone does to their body. However, people always gloss over societal effects of drug use because it's not PC to point them out. People can hang themselves in the privacy of their own homes for all I care. Frankly, I don't. But when it drains on society (and lack of sobriety does), then I have a problem with it. There are already plenty of ways to be amused or distracted. To add in a substance to ingest to do so, is not a good thing, IMO.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't be OK with making them criminals for their choices.  Especially choices that don't directly affect other individuals.  

Quote:- Alcohol abuse has limited people's potential, yes. Absolutely. Knowing that... and then wanting to add in ANOTHER thing to do so is insane to me.

And alcohol is LEGAL.  And a celebrated part of our culture.  Which makes you wonder why pot is arbitrarily singled out.

Quote:- You would be wrong to argue the point on college. I could point to all of the grads every year who do not put their degrees to use and are looking for, or are out of work. I would also point out that there are more millionaires without college degrees in this country than with them. Graduating college can increase chances of success depending on career choice, sure. But attending school is not a detriment to someone's success. Besides that fact, going to school or not does NOT effect someone's mental state in terms of impairing them.

Studies overwhelmingly suggest their is a direct correlation with income and education.  There are outliers of course, but on the whole educated people make over a million dollars in their lifetime over uneducated people.  

Quote:- What's dumb is trying and win an argument with hypothetical situations. Your hypothetical (imaginary), made up situation with fast food is designed to prove a point that doesn't exist in the real world. Fantasy instead of facts won't work with me.   

^ Besides, that, the government did not arbitrarily criminalize weed. It's a mood altering drug, therefore it is a controlled substance.

It isn't dumb.  Pot hasn't always been illegal.  Alcohol wasn't illegal.  Then it became illegal.  And then it became legal once again.  Did the intoxicating effects of the drug change?  Or was it simply people's attitudes towards it?

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 12:59 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Why do you feel locking someone up for smoking weed is the better solution?

Because once people go to jail for smoking it, their job prospects improve and they won't be such a "drain" on society.  

[PDub80]

(11-04-2015, 01:37 PM)Benton Wrote: Not really. More people try caffeine and become addicted than marijuana or nicotine. It effects the brain and alters moods just like any other drug.

It's socially acceptable. So was smoking once. So was smoking weed once. So were a lot of things.

I don't smoke it. I probably wouldn't if it were legal in Kentucky, but it's not so I don't have to guess that one. But I find it odd when people say it's a drug therefore it's bad... but have no problem drinking coffee or taking a pill prescribed by their doctor for depression, erectile dysfunction or ADHD. And yes, ED fits into that as the majority of cases aren't believed to be physical problems, but mental ones that prohibit stiffy.

- Again with the addiction thing... People can become addicted to huffing spray paint form a bag. That doesn't mean that spray paint or bags should be illegal. Why do the weed backers always think it's about addiction?

I'm laughing my ass off at "People try caffeine". Ahahahahahaha! Do you live in Amish country?

Saying that the effects of ingesting a normal amount of caffeine in a soda or a cup of coffee (again, ANYTHING can be abused) and equating that to weed is absurd. It's a petty, weak argument that doesn't compare in the least. The effects of a normal amount of caffeine compared to weed once ingested is incomparable. To even begin to assert so shows how weak your stance is. That's what you have in your arsenal of relate-able norms in society? A Mountain Dew? A Venti Starbucks?

^ Question? Are you knowingly saying that or is it just what stoners say to make themselves feel better about their drug use? I can see it now: Guy takes a long draw from a bong, "Man, this is no different than a latte at Starbucks. Only, it just relaxes me from my impossible day."  

It isn't socially acceptable and widely accepted as normal by most people's standard.

- You're pointing to medical conditions and medicine for it. Medicinal weed is a different subject than legalizing recreational marijuana.

[Brownshoe]

You should look at the reason why marijuana was made illegal. They used to say that it made white women want to sleep with Mexicans and black people, and it drove people crazy. That's why it became illegal.

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 12:58 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Dude, XenoMorph literally JUST said that.

- You look at alcohol as a tool to change your mood?
- Smoking a cigarette does not come close to equating to a joint.

- Again, THAT'S my point... Use weed to relax (escape)? Use pills to relax (escape)? Absurd, and at the very least mentally unhealthy way to deal with things. That is metal dependency.

- If your family or job is making you sooooo stressed that you have to turn to ingesting chemically mood altering substances than... YES. F them both. That is NOT healthy for someone.
- You are really being unfair to Wendy's workers with that comment. (Kidding).

Eating fast food isn't "healthy".  Americans are some of the most obese people on the planet, and yet I see no support for the banning of fast food.  How many people a year die from smoking pot as opposed to heart disease from eating unhealthy diets?  

[WhoDeyWho]

(11-04-2015, 11:18 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - The "It's not addicting" argument is a moot point to me. I don't care if it's addicting or not. Other than medically, the purpose of it is to get F'd up (unless for medical purposes) and a line has to be drawn. Weed is the line for Ohioans. 

- I didn't say his life is ruined.

- My father was a "functioning" alcoholic. As was his mother, and his sister.

- I know people with gambling addictions.

- I know people who spend more money than they have on weed.

- The caffeine is a drug argument is classic and so funny! It's hilarious, really.

- NONE of your mentioned legalized activities impair people when used responsibly. NONE. You can go gamble and still be sober. You can smoke a cigarette and be sober. You can have a beer or two and be sober. You can drink a cup of coffee or soda and be sober. YOU CAN'T SMOKE WEED AND BE SOBER. Equating it to something like caffeine is ludicrous.

So you want to be the "sober" police?  How many of you drink beer to be sober?  And why should it be a crime for people to become intoxicated on pot if it isn't a crime to be intoxicated on alcohol.  

I'd also argue that the intoxicating effects of alcohol are so much more powerful that it can result in death.  

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-04-2015, 01:09 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I did NOT say lock someone up for smoking weed. That is a completely different argument.

LOL...If you are arguing for the opposite of it being legal you are arguing for the incarceration of those that smoke it.  It is not a different argument.