Should Marvin Lewis be in the Ring of Honor some day?

[TecmoBengals]

Imagine how they could write up his RoH status on the team website:

"Marvin Lewis' tenure as the Bengals head coach started with a roar by getting the franchise out of the jungle and into the light of modern NFL operational standards. Longstanding scrimping by ownership gave way to a head coach who understood economizing fostered losing. Marvin Lewis finished with a 131-122-3 coaching record. Average among NFL head coaches, yet pretty good by Bengals standards. His 7 playoff appearances with no wins remains an all-time NFL record."

[J24]

Easy yes.
He is the only coach with a winning record under Mike Brown
All time winningest coach in Bengals History
4 division titles
Coach of the year in 2009( The equivalent to an MVP season for a coach)
And drafted 2 future HOF in Whitworth & Geno

[Shake n Blake]

(01-19-2022, 01:43 PM)BengalRed Wrote: It isn't just the longevity, it's the number of playoffs. A few of them were out of his control, a fumble by Hill, a meltdown by Burfict and Pacman, fumbles by Andy and Gio, a playoff game in which playmakers were out with injury. Plus he had to deal with Mike Brown's stubbornness over taking on players who were always in trouble, and his refusal to spend money on free agents. I think he will get in but not anytime soon. People tend to forget the bad stuff over time. I just hope it isn't posthumous.

Lots of excuses here. Any time you lose, it's easy to find some valid looking excuses.

In the end, he had 7 (!) cracks at it and couldn't get it done.

(01-19-2022, 02:49 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Different angle for looking at Lewis' career that might sway my "No" vote for Marvin for a "maybe or Yes" argument:

- Only 28 more NFL head coaches have won more career games than him.
- Only 43 coaches have won 100+ career games as a head coach; this includes Lewis.
- Among the coaches with 100+ wins other names who hover around the .500, average W/L mark are Dan Reeves (.535), Chuck Knox (.558), Jeff Fisher (.512), Tom Coughlin (.531), Mike Shanahan (.552), John Fox (.520), John Gruden (.511), and Norv Tuenr (.483).

Another "No" reason: Only 16 NFL coaches have lost more games than Marvin Lewis.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

Most of those guys (all?) have Super Bowls on their resumes though.

(01-19-2022, 03:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: See, this is where I run into issues. I would love to see Sam in the ring, but if Marvin is a definite no...then I don't see how Sam gets in. He only had 3 winning seasons in 8 years and a losing record overall. Forrest may be the most qualified (having a winning record and a SB appearance) but was only here 4 years...so I'm not sure you could put him in either.

Hell, even Paul didn't get in for his coaching with the Bengals, but for his overall impact on the game and bringing pro football to Cincinnati. 

The strike year hurt Sam's overall record. He was playing with scabs and didn't even bother installing his sugar huddle or most of his offense.

Take away that year and he was over .500 (57-55 with a Super Bowl and several playoff wins on his resume. That's worthy.

I don't see anyone else as worthy other than Paul Brown, and that's simply because he's the founder.

[*jason*]

(01-19-2022, 04:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lots of excuses here. Any time you lose, it's easy to find some valid looking excuses.

In the end, he had 7 (!) cracks at it and couldn't get it done.


Most of those guys (all?) have Super Bowls on their resumes though.


The strike year hurt Sam's overall record. He was playing with scabs and didn't even bother installing his sugar huddle or most of his offense.

Take away that year and he was over .500 (57-55 with a Super Bowl and several playoff wins on his resume. That's worthy.

I don't see anyone else as worthy other than Paul Brown, and that's simply because he's the founder.

I wonder how many coaches are in other teams' Rings of Honor for just making a Super Bowl... I'm definitely a Sam Wyche fan, and I think I think more highly of Marvin than many, but I wouldn't put either of them in. Honestly I wouldn't put but a few more guys in in the near future... Boomer, Dillon, Chad, Curtis. I'm sure there's an obvious ommission on my part, but I'd keep it pretty exclusive.

[TecmoBengals]

(01-19-2022, 04:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Most of those guys (all?) have Super Bowls on their resumes though.

My take is "No" on Lewis. I was attempting to look at the "Yes" vote through a different lens. I agree, the Super Bowl, and winning it, on the resume is important.

[Frank Booth]

No

[Bengalholic]

(01-19-2022, 04:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lots of excuses here. Any time you lose, it's easy to find some valid looking excuses.

In the end, he had 7 (!) cracks at it and couldn't get it done.


Most of those guys (all?) have Super Bowls on their resumes though.


The strike year hurt Sam's overall record. He was playing with scabs and didn't even bother installing his sugar huddle or most of his offense.

Take away that year and he was over .500 (57-55 with a Super Bowl and several playoff wins on his resume. That's worthy.

I don't see anyone else as worthy other than Paul Brown, and that's simply because he's the founder.

Yeah, but if we play 'if's and but's' then you have to take away Marvin's year without Carson...which means his record is actually 127-111-2. You would also have to discount the 2005 and 2015 playoff games because he didn't have his starting QB. It doesn't work like that though, at least IMO. Your final numbers are what they are. 

I love Sam, I respect Marvin...but Forrest may be more qualified than both...and I don't know that he gets in either. 

Until a Bengals HC wins a SB, I don't really see a coach in the ring, outside of Paul of course.

[Frank Booth]

I get it, he took this team from regular season laughing stock into a playoff laughing stock, but it’s still mediocrity at the end of the day. That shouldn’t be rewarded.

[BengalFanInNJ]

Yes.

Let’s not overlook the fact that he took what was considered the worst franchise IN ALL SPORTS, and made them contenders and respectable. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he here probably a year or two too long? Yes. But, what he helped with getting this franchise out if the dark ages is huge and I will always attribute that to him.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-19-2022, 05:17 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Yes.

Let’s not overlook the fact that he took what was considered the worst franchise IN ALL SPORTS, and made them contenders and respectable. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Was he here probably a year or two too long? Yes. But, what he helped with getting this franchise out if the dark ages is huge and I will always attribute that to him.

No one is overlooking it. That's not Ring of Honor worthy. He's not the only coach that could have done that. That's pat on the back "hey, good job" worthy. 

[SuperBowlBound!]

(01-19-2022, 03:10 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: We are in agreement there. No coach currently deserves to be in, other than PB. 

I agree with this. 

It is Super Bowl or bust for coaches. 

Players are different they can only control their own performance.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(01-19-2022, 01:52 AM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: Who y'all got for two votes next year?

My first thoughts are Willie Anderson (HOF level player) and Dave Lapham (Super Bowl lineman and essential broadcast legend). I voted Willie the first time so he's kind of a lock.

I am not sure when Willie Anderson gets in but he would be a First Ballot Ring of Honor member for me. Probably the second best Bengal career we have ever had up to this date. How he is not in the NFL Hall of Fame is a joke.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-19-2022, 05:03 PM)jason Wrote: I wonder how many coaches are in other teams' Rings of Honor for just making a Super Bowl... I'm definitely a Sam Wyche fan, and I think I think more highly of Marvin than many, but I wouldn't put either of them in. Honestly I wouldn't put but a few more guys in in the near future... Boomer, Dillon, Chad, Curtis. I'm sure there's an obvious ommission on my part, but I'd keep it pretty exclusive.

Agreed. We have enough guys with legendary careers to fill it out. No need to scrape.

(01-19-2022, 05:11 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, but if we play 'if's and but's' then you have to take away Marvin's year without Carson...which means his record is actually 127-111-2. You would also have to discount the 2005 and 2015 playoff games because he didn't have his starting QB. It doesn't work like that though, at least IMO. Your final numbers are what they are. 

I love Sam, I respect Marvin...but Forrest may be more qualified than both...and I don't know that he gets in either. 

Until a Bengals HC wins a SB, I don't really see a coach in the ring, outside of Paul of course.

Injuries are part of the game though, holic.

Coaching a bunch of plumbers and mechanics against some teams that have actual players is not. It wasn't even actual NFL football for much of that year.

Even if you count that, his resume is still better than Marv's. We'll always remember 1988 and even 1990. What is Marv's iconic moment or year? What was his crowning achievement?

I'll agree that - maybe - no coach is worthy, but I'd certainly throw Sam in before Marv.

[leonardfan40]

This turned out to be a very good poll. When I read it the first time I expected a blowout for “no”….I am genuinely shocked by these poll results. I gave Marvin a lot more credit and leash than a lot of people and even I don’t see how you could put him in a ring of honor.

I don’t agree one bit with anyone who voted yes but very interesting that it’s still neck and neck.

Maybe if we were actually in charge of the whole ring of honor there would be some different results here. If people had to cut it down to a top 15-20 that were allowed in max I doubt Marvin has much chance of beating out a lot of the players he’d be competing against.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-19-2022, 07:14 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: This turned out to be a very good poll. When I read it the first time I expected a blowout for “no”….I am genuinely shocked by these poll results. I gave Marvin a lot more credit and leash than a lot of people and even I don’t see how you could put him in a ring of honor.

I don’t agree one bit with anyone who voted yes but very interesting that it’s still neck and neck.

Maybe if we were actually in charge of the whole ring of honor there would be some different results here. If people had to cut it down to a top 15-20 that were allowed in max I doubt Marvin has much chance of beating out a lot of the players he’d be competing against.

I'm shocked it's so close as well.

That said, you usually need an overwhelming majority to make the HOF or things of that nature.

So if our vote was needed, Marv wouldn't make it. I guess 50/50 is fitting, because that's the type of career he had.

IMO, if we're going to throw Marv in, we may as well throw Dalton in there as well.

[Bengalholic]

(01-19-2022, 07:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Injuries are part of the game though, holic.

Coaching a bunch of plumbers and mechanics against some teams that have actual players is not. It wasn't even actual NFL football for much of that year.

Even if you count that, his resume is still better than Marv's. We'll always remember 1988 and even 1990. What is Marv's iconic moment or year? What was his crowning achievement?

I'll agree that - maybe - no coach is worthy, but I'd certainly throw Sam in before Marv.

Yeah brother, but every coach had to deal with 'plumbers and mechanics' to different extents for 3 games. Only 15% crossed the picket line, and he only went 3-9 with regular players. Not sure how Sam can get a special exemption for that.

On Marvin's achievements...I would say 5 straight playoffs appearances and 7 in a 10 year stretch is pretty impressive, especially given the franchises history. Being able to bring this franchise out of the dark ages and back into relevance is something that some will dismiss, but it was a monumental task and he pulled it of.

Of course, the failures are glaring too, and they have to be taken into account and I've been very critical of them over the years. When you look at all the coaches. outside of Paul, I think I'm becoming more convinced that none of them are deserving of the ring.

[Interceptor]

Marv overstayed his welcome. A lot of coaches would have been fired 10 years earlier. But he was given extra chances, more than anyone cares to count, and still produced nothing. He gets us to the playoffs and then proceeds to shelve what got us there and go all vanilla. It's as if his goal was to get to the playoffs and his job is done. I will give him a mulligan for the first playoff game, but not the rest.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-19-2022, 07:18 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah brother, but every coach had to deal with 'plumbers and mechanics' to different extents for 3 games. Only 15% crossed the picket line, and he only went 3-9 with regular players. Not sure how Sam can get a special exemption for that.

They played the first 2 games, then played with scabs for a month, then tried to come back like nothing happened. 

Just look at Boomer's yearly stats, and it's easy to see when the strike year happened:

1985: 7-7 record - 93.2 passer rating
1986: 10-6 record - 87.7 passer rating
1987: 3-9 record - 73.2 passer rating
1988: 12-4 record - 97.4 passer rating
1989: 7-8 record - 92.1 passer rating
1990: 9-7 record - 77.0 passer rating

If you want to say Sam didn't handle the strike well, fine. I agree with that. But all I'm saying is those weren't normal circumstances like an injury or something.


Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

[grampahol]

If Marv ever gets in Zac will beat him just because of playoff record and that's even if ZT loses the next 40 playoff games in a row..  lol

[Bengalholic]

(01-19-2022, 07:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They played the first 2 games, then played with scabs for a month, then tried to come back like nothing happened. 

Just look at Boomer's yearly stats, and it's easy to see when the strike year happened:

1985: 7-7 record - 93.2 passer rating
1986: 10-6 record - 87.7 passer rating
1987: 3-9 record - 73.2 passer rating
1988: 12-4 record - 97.4 passer rating
1989: 7-8 record - 92.1 passer rating
1990: 9-7 record - 77.0 passer rating

If you want to say Sam didn't handle the strike well, fine. I agree with that. But all I'm saying is those weren't normal circumstances like an injury or something.


Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.