Top 10 highest graded Bengals for the season

[Nepa]

(01-12-2022, 10:54 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Yeah, but how do those drops compare to their targets? I feel like all those guys were probably targets a lot more than Chase which makes his drop % higher. 

Chase was 9th in the league in drop percentage with a 8.6% (highest among WRs), while Deebo Samuel was 11th with a 8.3% drop rate. (Corey Davis was 8.5% in between). The highest drop percentage was Alvin Kamara (RB) with a 13.4%. The first 8 highest in drop percentage were all RBs and one TE (Austin Hooper).

Travis Kelce was at 7.5%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/receiving_advanced.htm

Some other points to consider, however. Chase was third highest in yards after catch, 3rd highest in touchdowns, and 4th highest in yards. I think we can live with these drops in his first year, given his extraordinary production, given that there is "not a huge gap" (my original point) in the drops from some of the elite receivers. We are spoiled a little by having Tyler Boyd on the team, since he had zero drops (save on a two-point conversion).

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-12-2022, 10:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: They gave Ja'Marr Chase a run blocking grade of 53.9.
Higgins has a run block grade of 72.0.

Definitely doesn’t match my eye test.

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2022, 10:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm assuming you're saying it's wrong to give Jonah the sack because he didn't even try to engage the guy who sacked Burrow?
If so, who should that sack go to?
Williams was the closest OL to that defender.
EDIT - Or maybe it was Spain who blocked the wrong guy. Hard to tell with these angles.

It's neither of those guys. It's a naked bootleg, you leave the EMLOS free and expect him to wash down the line. You can see Boyd running a drag - that is where Burrow would be looking for a quick dump off. Sometimes you'll see this paired with a slide or a block and release into the flat instead of a drag, but that EMLOS is unblocked on a naked. If you run a boot or a waggle, a G will pull around and act as a blocker for you.

To answer your question, that sack doesn't go on anyone. There was no one responsible for him. It was a good play by the defender. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-12-2022, 10:49 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Who disliked Lawson? Everyone was pissed when the Bengals didn't bring him back. 

Do you just make this shit up? 

Not defending Fred, but a TON of people said he was overrated as sack numbers were not high. On Twitter, CJ, here, etc.

The loudest were the ones who were pissed though, so it stands to reason as to why one would think that few were happy.

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2022, 10:42 AM)Wyche Wrote: Bottom line on oline grading.....if you're not in the film room on Monday, you have no way of definitively making those calls.

There is going to be some variation to how coaches do things but most things are blocked in a very similar manner and you can more or less figure it out. If a team is running outside zone, their blocking assignments are more than likely going to either be the exact same or very similar to other teams OZ plays. There generally isn't drastic changes. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-12-2022, 11:16 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: There is going to be some variation to how coaches do things but most things are blocked in a very similar manner and you can more or less figure it out. If a team is running outside zone, their blocking assignments are more than likely going to either be the exact same or very similar to other teams OZ plays. There generally isn't drastic changes. 

That's a pretty good point as well.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2022, 11:12 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Definitely doesn’t match my eye test.

They listed Chase as having 314 run blocking snaps, Higgins with 197.
So it's possible that they have seen something in those 314 run blocking snaps that we haven't to give Chase a lower run blocking score.
I'm sure as hell not going to go back and watch all of Chase's snaps through the season to make my own grade lol.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-12-2022, 11:12 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's neither of those guys. It's a naked bootleg, you leave the EMLOS free and expect him to wash down the line. You can see Boyd running a drag - that is where Burrow would be looking for a quick dump off. Sometimes you'll see this paired with a slide or a block and release into the flat instead of a drag, but that EMLOS is unblocked on a naked. If you run a boot or a waggle, a G will pull around and act as a blocker for you.

To answer your question, that sack doesn't go on anyone. There was no one responsible for him. It was a good play by the defender. 

Didn't even consider the naked boot. I believe you are correct. I considered the edge would be "neutralized" by the rollout, but didn't think about Jones being expected to crash inside. Good catch.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-12-2022, 11:26 AM)ochocincos Wrote: They listed Chase as having 314 run blocking snaps, Higgins with 197.
So it's possible that they have seen something in those 314 run blocking snaps that we haven't to give Chase a lower run blocking score.
I'm sure as hell not going to go back and watch all of Chase's snaps through the season to make my own grade lol.

No, me either. But Taylor has mentioned an emphasis on WR blocking, and I personally think they’re all pretty good at it. Boyd probably being the weakest, and Morgan the best.

[fredtoast]

I am not saying the run blocking is meaningless for a WR, but you can't give as much weight to it as other factors when grading WRs.

It would be like having a Center in basketball who is leading the league in rebounds and blocks, but ranking him lower than others because he does not have a lot of assists.

Deion Sanders would probably have been a middle of the pack CB in PFF because of his tackling.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2022, 11:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not saying the run blocking is meaningless for a WR, but you can't give as much weight to it as other factors when grading WRs.

It would be like having a Center in basketball who is leading the league in rebounds and blocks, but ranking him lower than others because he does not have a lot of assists.

Agreed.

But I think the difference between Higgins' 84.5 and Chase's 83.1 is miniscule.
Clearly, the nearly 20 point difference in run blocking didn't affect Chase THAT much.
It may have dropped him a few points, but anything above 80 is considered really, really good.

We should just be happy that the Bengals have multiple WRs who PFF (and others) considers to be near the top.

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2022, 11:27 AM)Wyche Wrote: Didn't even consider the naked boot. I believe you are correct. I considered the edge would be "neutralized" by the rollout, but didn't think about Jones being expected to crash inside. Good catch.

Yeah, Cinci ran the same play to open up the game against Jacksonville in week four. I cut the GIF off for sizing, but it was a 33 yard gain. 

 

[TecmoBengals]

(01-12-2022, 11:12 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Not defending Fred, but a TON of people said he was overrated as sack numbers were not high. On Twitter, CJ, here, etc.

The loudest were the ones who were pissed though, so it stands to reason as to why one would think that few were happy.

I'm admittedly too lazy to look it up and hope I'm not misremembering, but when Hendrickson was signed, I thought the thread sharing the signing was littered with criticism about how Lawson should have been kept? Oh well, hindsight is everything and the outcome was great for the Bengals.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-11-2022, 10:20 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It could definitely go a long way. I think they have a product that could be valuable, but I catch their mistakes from time-to-time and it makes me skeptical of what I am seeing. For instance, they credited Jonah Williams with a sack on this play. I've brought this up a couple of times since then, but it's wrong and having it affect his grade when it wasn't his assignment can be frustrating if you're trying to genuinely use those grades. 

I don't think there's any doubt you can find multiple instances every week that are head scratchers. It should be taken in context for what it is; a way to compare players that is pretty subjective. If you have the right mindset and don't take it as the gold standard, there shouldn't be any issues. 

It's just another way to look at things and discuss them. 

[KillerGoose]

(01-12-2022, 11:48 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't think there's any doubt you can find multiple instances every week that are head scratchers. It should be taken in context for what it is; a way to compare players that is pretty subjective. If you have the right mindset and don't take it as the gold standard, there shouldn't be any issues. 

It's just another way to look at things and discuss them. 

Which is probably the problem. I think people WANT an objective way of saying "This guy is better than that guy" or "XYZ is the 4th best receiver in the league". It's nearly impossible to quantify those things, though, at least for some positions. PFF kind of tries to offer that and people run with it. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-12-2022, 11:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed.

But I think the difference between Higgins' 84.5 and Chase's 83.1 is miniscule.
Clearly, the nearly 20 point difference in run blocking didn't affect Chase THAT much.
It may have dropped him a few points, but anything above 80 is considered really, really good.

We should just be happy that the Bengals have multiple WRs who PFF (and others) considers to be near the top.

This.

And a QB that’s grading out as ELITE.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-11-2022, 10:41 PM)basballguy Wrote: While i'm not trying to make a case for PFF grades being wonderful, i'm fairly certain they state somewhere on their site how they grade players.  It's something like each play starts at 0.0 and can go as high as 2.0 or as low a -2.0...been a long time since I've looked at it...i forget what they do with the points after that. 

The problem I have with PFF scoring is they'll hire any basballguy, fredtoast, Truck, or whoever to do the scoring...to them it's simple entry level contract work.  It's not professionally trained sports analysts.  They give you light training and let you do the grunt work for them.  It ends up all being purely subjective to the person doing the grading.  

They've changed somewhat over the years. I think they have more people that were actually in the game in some capacity now. As for each game, every one is viewed by at least 2 people before grades are finalized. If there's a discrepancy between those 2, a 3rd set of eyes looks at it and they come to a dertermination. 

I think it's progressively getting better but it still should only be viewed as one tool to look at to compare how guys at the same position group do their job, against their peers. 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2022, 11:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This.

And a QB that’s grading out as ELITE.

I do think the hardest positions to grade are probably OL, LB, and DL.
There are a lot of things they do that don't really build stats.

With that said, I don't have the time nor interest to go watch all these players on every snap, so I typically trust someone who is getting paid to do that. Even though they may not be the best-equipped at doing it, they're definitely looking at these players a lot closer than I and most fans are.

[TecmoBengals]

(01-12-2022, 11:51 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Which is probably the problem. I think people WANT an objective way of saying "This guy is better than that guy" or "XYZ is the 4th best receiver in the league". It's nearly impossible to quantify those things, though, at least for some positions. PFF kind of tries to offer that and people run with it. 

I think people want this when they narrow in on wanting to be right about their opinion. I like the subjectivity of hot takes in sports and having the impromptu discussions with friends or you fine people on this forum about which players are best. I appreciate both the statistical takes and the emotional views people bring to such debate.

What your post reveals though, which is good to make note of, is that it is hard to bring objectivity to subjective conversations.

Random, but I like when you post stats and also make an effort to explain your argument. I think too many posters just post a random stat with a mic drop thinking they enlightened the Bengals community. You actually know how to develop your opinions with support. Props to you dude.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-12-2022, 10:38 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: This is an interesting thread to follow. Contextualizing how a person evaluates a player's talent is important and this thread shows there are many ways to look at on field success. We have traditional back-of-the-football card stats, advanced metrics, PFF ratings, the 'ole eye test, and I assume other tools for fans to use.

I don't want to go overboard with a diatribe suggesting we, as forum posters, have a sense of responsibility to better clarify our arguments when using any of the frameworks I mentioned for discussing a player; however, it does seem important to contextualize one's view to ensure everyone is having the same discussion.

Chase is sweet bro, yard and TD records or Chase is sorta sweet bro, PFF rating lower than Tee is like having two separate discussions where arguments conflict and become clouded.

PFF sure does give a vibe from time to time as being made up nonsense, I contend.

I'd say it's more misunderstood than made up. They have several different grades for each player, but those grades are not averaged to give the player an overall grade. 

The overall grade has it's own formula and just muddies the water a bit more. For example; If WR #1 ran 80 true pass snaps and blocked on 20 snaps and WR #2 ran 30 true pass snaps and blocked on 70 snaps, averaging out their scores would be unfair to both of them, for different reasons. 

If it's sketchy for a particular Bengals player or two, it's sketchy for everyone in the league. That's the way i look at it, they're all in the same boat and it's all subjectively viewed anyway so i don't really get why there's such a stink about it.