How much cap space do we have.

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2022, 04:57 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: If it resulted in a super bowl… Does it matter?

I am not the kind of person who criticizes decisions based on hindsight.

[Bengalbug]

(02-26-2022, 06:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the issue people don’t ever acknowledge, Cincinnati is relatively cash poor in relation to other teams. The reason Cincy doesn’t restructure is the same reason they don’t tend to spend big in FA, it requires large amounts of cash. People act like the NFL being a cap league creates a level playing field but cap can be bought if you have enough cash, in fact the cap realistically doesn’t exist if your willing to spend enough cash constantly.

Cash is not cap, cap is just an accounting method. People assume all teams have hordes of cash sitting around and the reality is some do and some don’t. We don’t so while there are ways to circumvent the cap it’s better for people to assume in our case the cap is in fact the cap.

I’d imagine the bengals made more money this year than in the last 30? Spend money to make money

[Bengalbug]

(02-26-2022, 06:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not the kind of person who criticizes decisions based on hindsight.

So you are the kind of person that would rather do the way we have for 30 years and hope for better results? Literally every SB winning team is cap creative.

[Au165]

(02-26-2022, 10:25 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I’d imagine the bengals made more money this year than in the last 30? Spend money to make money

Doesn’t quite work that way, they don’t really make all that much more with a single good season. They realistically have to start squirreling away money now for Burrows extension because it’ll be that tough to make work cash wise. When you look at how much actually cash they’ve spent the last few years you can see they’ve pushed it pretty far to this point but I wouldn’t expect that spending to keep up forever.

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2022, 10:26 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: So you are the kind of person that would rather do the way we have for 30 years and hope for better results? Literally every SB winning team is cap creative.

Last off season the Stealers had to cut players for cap reasons and it hurt them this year.

The best teams don't swing wildly from year to year from going "all in" and then folding.  You can move cap space down the road, but you can't make it disappear.

The best teams develop draft picks to step in and start when a vet demands too much money.  No team can be good for any extended period of time on free agents.  The math does not work.  You have to get a decent amount of production from some players on their first contracts.

 

[Luvnit2]

(02-26-2022, 06:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the issue people don’t ever acknowledge, Cincinnati is relatively cash poor in relation to other teams. The reason Cincy doesn’t restructure is the same reason they don’t tend to spend big in FA, it requires large amounts of cash. People act like the NFL being a cap league creates a level playing field but cap can be bought if you have enough cash, in fact the cap realistically doesn’t exist if your willing to spend enough cash constantly.

Cash is not cap, cap is just an accounting method. People assume all teams have hordes of cash sitting around and the reality is some do and some don’t. We don’t so while there are ways to circumvent the cap it’s better for people to assume in our case the cap is in fact the cap.

The Bengals are now worth billions and 100% controlled by the Brown family. They could borrow hundreds of millions if needed based on the equity position. I do believe many teams borrow money in order to pay these large bonuses handed out. 

The value of the Bengals and all NFL team rises every year, so since they don't have a lot of debt, they can easily get a bank to loan them money and ay a low interest rate.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-27-2022, 12:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Last off season the Stealers had to cut players for cap reasons and it hurt them this year.

The best teams don't swing wildly from year to year from going "all in" and then folding.  You can move cap space down the road, but you can't make it disappear.

The best teams develop draft picks to step in and start when a vet demands too much money.  No team can be good for any extended period of time on free agents.  The math does not work.  You have to get a decent amount of production from some players on their first contracts.

 

You are right. LA Rams will be very short lived and definitely looking at a free fall in 2023

[Nickslycat]

(02-27-2022, 01:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The Bengals are now worth billions and 100% controlled by the Brown family. They could borrow hundreds of millions if needed based on the equity position. I do believe many teams borrow money in order to pay these large bonuses handed out. 

The value of the Bengals and all NFL team rises every year, so since they don't have a lot of debt, they can easily get a bank to loan them money and ay a low interest rate.

The result of the Bengals making the super Bowl, will result in a huge uptick in cash.  
I have season tickets in section 142.  My cost has increased $300 per seat.  I’m assuming every ticket in the lower section, has increased $300.  20000 x $300 6mil.
Last season, based on preseason attendance, the bengals sold 35000 season tickets.  They will sell 30000 more this season 30000 x $800 = 24 mil.  Based on simple analysis, the Bengals will make 30 mil, more in season ticket sells.
This does not take into account increased club seat sells, and luxury suite sells, probably adds another 5 mil.
So just in increased ticket sells, the Bengals add 35 mil. In cash.
It does not even count the bengals share of playoff and Super Bowl revenue.  I have no clue.
I also didn’t take into account increased concessions, increased merchandise sells, increased parking revenue, increased revenue from new tv contracts, (prime video thurs night package).
I’m assuming this number is around 70 million dollars, per year for every year the Bengals are Super Bowl contenders, say the next 10 years.  700 Mil. In new cash.  Winning pays!
On a personal note, I sold 4 games for $2400 cash, so I made $200 cash, and essentially made the other 5 games free.
I won the season ticket lottery, bought 2 Super bowl tickets for $3200, sold them for $8800.  Winning pays!

[Soonerpeace]

(02-26-2022, 06:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the issue people don’t ever acknowledge, Cincinnati is relatively cash poor in relation to other teams. The reason Cincy doesn’t restructure is the same reason they don’t tend to spend big in FA, it requires large amounts of cash. People act like the NFL being a cap league creates a level playing field but cap can be bought if you have enough cash, in fact the cap realistically doesn’t exist if your willing to spend enough cash constantly.

Cash is not cap, cap is just an accounting method. People assume all teams have hordes of cash sitting around and the reality is some do and some don’t. We don’t so while there are ways to circumvent the cap it’s better for people to assume in our case the cap is in fact the cap.

The Browns aren’t cash poor. They got hit hard by the pandemic but this year was the gold rush. 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl? I didn’t realize how much the NFL shares or pays of the Super Bowl expenses. They will never be free spenders like a lot of teams with billionaire owners

[Bengalbug]

(02-27-2022, 12:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Last off season the Stealers had to cut players for cap reasons and it hurt them this year.

The best teams don't swing wildly from year to year from going "all in" and then folding.  You can move cap space down the road, but you can't make it disappear.

The best teams develop draft picks to step in and start when a vet demands too much money.  No team can be good for any extended period of time on free agents.  The math does not work.  You have to get a decent amount of production from some players on their first contracts.

 

From an article today…

And the cap angle is overblown. Teams know how to manage the annual spending limit, and that will get easier and easier as the annual spending limit shoots higher and higher, given the huge increases in broadcasting rights and gambling revenue.

If the Packers want to pay Rodgers $50 million per year, they can. The question is whether that even matters at this point. If Rodgers decides he wants out, the promise of $100 million to stay for two more years won’t matter.

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2022, 12:57 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: From an article today…

And the cap angle is overblown. Teams know how to manage the annual spending limit, and that will get easier and easier as the annual spending limit shoots higher and higher, given the huge increases in broadcasting rights and gambling revenue.

Whoever wrote this article is just wrong.

Teams may "know how to handle the cap" but facts prove that it includes cutting players and replacing them with cheaper players.  All you have to do is pay attention to free agency every year.  There are always guys who are released for cap reasons.

Any team can push payday down the road, but they can't make it disappear.

If we had a core of older players and the window was closing I'd be more likely to sacrifice the future for one shot at a Super Bowl.  It worked for the Rams this year.  But look at the Bronco fans.  They won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning 7 years ago but have not been back to the playoffs since.  This was their 5th straight losing season.

[Au165]

(02-27-2022, 12:42 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The Browns aren’t cash poor. They got hit hard by the pandemic but this year was the gold rush. 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl? I didn’t realize how much the NFL shares or pays of the Super Bowl expenses. They will never be free spenders like a lot of teams with billionaire owners

Huh? They don’t really make any more by playing in the Super Bowl. The “value” of the franchise may increase but actual cash on hand is not really impacted, not at any meaningful level when we are talking about hundreds of millions in cash that gets paid out in free agency.

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/football/2022/nfl-playoffs-generate-no-financial-windfall-1234658372/amp/

That’s actually a good article explaining why winning doesn’t actually mean money.

[Bengalbug]

(02-27-2022, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Whoever wrote this article is just wrong.

Teams may "know how to handle the cap" but facts prove that it includes cutting players and replacing them with cheaper players.  All you have to do is pay attention to free agency every year.  There are always guys who are released for cap reasons.

Any team can push payday down the road, but they can't make it disappear.

If we had a core of older players and the window was closing I'd be more likely to sacrifice the future for one shot at a Super Bowl.  It worked for the Rams this year.  But look at the Bronco fans.  They won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning 7 years ago but have not been back to the playoffs since.  This was their 5th straight losing season.

I would like to imagine that Mike Florio know more about footbal than either of us.

If you think otherwise, you should quit your day job, which was the same as him… and start writing about football.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/27/so-what-if-aaron-rodgers-wants-50-million-per-year/

And the broncos won the SB in spite of manning. But usually without above average qb play, you don’t make it to the SB. Even still, they have 3 more SBs than the bengals. I would venture to guess every bengals fan, except you, would take a SB and then 7 years of not reaching the playoffs. Imagine if the packers were not idiots and had drafted tee Higgins instead of Jordan love (planning for the future), they would have most likely faced the chiefs last year in the SB. In turn, we may not have had that opportunity.

If there was ever a time to go all in, it would be before, not after we have to pay Joey and the boys.

[Au165]

(02-27-2022, 01:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The Bengals are now worth billions and 100% controlled by the Brown family. They could borrow hundreds of millions if needed based on the equity position. I do believe many teams borrow money in order to pay these large bonuses handed out. 

The value of the Bengals and all NFL team rises every year, so since they don't have a lot of debt, they can easily get a bank to loan them money and ay a low interest rate.

The league has a maximum amount of leverage for any team, it is not value based. It is their way of protecting themselves from a Dodgers situation that has an insolvent owner unable to pay their players. The league will even finance things but the issue is after the pandemic many smaller teams already had to tap that fund pretty hard.

Also, the issue is you have to actually pay them back. You are looking at players only but that cash is used for things well beyond players and includes running the entire business. The only team we do know finances on is the Packers and they lost $38 million last year, but usually make about it $70 million, so if your borrowing 100’s of millions every year there is simply no way to pay it back.

Bottom line, and this is well known inside the league, the Bengals are cash poor it’s just the truth. Now their cash poor and you and I’s cash poor aren’t the same but that’s is why you’ve seen shock the last couple years at the actual cash expenditures in free agency. It’s also why they STILL structure contracts in a way to avoid a ton of upfront cash when possible (see Lawson vs Hendrickson last year).

It’ll take a half decade of sustained success to change the financial landscape of the franchise and even then there are still market restrictions that will keep them towards the middle tier of league cash.

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2022, 02:35 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I would like to imagine that Mike Florio know more about footbal than either of us.  

What about the other media experts who disagree with Florio's position?

Why is Florio smarter than all of them?

Everyone agrees that teams can create cap space if they want to.  But many experts say it is not a good idea.  

[Au165]

(02-27-2022, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What about the other media experts who disagree with Florio's position?

Why is Florio smarter than all of them?

Everyone agrees that teams can create cap space if they want to.  But many experts say it is not a good idea.  

Will add, for what it’s worth, many in the league think Florio is a hack often just reposting others reports and adding his own editorial overtop as some sort of fact.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-27-2022, 12:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Last off season the Stealers had to cut players for cap reasons and it hurt them this year.

The best teams don't swing wildly from year to year from going "all in" and then folding.  You can move cap space down the road, but you can't make it disappear.

The best teams develop draft picks to step in and start when a vet demands too much money.  No team can be good for any extended period of time on free agents.  The math does not work.  You have to get a decent amount of production from some players on their first contracts.

 

100% correct.

Teams that "free up cap space" are not finding some miracle way to pay people less money.
They're just adding dead cap into future years.

Bengals haven't typically liked to do this because it means potentially paying players even if they aren't playing, or making it harder to actually move on from players.
Bengals like to make the argument that the players essentially do get guaranteed money because they won't let go of a player until likely the last year of their contract (or at all), but many players don't typically trust that model.

[Tony]

(02-27-2022, 12:24 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You are right. LA Rams will be very short lived and definitely looking at a free fall in 2023

This way of building a team has netted the Bucs and Rams championships the past 2 years...

[Soonerpeace]

(02-27-2022, 04:52 PM)Tony Wrote: This way of building a team has netted the Bucs and Rams championships the past 2 years...

Kroenke ( Rams and wife a Walton) and the Glazers ( Bucs) are billionaires w/o the team. The Browns are not in their realm remotely. And the Rams and Bucs strategy is not a good one long term.

[Chezaugie]

(02-27-2022, 01:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The Bengals are now worth billions and 100% controlled by the Brown family. They could borrow hundreds of millions if needed based on the equity position. I do believe many teams borrow money in order to pay these large bonuses handed out. 

The value of the Bengals and all NFL team rises every year, so since they don't have a lot of debt, they can easily get a bank to loan them money and ay a low interest rate.

Having an over 30 year successful career in banking (including post graduate degrees) you clearly do not understand finance and accounting.