Zac Taylor vs Marvin Lewis

[Bilbo Saggins]

(12-22-2021, 09:16 PM)jason Wrote: Fair enough... But you also don't hit on many FA signings when you only get a coupla over the hill, and bargain bin free agents to work with. No objective observer can claim that Marvin ever got this much help in free agency.

This is one of the reasons as to why it's impossible to judge them apples to apples.  Aside from Waynes, they have done really well in FA as of late.  During the Lewis regime you'd see guys like Bobby Williams or Reggie Nelson come in from another team and you'd say to yourself, "Wow!  This guy was a hit!" ...BUT they would always have to come at a bargain.  Going out and paying straight up #1 NT money for a guy like Reader, or going out and signing someone like Hendrickson(who was fresh off of a double digit sack season) just wasn't happening.  More often than not they'd have half of their own big ticket guys leave due to being "overpaid."  

Lewis made the playoffs a healthy amount of the time and he did so(primarily) with a second round QB.  He also had a lot of time to implement/tweak his system.  ZT has a team where a lot of the guys who help to carry the load are super high draft picks...guys who wouldn't have been available had the team not done so poorly.  It's impossible to pick ZT over Lewis until there's more evidence JMHO.  That's about as fair of a thing as you can say as a fan: "Where is the evidence?"

[Waite Hoyt]

Finally we have a front office willing to invest money in our roster. We have a young franchise QB. We have a good group of. Play makers on offense and a good defense. A reliable FG kicker and a solid punter. We have taken a nice step forward this year and if we address the offensive line this off season we will set to contend for a title.


Taylor isn’t going anywhere regardless how this season plays out. If ownership investsvin the OL, continuing to build on Taylor‘s system we will be a very happy fan base. He will be given the opportunity to finish the job he has started. If we step back next year it will then be time to change coaches.

[HarleyDog]

(12-23-2021, 09:35 AM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Finally we have a front office willing to invest money in our roster. We have a young franchise QB. We have a good group of. Play makers on offense and a good defense. A reliable FG kicker and a solid punter. We have taken a nice step forward this year and if we address the offensive line this off season we will set to contend for a title.


Taylor isn’t going anywhere regardless how this season plays out. If ownership investsvin the OL, continuing to build on Taylor‘s system we will be a very happy fan base. He will be given the opportunity to finish the job he has started. If we step back next year it will then be time to change coaches.

This is my feeling as well. I think some want Zac gone based on play calling mistakes and a few others which are fixable. He is learning along with the team. However, when you look at the overall picture, him and the assistants he chose have done extremely well in turning this franchise around for the better. Heck, we actually feel like fans of a real NFL team for once. The team also looks like an NFL team for once.

In the Marvin era, we had high hopes but I think bottom line, we were all routing for a playoff win. It was a hurdle for the team and the fans. We didn't achieve that goal. However, with Zac, I think most of us are comfortable expecting so much more and right now he appears to be heading in that direction. Zac is going to be here next year regardless of how the rest of the season plays out.

[dr tarzan]

The biggest diff between Marv and Zac......Zac can beat the Stealers.....I don't care if we go 2-14 as long as both wins are against that Franchise....something I've said since the Steal Curtain days.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Marvin Lewis had a 0.518 win percentage.

Zac Taylor has an 0.315 winning percentage.

Until Zac wins a playoff game it’s Marvin over Zac every day of the week. No, I don’t want Marvin back but his record is outstanding; second only to Forrest Gregg among Bengal head coaches.

With all this said I do want the Bengals to win a playoff game; I don’t care who the head coach is when it happens.

[t3r3e3]

(12-23-2021, 10:30 AM)dr tarzan Wrote: The biggest diff between Marv and Zac......Zac can beat the Stealers.....I don't care if we go 2-14 as long as both wins are against that Franchise....something I've said since the Steal Curtain days.

There is nothing short of Playoff wins and Super Bowl wins better than beating the Steelers.

[*bengalfan74*]

I've always been of the opinion that Marvin's roster building prowess was a bit overblown. Just take a look at his LBers through the years. And that's from the self proclaimed LBer whisperer.

[Tlawsonmariat82]

Zac is nowhere near Marvin;he doesn't have the resume..Marvin was the architect of arguably the greatest defense in league history..Marvin had instant success taking over a 2-14 roster;Zac's first 2 years would've gotten him fired anywhere else facts..

[Tlawsonmariat82]

(12-23-2021, 11:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've always been of the opinion that Marvin's roster building prowess was a bit overblown. Just take a look at his LBers through the years. And that's from the self proclaimed LBer whisperer.

That's the one position I think even he'd agree he never got right drafting here, I think if they would've spent in FA like they're doing now on linebackers it could've been totally different..

[TJ528]

(12-22-2021, 09:25 PM)basballguy Wrote: Replying just to this but i'm not sure where you saw the Auzie bashing....local sentiment always was "he won't win us games but he won't cost us games".

I think Auzie is playing slightly better than he did in Dallas so far...which is great.  I do believe this was a good signing by the front office.

I think Apple is still bust, but that's just my opinion until he actually starts making plays and tackling correctly.  

Personally, I think Apple's been our best CB since the bye week.  

You haven't heard his name called because he's shutting down his competitors.  

If anything, I'd be willing to offer Apple a new 2 or 3 year contract based on how he's played this year. 

[TJ528]

(12-22-2021, 10:01 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: No he certainly didn’t, but he did have some swings and misses on decent contracts as well (Coles and Bryant off the top of my head). Definitely had some hits as well.

I do think it’s fair to question why Marvin didn’t get more FA’s though. Zac has used FA plenty. Maybe Marvin was part of the reason we never went big in FA because the draft only way was his way too? Maybe he just didn’t push Mike enough on the subject. Either way, Zac came in and used FA and has been very successful so far. A complete 180 from what we had been doing.

Maybe Marvin should have done a better job convincing or demanding FA additions, if he wanted them at all. If he really wanted to use FA why’d he stick around 16 years if his owner wouldn’t let him. Could have left way before and maybe saved his career if he found a better owner.

People can credit this to the Blackburns all they want, but Troy certainly sounded like Mike not too long ago and they are the same family. Mike is still the owner.

I liked Marvin when he was here. well with the exception of his press conferences but anyway.  After 2015 it was time for him to.  He probably should've been gone sooner but not many coaches could've turn the roster and had 5 playoff teams after doing so.  Has there EVER been a better run in our organizations history?  

Anyway, personally, we can all question Marvin as a head coach and some of the things he did.  However, if Marvin didnt take the job in 2003, god only knows where this organization would be today.  Marvin brought the new age of NFL to Cincinnati.  I'll be forever thankful to Marvin for doing so.   As far as free agency, Mike was still the GM at the time.  Mike is notoriously cheap as hell.  Marvin could've asked for money to spend and Mike could've said FU....Anyway, time will tell the Zac vs Marvin thing. 

[leonardfan40]

(12-23-2021, 12:10 PM)TJ528 Wrote: I liked Marvin when he was here. well with the exception of his press conferences but anyway.  After 2015 it was time for him to.  He probably should've been gone sooner but not many coaches could've turn the roster and had 5 playoff teams after doing so.  Has there EVER been a better run in our organizations history?  

Anyway, personally, we can all question Marvin as a head coach and some of the things he did.  However, if Marvin didnt take the job in 2003, god only knows where this organization would be today.  Marvin brought the new age of NFL to Cincinnati.  I'll be forever thankful to Marvin for doing so.   As far as free agency, Mike was still the GM at the time.  Mike is notoriously cheap as hell.  Marvin could've asked for money to spend and Mike could've said FU....Anyway, time will tell the Zac vs Marvin thing. 

That’s true, Marvin did great things for this organization and city. Not trying to take anything away from that. We could have been worse than the Browns/Lions the last 20 years if not for him.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Another thing that makes this a difficult comparison is that Zac requested....and got...a much more expanded staff than Marvin had. That leads to more eyes watching film/scouting. I think that's been an under the radar move that he made that appears to pay dividends.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-23-2021, 11:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've always been of the opinion that Marvin's roster building prowess was a bit overblown. Just take a look at his LBers through the years. And that's from the self proclaimed LBer whisperer.

He had some good rosters, but kinda got left behind in adapting to the modern game. Seemed like he was looking for Ray Lewis when that style of play went out the window. I think, coupled with that horrendous 2015 draft, contributed to his demise.

[TJ528]

(12-23-2021, 12:49 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: That’s true, Marvin did great things for this organization and city. Not trying to take anything away from that. We could have been worse than the Browns/Lions the last 20 years if not for him.

On another note, how many families are thankful to Marvin Lewis and his foundation for the scholarships that were awarded to local students for college?  I can't tell you of another head coach that came through Cincinnati and had their own foundation and tried to improve a community more than Marvin Lewis did.  

So again, for his flaws, Marvin Lewis' 15 years in the city of Cincinnati benefited it more than he hurt it. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

The only notable FA signings that I recall from Marvin's fist two seasons were Reggie Kelly, John Thornton, Tory James, and Bobbie Williams. Am I missing anyone?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-23-2021, 01:25 PM)TJ528 Wrote: On another note, how many families are thankful to Marvin Lewis and his foundation for the scholarships that were awarded to local students for college?  I can't tell you of another head coach that came through Cincinnati and had their own foundation and tried to improve a community more than Marvin Lewis did.  

So again, for his flaws, Marvin Lewis' 15 years in the city of Cincinnati benefited it more than he hurt it. 

Very good point. Hey, like others have said, without Marvin, who knows where this franchise would be at this point. He was breath of fresh air when we desperately needed it. I loved Marvin, until it got stale. That wasn't Marvin's fault though, Mike should've cut bait sooner. Marvin did a lot of good things, on and off the field.

[TJ528]

(12-23-2021, 01:27 PM)Wyche Wrote: The only notable FA signings that I recall from Marvin's fist two seasons were Reggie Kelly, John Thornton, Tory James, and Bobbie Williams. Am I missing anyone?

Wyche, I'd agree with you on the free agency for ML.  Where would you put those FA signings vs the last 2 seasons signings of ZT?  Comparably speaking?  

If i remember right wasnt Warren Sapp set to sign with Cincinnati and the contract offer was pulled or some shit? 

[TJ528]

(12-23-2021, 01:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Very good point. Hey, like others have said, without Marvin, who knows where this franchise would be at this point. He was breath of fresh air when we desperately needed it. I loved Marvin, until it got stale. That wasn't Marvin's fault though, Mike should've cut bait sooner. Marvin did a lot of good things, on and off the field.

I mean prior to Marvin Lewis this team loved to hire from within and hire coaches that had been with the team previously.  Coslet, LeBeau, after Shula's failure....

So thank god they took a step away from the Cincinnati pipeline.  I mean it could've always been worse.  We could've ended up with Tom Coughlin. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-23-2021, 01:32 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Wyche, I'd agree with you on the free agency for ML.  Where would you put those FA signings vs the last 2 seasons signings of ZT?  Comparably speaking?  

If i remember right wasnt Warren Sapp set to sign with Cincinnati and the contract offer was pulled or some shit? 

Ah yes, the Sapp fiasco....ugh. I don't recall the specifics, but it seems we botched that one big time.

I'd put the last two years light years ahead of those guys. We only got a taste last year....Waynes missed the entire season, Reader went down early, and there wasn't much else, aside from Von Bell. The first year of Zac, we got typical, bargain bin types. Year two looked promising. This year? Holy smokes! You add Trey Hendrickson, Reader comes back and ready to play, Awuzie winds up a very solid addition, Mike Hilton, Larry O,, then you still have Bell balling, and the Eli Apple gamble pays off way better than I anticipated. That's just the defense. Reiff improved RT pretty substantially, and re-signing Spain was key.