Zac Taylor vs Marvin Lewis

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-23-2021, 09:20 PM)jason Wrote: Oh he's already made it his make year. There's no way in hell I see them firing him. All we can do is get behind the guy, and hope they pull something off this year... And in the years to come.

Yeah, Zac made it happen this season like we all wanted to see. Hopefully it leads to the Playoffs and a win.

[*jason*]

(12-24-2021, 02:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Zac made it happen this season like we all wanted to see. Hopefully it leads to the Playoffs and a win.

If he makes the playoffs, there will be a 16 year extension offered to him.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-24-2021, 02:52 PM)jason Wrote: If he makes the playoffs, there will be a 16 year extension offered to him.

Probably, I might even be down if he gets a playoff win lol

[TecmoBengals]

(12-24-2021, 02:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Probably, I might even be down if he gets a playoff win lol

Playoff win and he enters Bengals lore as the GOAT franchise coach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-24-2021, 03:00 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Playoff win and he enters Bengals lore as the GOAT franchise coach.

Been ages that is for sure. GET THAT MONKEY OFF OUR BACK ZAC!!!

[Destro]

(12-23-2021, 11:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Idk Zac can flip that crazy switch…

Marvin will clap his a$$

[fredtoast]

(12-23-2021, 09:20 PM)jason Wrote: Oh he's already made it his make year. There's no way in hell I see them firing him.

Have you already forgotten the mood around here just one week ago?

If we lose out it means we finish 3-7 with 4 straight losses at home.  That would be a major choke job after a 5-2 start. It would leave a bad stench on the season.  Especially for the people who buy tickets.  We have laid some real turds at home.  We came within a hair of losing to Jacksonville at home.  We did lose to Chicago.

This team should not lose out.  I don't think they will lose out.  But I would not bet anything against it.  And if we do then Zac will be gone.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-24-2021, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote:   But I would not bet anything against it.  And if we do then Zac will be gone.

You sure Fred?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-24-2021, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin rebuilt the roster with mostly mid tier free agents.  Zac got a lot more top players.

Here is a comparison between the per-year salaries of the top free agents Marvin signed to rebuild the roster and the guys Zac got.  (The salaries of Marvin's signings have been adjusted to today's dollars based on the increase of the salary cap from &75 million in 2003 to $182 today) 

Thornton ($9.1) + Hardy ($8.5) + James ($8.7) + Kelly ($4.0) + Clemmons ($2.8) + Herring ($5.5) + O'Neal ($4.1) + Nate Webster ($5.4) = $48.1

Hendrickson ($15.0) + Trae Waynes ($14.0) + Reader ($13.3M) + Riley Reiff ($7.5M) + Awuzie ($7.3M) + Ogunjobi ($6.2 M) + Bell ($6.0) + Hilton ($6.0) = $75.3

You can see that they are not even in the same ballpark. Zac at over 50% more than what Marvin got.

.....but Marvin didn't have have to redo BOTH sides of the ball, as has been discussed in this thread. The offense was pretty loaded.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-24-2021, 06:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....but Marvin didn't have have to redo BOTH sides of the ball, as has been discussed in this thread. The offense was pretty loaded.

Truth, the trenches Taylor inherited on both sides were downright terrible and probably the worst in the NFL.

This is the main reason Taylor is starting to win, much better trench play on both sides.

Have said it many times, doesn't matter if you are Bill Belichick if your Lines on both sides suck ballz.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-24-2021, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin rebuilt the roster with mostly mid tier free agents.  Zac got a lot more top players.

Here is a comparison between the per-year salaries of the top free agents Marvin signed to rebuild the roster and the guys Zac got.  (The salaries of Marvin's signings have been adjusted to today's dollars based on the increase of the salary cap from &75 million in 2003 to $182 today) 

Thornton ($9.1) + Hardy ($8.5) + James ($8.7) + Kelly ($4.0) + Clemmons ($2.8) + Herring ($5.5) + O'Neal ($4.1) + Nate Webster ($5.4) = $48.1

Hendrickson ($15.0) + Trae Waynes ($14.0) + Reader ($13.3M) + Riley Reiff ($7.5M) + Awuzie ($7.3M) + Ogunjobi ($6.2 M) + Bell ($6.0) + Hilton ($6.0) = $75.3

You can see that they are not even in the same ballpark. Zac at over 50% more than what Marvin got.

You're still not getting the point of the thread. I'm not comparing the two in anything other than the fact that people gave credit to Marv for rebuilding the roster, so should Zac get the same credit?

That's literally it.

But since that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone, I guess I'll address your point anyway. You're not accounting for how much we had available to spend.

In 2003, we were spending $10 million alone on Palmer and Kitna ($24.3 million adjusted for cap inflation). We were paying Chad $5.42 million ($13.2 million), Dillon $5.2 million (12.65 million), Simmons $2.96 million ($7.2 million), P-Dub $2.44 million ($5.94 million), etc.

In 2021, 7 of our 8 highest salary averages are guys we landed in free agency.

Basically, Marv's versions of Hendrickson, Waynes and Reader were already on the roster in the form of Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson and Corey Dillon. We didn't have as much money to even spend in free agency.

Now can we get back to the point of this thread?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/salaries/breakdown/2003/cincinnati-bengals/

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-24-2021, 06:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....but Marvin didn't have have to redo BOTH sides of the ball, as has been discussed in this thread. The offense was pretty loaded.

Yep, many pieces on O were already in place.

[Tony]

(12-24-2021, 08:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're still not getting the point of the thread. I'm not comparing the two in anything other than the fact that people gave credit to Marv for rebuilding the roster, so should Zac get the same credit?

That's literally it.

But since that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone, I guess I'll address your point anyway. You're not accounting for how much we had available to spend.

In 2003, we were spending $10 million alone on Palmer and Kitna ($24.3 million adjusted for cap inflation). We were paying Chad $5.42 million ($13.2 million), Dillon $5.2 million (12.65 million), Simmons $2.96 million ($7.2 million), P-Dub $2.44 million ($5.94 million), etc.

In 2021, 7 of our 8 highest salary averages are guys we landed in free agency.

Basically, Marv's versions of Hendrickson, Waynes and Reader were already on the roster in the form of Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson and Corey Dillon. We didn't have as much money to even spend in free agency.

Now can we get back to the point of this thread?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/salaries/breakdown/2003/cincinnati-bengals/

This roster is way better than Marvin's 2005 time.. Palmer's 2nd year. MARVIN'S 3rd YearThat defense and ohalete was horrible...

[Shake n Blake]

(12-24-2021, 09:28 PM)Tony Wrote: This roster is way better than Marvin's 2005 time.. Palmer's 2nd year. MARVIN'S 3rd YearThat defense and ohalete was horrible...

Separate point.

Fred is talking about money spent.

Zac did do a better job of identifying players and building up the D.

Marv just whiffed on a lot of guys and couldn't get the most of the talent he DID have on D.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-24-2021, 08:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You're still not getting the point of the thread. I'm not comparing the two in anything other than the fact that people gave credit to Marv for rebuilding the roster, so should Zac get the same credit?

That's literally it.

But since that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone, I guess I'll address your point anyway. You're not accounting for how much we had available to spend.

In 2003, we were spending $10 million alone on Palmer and Kitna ($24.3 million adjusted for cap inflation). We were paying Chad $5.42 million ($13.2 million), Dillon $5.2 million (12.65 million), Simmons $2.96 million ($7.2 million), P-Dub $2.44 million ($5.94 million), etc.

In 2021, 7 of our 8 highest salary averages are guys we landed in free agency.

Basically, Marv's versions of Hendrickson, Waynes and Reader were already on the roster in the form of Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson and Corey Dillon. We didn't have as much money to even spend in free agency.

Now can we get back to the point of this thread?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/salaries/breakdown/2003/cincinnati-bengals/

Man.... Simmons. He was a solid player on some dark ages defenses. Liked that guy.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-24-2021, 08:54 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, many pieces on O were already in place.

Mainly a pretty good oline. A fringe HOF RB, who was let go for a rather successful RB to take the reigns in Rudy Johnson. Palmer, TJ, Chad, got Reggie Kelly in FA, not a bad way to start off. Beats disinterested AJ, ALWAYS harassed Andy Dalton, injured Mixon, John Ross/the usher in 316, and Tyler Boyd. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-24-2021, 11:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Separate point.

Fred is talking about money spent.

Zac did do a better job of identifying players and building up the D.

Marv just whiffed on a lot of guys and couldn't get the most of the talent he DID have on D.

To me, rebuilding the O and D is a rather big accomplishment in essentially two years is not too shabby. The first year of Taylor saw very little roster turnover.

[Tlawsonmariat82]

(12-25-2021, 01:12 AM)Wyche Wrote: To me, rebuilding the O and D is a rather big accomplishment in essentially two years is not too shabby. The first year of Taylor saw very little roster turnover.

With the same players zac won 2 games with marvin won 6..With the roster marvin took over that won 2 games marvin won 8 right away..

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-25-2021, 01:31 AM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: With the same players zac won 2 games with marvin won 6..With the roster marvin took over that won 2 games marvin won 8 right away..

Yep. But like I said. Look at the offensive roster he inherited vs the one he left. His last season here, the defense was setting NFL records on defense they were so bad, o line was ranked in the thirties. It wasn't a good team. I think people forget that team was circling the drain. I think last season is at a 6-7 win team last year with JB at the helm. He has played well against teams he's seen twice. He didn't get the luxury his first year. Marvin was a FAR more accomplished coach than Zac, no question. A more experienced staff probably wins 4 games in year one, then starts overhauling the roster, unless they just decide to gut it and tank year one. All of our core players were in their thirties. The additions to them wasn't much. Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, John Ross, etc, etc. Turds. Whoever got this gig had their work cut out for them.

[Whatever]

(12-24-2021, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin rebuilt the roster with mostly mid tier free agents.  Zac got a lot more top players.

Here is a comparison between the per-year salaries of the top free agents Marvin signed to rebuild the roster and the guys Zac got.  (The salaries of Marvin's signings have been adjusted to today's dollars based on the increase of the salary cap from &75 million in 2003 to $182 today) 

Thornton ($9.1) + Hardy ($8.5) + James ($8.7) + Kelly ($4.0) + Clemmons ($2.8) + Herring ($5.5) + O'Neal ($4.1) + Nate Webster ($5.4) = $48.1

Hendrickson ($15.0) + Trae Waynes ($14.0) + Reader ($13.3M) + Riley Reiff ($7.5M) + Awuzie ($7.3M) + Ogunjobi ($6.2 M) + Bell ($6.0) + Hilton ($6.0) = $75.3

You can see that they are not even in the same ballpark. Zac at over 50% more than what Marvin got.

This is because of 2 main reasons.

First, Marvin's Bengals took Palmer #1 overall before there was a rookie wage scale and Palmer got a massive (at that time) 6 year, $42.7 mil rookie deal.  That drastically cuts down the money available for free agents.

Second, Marvin had nowhere near the complete rebuild that Zac had to do.  Look at the starters on the '05 club that were holdovers from previous coaches...

Rudi Johnson
Chad Johnson
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Willie Anderson
Rich Braham
Levi Jones
Justin Smith
Brian Simmons

Compared to for Zac in '21...

Tyler Boyd
CJ Uzomah
Trey Hopkins
Sam Hubbard
Jessie Bates

Marvin had 3 All Pro's and 5 Pro Bowlers that he would carry over 3 years into his rebuild.  Zac has 1 All Pro and no Pro Bowlers.  Marvin inherited a much stronger core of talent that was entering their primes.  The top tier talent that Zac got were past their sell by date.